Eagle1993

I still remember getting blasted at summer camp when a few members of my pack and our leaders went out to canoe at night. Full moon, no wind, we were all in life jackets and all passed the swim test. It was an awesome experience and when we canoed in the waterfront director wanted to kick us out of camp and worse for our leaders.

At the same time, I know a Webelos scout who was a friend of my nephews who died on a scout outing because all the scouts were climbing up rocks that were wet from a waterfall. Accidents happen but if the Scouts obeyed the sign that said do not climb that Webelos scout would be alive today.

In general I agree that we have gotten too soft but at the same time we do need to make sure we don't put lives at risk. Perhaps putting in too many rules that soften the program may actually lead to more accidents as leaders get rule fatigue and start ignoring the real important ones.

Finally, I also believe there is the legal factor one must consider. Could you imagine the lawyers and lawsuits that would level the BSA financially if they allowed a completely secret society that resulted in injury? Class action all the way. Emotional trauma. Perhaps even criminal prosecution. We aren't in the 1950s anymore and I don't think the 1950s BSA is achievable in today's legal climate.

I do think we can get a bit more rugged...perhaps we can canoe at night, get kids swimming and even fillet and grill fish for breakfast.

I think the media and GSUSA also spread some false information that is causing confusion. The other issue is that their policy is more "inside baseball" and is difficult to communicate in. 30 second news update. People simply hear Boy Scouts now include girls... and then react.

At the Cub Scout level the feedback has been mixed. In general, I have heard only one person who objected in principle of adding girls to Cub Scouts. Most of the conversations have been around answering why the BSA wants to do this and why would they keep dens single gender.

The single gender dens has been a major sticking point after I bring that up. I essentially have to explain ... yes Pack meetings are coed, pack outings and overnights (with appropriate leadership and separation) are coed but dens and den meetings are single gender. Then I get the comments... so, why can't boys and girls go to the fire station together or earn their whittling chip at the same location and time... more comments start coming.. then my den leaders say they don't care they'll meet together because this policy is dumb. I try and move on to discussions of recruiting more leaders...they ask why as we already have a lot of den leaders. I explain the need for separate den leaders for the girls den. Process repeats.

The final set of comments I get are negative comments regarding GSUSA. These go along the lines of ... I really hate impacting the GSUSA followed by a list of issues they have with the GSUSA and the fact that they believe this wil destroy the organization. Somehow it comes back to blaming the BSA. I try to state the GSUSA is a fine organization ... they stop me and complain about cookie sales and the joke of their cooking badge (apparently they are not allowed to actually cook). So in summary, they are mad that the BSA will end up destroying an organization they despise. Ok.

As Tobia Funke would state "Let the great experiment begin!"

Our CO had a board meeting and passed s resolution that essentially states they support our Pack's decision to either include or not include girls. It seems like a common theme from several COs. I do appreciate that they are leaving it up to us as their involvement has been minimal over the last several years.

@@backpack. I was a Boy Scout starting in 1988 until 1995. During that time we had girl summer camp counselors around our same age and our Troop had a couple of girls that would go with us on trips to BWCA. I think the interactions were mixed. As a SPL I had to go into a tent and pull out two of my Scouts who were " just talking" with the girl counselors and not attending their merit badge clinics. That said, it occurred infrequently and when it did happen I made it clear it wasn't acceptable. On our trips to BWCA we were focused on fishing, canoeing and hiking. The girls were just additional members attending. By the end of the day we were so exhausted we simply hung out at the campfire, talked about the days events and fell asleep in our separate tents.

Yes, I agree there will definitely be additional challenges. That said, if your scout leaders (boys, not adults) have clear expectations of their patrols and scouts, then it can be managed. I do hope they are able to keep Troops single gender for at least several years as I believe it will take the leadership some time to figure out how to handle these situations.

Nope. I'm just stating the this is one benefit that boys could have by adding girls to the program. @@prof stated he saw nothing great for boys. One could argue that helping to change boy's and men's views of girls and woman could be great for them.

Now, I'm not stating that this is a guaranteed outcome nor is is definitely a net benefit for boys.

I was in band, church youth group and sports. I can say without a doubt that my experience in BSA provided an impact on my life that was an order of magnitude greater than any other club or sport. The leadership challenges and experiences far outweighed any single hike, game or concert I was part of. I could absolutely imagine adding girls could have challenged my internal biases. I'm just not sure if it would have taken other aspects of the program away to be a net negative

The one benefit I see for boys is to see peer girls in a leadership position taking on the same challenges they boys are faced with. There was a thread earlier on from a female Venturer at Jambo explaining several sexist comments she received from other Scouts in attendance. She handled it well but I'm actually more concerned about the scouts and boys who didn't stand up. Perhaps seeing more examples of girls from Lion through Eagle will make them better men. Or, this change could just end up an unmitigated disaster.

Understand and makes sense. If they think Troops will fully integrate (which I also think is very likely) their statements and concerns make sense. Also the initial response may not be the final one once all of us get more (any) info.

As far as the FAQ and roll out plan I agree this was a complete miss. I was talking about this with a Cubmaster who said girls aren't allowed to camp in Cubscouts after this change. I told him I thought they were allowed if you have YPT and BALOO coverage plus keep genders separate. He said that wasn't true and that he saw something that stated coed packs can't camp.

I have heard almost nothing from the parents in my pack after I explained the change. The leaders were nearly 100% in support however they are concerned with the impact to GSUSA.

Thanks for your update ... it's good to hear our Scouts' thoughts regarding this change.

@@Tampa Turtle .... was it clear to them that Girls would not be members of Boy Scout Troops but a different parallel program? Are they aware of the Venturing program that has girl members? Is their concern Summer camps where girls can now earn merit badges? I know it's early but I'm wondering why they object to girls joining independent Troops. Their comments about learning from men... is perfectly fine but there are other Troops that have female leaders. Does the fact that other Troops having female leaders diminish their own experience in scouting? I'm just curious as this change definitely impacts existing Cub Scout packs as they can go coed but no one has talked about coed Troops (at least so far). To be clear... I'm not trying to argue, I'm just curious to understand their concerns.

In my experience, agreements among units about who will "take" what groups of incoming scouts only causes headaches. There are always exceptions and surprises with the membership.

 

So in talking to the other two packs, you might say "Our pack leadership has decided to accept girls, if you do not, please direct them to our pack."

 

My $0.02

We have fairly clear alignment in my town's 4 packs. Two are tied to churches and the other two are linked to the two public schools. I think my pack is the only one that did Lions but other than that we have the same admission policy. I do think the addition of girls could change the equation a bit and require us to interact a bit more. I like the idea is simply informing the other packs of the policy change. What are your thoughts about recruiting? Should my pack go in and directly recruit girls from the other school and churches if their packs don't offer a program?

@@lakes_stu I definitely expect some girls to be members of both BSA/GSUSA, including several in my area. GSUSA, in my location, has been handled as an after school activity with minimal parent involvement outside of leaders. Their outings are infrequent and rarely include camping. GSUSA is fairly inexpensive compared to BSA. Even the uniform is an order of magnitude less costly.

So, whille I expect some to remain members of both I think (just a guess) the majority of girls in scouting wil pick one or the other...especially as they age. It will be dependent on what their friends do, where their interests lie and the relative strength of the organizations in their community.

I had a conversation with another pack in our town and they are thinking about staying boys only. Both of our packs are closely tied to two separate public grade schools in our town. One option we just started considering was keeping one of our packs (theirs) as boys only and the other as coed. Then, any family that would want a boys only pack could go to theirs. Any girl in their grade school could join our pack. That way, we may have critical mass to actually implement some girls only dens. Not sure if this is how we will actually go but it may be a good option for the first few years as we transition to adding girls.

@@CalicoPenn.

Great summary. While I am still interested in everyone's opinions on how this was announced and if it is a good idea, I have a pack to run and will be facing these issues head on sooner than later.

I wish the BSA either went all in coed or kept girls out. This policy is going to be a nightmare to implement. Our pack is faced with the options of our Trustworthiness being questioned or crushing the souls of young girls who may want to join. I know in 2-3 years we will figure this out... I just think they setup a very difficult starting point.

Right now, I would rather be fly fishing on the river for our annual salmon run instead of chasing down annual dues, planning our upcoming rain gutter regatta or any one of the hundreds of actions we all do in support of scouting. I do it because my dad did it for me when I was a kid and because I believe it is the best organization for kids to have fun while learning life skills.

I expect our CO to come back and state we are coed. I know our Pack and school and can anticipate the challenges and opportunities. As you stated, we will do our best to obey the scout law! I hope we can use these forums over the next few years to share best practices openly as we all face this transition.

It's funny how policy is pushed aside by practicality in the field.

 

My $0.02

I couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of packs will be faced with either turning away girls or not following the spirit of the policy of single gender dens. Plus we have individual unique situations like the one I mentioned above. I honestly don't know what we will see but I do know we will need plans for these situations and a priority in our mission. Right now, our priority is serving all youth going forward which means we may have situations where we violate the spirit of BSA policy.

I'm curious if other Packs that have started discussion and decided to go coed but are willing to deny individual girls membership or force them into 1 - 2 person dens while there have stong all Boy dens with solid leaders.

We have a current den with a boy girl fraternal twin. They have a single mother who is also the den leader. The girl has been attending den meetings for several years as a sibling. She has dropped out of Girl Scouts and would like to join our pack. Her mom emailed me the day the news came out. Will I force her to now attend different den meetings when the parents, both den leaders and her mother would object? I doubt the girls den would have many members... maybe 2-3 since they are older. Forcing a girl to leave her brother and their den who she has been an informal part of, a single mother to either quit leading her sons den or do double duty and to implement a policy the entire den objects to... is not Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind or Cheerful. Perhaps you can say our solution is not Trustworthy... but I've already had discussions with our SE. Perhaps we are more Loyal to our current pack members than the spirit of the National policy. Yep... probably not fully Obiedent. I don't see Thrifty, Brave,Clean or a Reverent factoring in much. I'm sure we will have all Girl dens with 6-10 scouts that can meet separately. But I don't believe that will be the case in all situations and for someone to throw out accusations that we aren't following the Scout Law shows little knowledge of scouting or situational leadership.

@@numbersnerd ... I doubt anything will come out to state an all girls Bear den and an all boys Bear den can't meet at the same time and place each having their own leader. Not sure how that is not Trustworthy. I'm assuming that is what Chrisos is thinking. We will follow the letter of the rules nationals comes out with... how we follow them will be up to our Pack. We already do that with multiple Tiger dens Who meet at the same time and place. I honestly don't know what direction we will take in terms of den meetings. We need to see the rules from Nationals and discuss with leaders.

As the Cub Scout program is the first impacted, I'm curious on what actions leaders have taken to date and interesting findings. Our pack has discussed this with our COR and our CO will discuss this topic at their upcoming board meeting. Our committee met and agreed to recommend going coed. We sent an email to our parents explaining the current status (no change) along with our committee recommendations and the CO plans.

There is a lot of concern of the damage this will do to GSUSA. Mixed feedback on how we should run dens (coed "on paper" separate) or pure single gender.

@@numbersnerd ... interesting that someone with your handle is referencing tweets as a legitimate guide on the pulse of the public. I think you could keep the number part but fellow nerds may need to pull that card. In my district meetings, my own pack and a couple of other councils I have family in... the volunteers and leaders have been nearly 100% in favor of this change. That said, I wouldn't state that as a true summary of opinion across the entire BSA. You really need to look at the surveys they collected and adjust for the actual BSA demographics to actually get any true reference... and I doubt that wil be shared. I will only say that this is a large country with a significant diversity of opinions. I question anyone claiming to know what the majority of BSA members or non members believe or will act on without survey data. I would also state that sometimes changes should be made for the long term health of an organization even if there is significant debate from its current members.

Again, I ask who is the "WE" and how are the "WE" going to bring in new members and match or increase the losses that this decision is going to generate

 

As a committee chair of a pack, Eagle Scout, long term BSA supporter and parent of a 10 year old Webelos scout and a 6 year old girl who will be a future Cub Scout.... i am one of the "we". I'm sure there are many others.

I certainly hope national quickly sends out some sort of transition plan to packs. I've already have parents of girls sending in emails asking what uniform they should buy and if they can fully participate in the pack now. They saw 2018 and think that means January. I'm glad we had a committee meeting planned for tomorrow so we can fumble our way through this. It will be a long night at the bar (no uniforms at this one).

Really! That is interesting. My primary challenge for recruiting cub leaders is time and training. Even the Webelos leaders were backing out when they heard of the overnight training. The hoops I went through to get leaders trained, now the Wolf leaders also have to sleep over? National has completely lost touch we the program.

 

Barry

I absolutely agree. My volunteers are also soccer coaches, t-ball coaches, help at their church, etc. if they have to dedicate a large portion of a weekend for scouting, they will want to do this with their youth... not a lot of other leaders to train them how to setup a tent. I'm sorry, but most of this training should be online and perhaps a short hands on portion if needed. This isn't scaling Everest or even high adventure. I thought the current training was too long and had minimal value. Maximize any time you get from volunteers with the scouts ... not on overburden some training.

I think it's the units call. Right now the policy is boys only. So if someone is gender fluid they are not eligible. If someone is a girl they are not eligible. Only those that are boys, and today that includes transgender boys, are eligible. Remember that these boys will be using restrooms, showers, etc with other boys. If someone is a girl, I highly doubt they would want to "trick" nationals by pretending they are transgender and identify as a boy with everything else that entails.

I agree this is not an easy situation to navigate but I don't think we are talking about 99% of the youth population. We are talking about 0.3 - 0.6% that are considered Transgender. Assuming half are boys that would mean 0.15 - 0.3% of youth fall into that category... compared to ~50% of youth that are girls. I don't think we need to now add girls to scouts just because we added transgender boys and there may be some others that have fluid gender identities. I'm not saying we shouldn't add girls but I don't see this as a reason we should.

Our schools do not allow Boy talks anymore. We do yard signs all around the school (on public right of way) and in leaders yards for the week prior, flyers at school registration and I send an email to every parent in the school talking about the fleeting time you have as a parent and why scouts are a great opportunity. All of these have links to our Facebook page which we encourage parents to like. I don't know which one or combination works but we had 32 scouts attend join scouts night out of a school of 650. 13 joined so far, adding to all dens and we should have around 14 Lions once they complete their applications. Our pack size dwindled to the mid twenties after we were banned by the school (from any contact .... signs, talks, flyers, etc). The methods above have improved our contact with parents

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/20170916/girl-scout-leaders-not-happy-boy-scouts-looking-to-be-one-stop-shop

"Jeff Hotchkiss, executive director and CEO of the Mohegan Council in Worcester, said the council discussed the matter at a meeting in August. He said the volunteers thought the concept should be pursued.

“The response across the nation is that 75 percent like the concept,†Hotchkiss said. “It’s still undefined as to what it really means. At this point, the national (office) said let’s just keep talking about it.â€"

This is the first BSA official I have heard quoted saying anything about the results of the survey. I don't believe this means anything is imminent but it probably means this issue will not be going away any time soon.

We never have and are not currently recruiting girls for our pack; however Boy and Girl siblings are welcome to attend most activities. We have decided that if BSA adds girls to the program that our Pack would go coed but we haven't decided how to do that without angering the GSUSA (most of our leadership has political leanings that align with the GSUSA). We have discussed looking at joint recruiting efforts and activities in some cases.