Eagle1993

Ever since @CalicoPenn went nuclear a few pages ago this thread seems unrecoverable.  

Agree to disagree 😀

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

A Scout is a Friend to All and a Brother to Every Other Scout ?

 

 

To me this is what is critical going forward.  If you are against girls joining, I understand.  But if you cannot treat girls that are in BSA with the same respect and honor you treat other scouts then it is time to consider your future in scouting.  

The BSA has made a decision that girls are going to be full members in Cub Scouts this year and BSA4G along with OA next year (Venturing/Explorers members eligible).  They also are allowing units to decide to be unisex, which is great.  If as a leader you cannot even stand to see other units that are accepting all scouts that are eligible, even as your own unit is not, then I do agree it is time to consider your further participating in BSA. 

@CalicoPenn

There are great scouters on both side of this issue.  @gblotter should not be chased off.  I don't see this change in the same light as I see discriminating against race, creed or sexual orientation.  Girls have another option and the BSA has been serving many girls in various capacities.  This is truly optional for the BSA and I'm not surprised that some scouters see this as a fundamental change where they can no longer continue.   The fact that @gblotter recognizes he cannot support the program to the point he is willing to leave is honorable.   I support the additional of girls but will be sadden by the loss of these expert scouters. 

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When the activities started changing from what the boys wanted, they slowly lost interest in the coed club.

This is the one major concern I have and the only issue I have heard consistently raised by youth.  If the activities remain the same and there are simply some groups that include girls I don’t see a major negative impact to boys.  If the activities do change, I expect my son and I would also leave (I have no desire to lead a generic youth organization). 

I am hopeful and expect the activities will remain but have to admit there is a risk.  I believe this will somewhat have to do with how many (and which) girls join. 

@hawkins

I agree, but if a scouter is to the point where they can no longer function as a leader due to this change, a new leader may be better for the boys to help them deal with situations where they see another Troop with girls.  Each leader who is opposed to the change will have to make their own decision.

14 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

I spoke to my council this week and all cub camps (day and resident) will be coed for all weeks - which is surprising considering just how few early adopters there are.

Same with our council.  I’m not sure if Boy Scout camps will be treated differently next summer.

6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Interested! Please share a link.

As is often the case with gungho parents, I just got drafted to be the Den Leader of our new girl Webelos Den.

I’m not a Facebook expert and can’t seem to find the link. Go to Facebook and search on “Cub Scout Girl Den Early Adopters”.  Great to hear that your taking on that role and good luck!

If anyone is interested, there is a Facebook page for Early Den Adopters.  Several members from National are present and answer questions regarding policy.  They typically give us files and info as soon as it is released to councils.  You don’t need to part of a Pack to join. They do ask a few vetting questions.  

@Eagle94-A1

Ill see if they want to join this forum.  

Probably shouldn’t run that suggested experiment... I think it probably violates G2SS.  😀

I definitely think there is a variety of Troop cultures and some lead to boys being more accepting of girls than others.  My opinion of girls in scouts goes back to the early 1990s when we had some girls tag along on our high adventure outings (not sure they were called HA then).  We had a great time and all of the boys supported our SMs futal attempt to get them registered.  The Troop we feed already has girls as unofficial members so I’m sure that influences the Boy’s opinion.  

I’ve talked to three SMs in the last 4 days.  The anti BSA4G SM told me none of his boys want this.  One of the pro girl SMs said all of his boys are in support and the other said all but 2.  All live in the same general area and all in the same council... so I just find it interesting to hear the feedback.  I may ask a couple Boy Scouts directly this Saturday when we do SFF.  

In any case, I think the COs should be making decisions based upon their long term strategy and goals.   The boys in the Troop today will eventually move on but the CO will be present indefinitely. In addition, Packs should be watching this as well... they need to ensure any girls they add have a Troop home.

20 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Big difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is who runs the program. Cub Scouts is run by adults, Boy Scouts is suppose to be run by the Boy Scouts themselves. If a troop is truly run by the boys, and they do not want girls, are you going to stop them from running their troop they way they want? And every single boy I've talked to is opposed to allowing girls. In fact, the only people I've encountered gung ho about girls in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are parents. Even the girls I've talked to are not that interested.

What I find interesting is when I talk with Scoutmasters.  The scoutmasters that are gung-ho about adding girls claim nearly 100% of their Troop boys are in agreement and they have girls already asking to join. The SMs who are against this claim 100% of their scouts are against this and they have never seen a girl interested.

Could be a great psychological experiment.   Take a mixed group of scouts and put them into two different Troops.  One led by anti girl leaders and one pro girl leaders.  I bet I can guess the outcome of their votes after a few months...

If you are interested I’ll introduce you to my nephews.  One earned Eagle and is aging out and the other in a different Troop is on his way to Eagle.  Both are pro adding girls.  That way you can say you have met at least 2 Boy Scouts in favor of this change.

3 minutes ago, gblotter said:

LDS already has rules against co-ed camping for youth activities. I doubt an exception will be made to allow co-ed summer camps for LDS Scout troops. If BSA summer camps go co-ed, that could spell the end of LDS Scouting IMHO.

Do LDS Scouts camp in national parks, state parks, areas where Coed venturing units camp?  What is the minimum distance between a girl and a camping LDS Scout?  I’m curious as I expect coed summer camps to exist, but with some separation between boys and girls camp sites.  I’m wondering where the red line is for LDS in terms of camping.

@Eagle94-A1

I think you bring up a great subject regarding aligning Cub Scout coed packs and Troops.  One would think both packs and Troops within one CO and COR would have similar policies.  If Packs and Troops are headed in opposite directions (one coed and one Boys only) it points to weak COR/CO interactions.  We know that many COR and COs have limited involvement so I think it is critical that CCs between Troops and Packs work together.  I would argue a Pack should not add girls before reaching out to understand Troop plans.  If the feeder Pack includes girls but the Troop plans to remain Boys only then the Pack committee should work to find another Troop to feed that is planning to add girls before they decide to accept girls.  

A bit more info regarding our Tiger den. We have two sisters that already attend those den meetings that are fraternal twins.  They had already been participating  with the den unofficially.  By moving our loan Girl Tiger to that den we are looking to get those girls registered as well and form a separate den at the same meeting.  

Before Family Scouting this was a coed den with twin sisters unofficially attending with their parents.  Now we have an extra leader there for the girl(s).  However, I agree it will probably be a coed den after Family Scouting.

2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Is it a min of 4 girls per pack or per den? So far, my daughter's Web den has just 2 but there are some younger girls in the pack.

Initially it was 4 girls per pack as a den can be mixed ages.  I know of a few packs that thought they were going to have 4+ girls but they didn’t come thru; however, no one is asking to have the girls that did register to leave.  However, it seems like some of these packs did not have line of sight to having 4 girls join immediately.  I don’t think this is widespread at all but they are out there.

Quick updates..

Had another den meeting.  This is my first in depth exposure to the Lion program (in addition to BSA4G) and it is a VERY light program.  That said, the girls can easily get through 2 adventures in a 1 hour meeting.  I talked about this with the Bear den leader and she agreed that the girls are developmentally ahead of the boys at this age.  Meetings are still fun and the scouts still need to burn off some energy like the boys, they are just a bit more focused.

Our Tiger girl is officially meeting with the Tiger boys now.  1 Girl, 26 boys.  They have separate leaders but for all practical purposes it is a coed den (if you call a 1 to 26 ratio coed). 

Found out that some councils are not enforcing the minimum 4 girls to start as an early adopter. While Packs cannot sign up to be early adopters after March 15, early adopter Packs can continue to register girls and boys beyond that date.

Similar question was asked to Nationals. Here is a response from one of their reps.

“The objective is to ensure girls have a clear path for Leadership opportunities.  A Troop of mostly boys may only vote for boy leadership keeping girls from having elected leadership positions.  There is also a concern of boys not running against girls on an election thus cutting off opportunity for boys to serve in Leader positions.  That’s why separate troops are important for program delivery.”

26 minutes ago, JustAScoutMom said:

I'm not saying that they have to...the CO has a choice, and I can respect that, but I also can be disappointed at the decision/preference.  However, I would also hope that ONE of them would encourage/welcome this change, as an organization with institutional knowledge can make this much more successful than one that cannot.  I would hate to see any effort towards the spreading of scouting ideals fail.

It is VERY early still.  Both of my sisters are leaders in their Packs and both packs just recently (yesterday and last week) voted to include girls.  You may want to talk to your DE, they would know which units in your District are discussing “Family” packs.

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Really? Speculation is just now going on? I don't speculate. It doesn't matter what size font they print FAMILY SCOUTING on the flyer. I choose the most sensible name and stick with it.

So it's BSA4G until someone proves otherwise.

If they were "Scout Troops", then why does my CO need two of them? The only reason would be because there's two programs. The existing one for boys and a new program for girls who want to do the the things boy scouts do.

My crew never needed two advisors. Why? Because it was one program. Our pack never needed two cubmasters for the same reason.

By pitching it as the separate program that it is, we share an honest vision of what I think most scouters are willing to provide. No double-speak.

Speculation within the source community where this data was presented.  I agree speculation has been going on here for much longer.

What is the girl bear den called?  “Bear Den” .  

What is the girl Cub Scout Pack called? “Cub Scout Pack”

The point is that both girl and Boy Scout Troops could simply be called “Scout Troops” going forward as their programs are identical. 

The only reason I mentioned this was the source.  But I agree it is still speculation, BSA4G is fine with me.

FAQ document indicates changes are coming for uniforms, Boy’s Life, OA, training (including Den Chief training) and various program materials.  They also indicated there will be changes with United Way... 

Speculation is now going on what BSA will call the Girls Boy Scout Troops.  Some are saying that both will simply be call Scout Troops.  So you would have Cub Scouts, Scouts And Venturing.  Who knows...

I think the separate Troops will keep SPLs to the same gender as the PLs and perhaps ease the transition.  

8 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

The Arrow of Light tenure requirement says: "1. Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old."  So if a girl was already 10 years old and in the 4th grade when she joined an early adopter pack (assuming that she joined on January 15), she could meet this tenure requirement as early as July 15.

Thanks for clarifying.  I don’t think I’ve heard of crossovers before a Scout enters 5th grade but it appears possible.   Most of the Packs I’ve seen cross over at the earliest in December.  

Oops. Posted this series in wrong topic.  Could an admin move this one?  Thanks!

Few interesting points...FAQ indicates

boy and girl Troops cannot have the same SM.

boy and girl Troops can meet at same time and place

FAQ document updated 

Program for Older Girl Update and FAQ 3-5-18.pdf

See attached update sent out today by Nationals to SEs.

Family_Scouting_Overview_Presentation_3-5-18.pdf