Eagle94-A1

It may get contentious, and folks have strong disagreements on this site. But I do see a great deal of respect from those here. Unfortunately that is not always the case elsewhere.

I admit I am one of the "Negative Nellies" of late. I am not trying to be the "silent majority" that @The Latin Scot talks about above, but rather shout at the top of my lungs the BSA is headed in the wrong direction. A lot of concerns folks here and elsewhere had are coming to be because the experienced Scouters are being ignored. And it's not only on the local council level, where I am experiencing it, but also at the national level. There were concerns about the membership policy changes causing us to lose Scouts, and the boys would suffer. We lost over 20% of our membership, and I am seeing boys being forced to take a back seat to the girls locally with two "linked" troops. I mention how Pros at the council are ignoring and overruling volunteers, and I am seeing this at the national levels. I've posted how locally the DE will contradict and take over activities from volunteers, and how it caused many Scouters to back away. It is now so bad that I attended a meeting where the council was begging for folks to take over different long-standing council activities. At the national level, we have key volunteers who are not being kept informed. Look at the National Philmont Committee and how they were informed about the mortgage on Philmont months AFTER it occurred. Even the Phillips Trust was not informed about the mortgage, and it appears they have a significant interest in the matter. Another example was the National Sea Scout Commodore finding out about the potential merger of Sea Scouting back into Exploring through a leak! An then there was the Churchill Leak. Does anyone here really think national would have publicly posted the Churchill recommendations and allowed commentary on them if they were not leaked? While some things are off the table, others have for the moment been placed on hold but ":dialogue " will continue. I hope and pray that Mosby and some of the remaining pros at nation can see the issues and fix them. But having been a pro at the council and working in national supply, I do not have a lot of hope. So why am I still around? 1. My sons. 2. My Scouts. 3. I am not giving up on Scouting and will fight for it. EDITED: Just read where the National Director of Learning for Life and Exploring will now have oversight over Sea Scouts and Venturing. But National is not moving Sea Scouts to Exploring "at this time." I guess they are continuing "the dialog that prompted the recommendations."

THIS! Further, it got quite nasty. Getting called a "Conditional Scouter" was mild compared to what people had been called who had concerns and questions about the changes. You had folks with years of experience who not only had their experience called irrelevant and outdated, but also were cursed out, told to leave, etc. Check out some of the facebook discussions of the time. Locally We lost several longtime volunteers with decades of experience because of treatment by other volunteers, and the council pros. And no one has replaced them still. And nationally we lost a bunch. What are the volunteer stats now?

From the research I did a long time ago, I would disagree with the bulk of the cases. The time period the bulk of the current lawsuit abuse claims occurred, the mandatory reporting laws were extremely limited, basically health care professionals and teachers,. And that is the laws existed at all. Remember the first mandatory laws came out in the late 1960s, and some of the current cases go into the 1950s. Those laws expanded who was a mandatory report was over time. And one thing those laws do is protect the person making the accusation. Without the mandatory reporting laws, you make an accusation, and could be hit with libel suit. What was policy was the SE was suppose to counsel the family to press charges. If the family would not press charges, the BSA could not do anything legally. What the policy stated was that the accused was to have their membership revoked, and paperwork and documentation sent to the national office to be placed in the IVF, and Scouter applications were checked against it. Was the policy followed all the time? Sadly no. Some councils would keep the individual registered. Usually these were well known and respected community leaders with a lot of influence and affluence. Did people slip through the cracks and get reregistered? Sadly yes a few did slip through. But they are also cases where folks with similar names were rejected and had to prove they were not the individual in the IVF. And did units not tell the SE of suspected abusers? Sadly yes. I read of a case where the Troop committee had a credible accusation, but the victim's family did not want to put him through a trial, especially against a well known and respected community leader. Instead of telling the council and getting him removed, they put him on probation, without telling parents or the council. If memory serves when he attacked another Scout, and that family pressed charges, the first family then came forward. Please do not think I condone this behavior. In retrospect I realize I was being groomed by my CM, and when he became SM, my gut told me it was time to switch troop. I know 2 of his victims. While working at Scout camp, I was involved in a situation that was happening at the camp. Thankfully we had a LEO on staff to handle the perp, but the 3 kids were in terrible shape.

Sadly there are more parents and Scouters who believe in doing more and filling every minute of a camp out with advancement than there are of us old fogeys who believe in letting the Scouts enjoy themselves. I had a Scout take a MB he already had because he enjoyed the activity, and there was no other way for him to do it at camp. When I mentioned this to other Scouters in the class I was taking, One Scouter said my Scout was wasting his time. When my troop held their own summer camp this summer, yes almost every minute was planned out. BUT the intention was to have make sure the Scouts had enough to do and were having fun, not become school. When certain activities went over their allotted time, Wilderness Survival and Cycling come to mind, everyone went with the flow and had fun. When the Scouts were exhausted and needed some down time, they got their down time and had fun. Everyone, Scouts and adults alike, said this was the best summer camp ever, barring no showers ( they had to use faucets to get clean). The only thing set in stone at summer camp was the Board of Reviews. The troop committee visited us at camp the last night, had dinner with the rest of the adults, andthen BORs commenced. We had to be courteous of the committee's time. And no one had problems with that.

I see the BSA is still lying about Dodgeball stating it "has never been an authorized activity in Scouting" despite showing showing a national representative proof it has been an authorized activity and requesting they change the wording multiple times. In case you don't believe the BSA is lying about this, here is an image from page 30 of the 2010 printing of the 1998 edition of the Scoutmaster Handbook.

I would add high school kids being treated as elementary school kids. And college kids, and some college grads, being treated like the are in middle school kids. I cannot tell you how many high school and college students' parents contacted me about the hospital's job shadowing program. I'm now at a college, and I saw many parents attend advising and registration sessions with their child. I too, don't like it.

Why am I not surprised. And with the large number of layoffs, I bet it won't be considered retaliation. Like I said the good pros either leave, get sidelined to obscure positions, or they get fired. It would have been much, much, much worse. There would have been no input from the membership and volunteers. National would have done whatever they wanted, and there would be nothing we could do because it would be a done deal. IMHO that former professional helped Scouting , and not hurt it, by leaking the info.

@dkurtenbach BRAVO! I could not say it any better. @skeptic, where to begin. You are correct, we do NOT have all the facts and peripherals. BSA has a long history of no tranparency, from the council level all the way up. And their lack of communication to the rank and file adds to the fire. I do know how some pros work, and I can see pros at national trying to buck Mosby. Thankfully Mosby has all the power. And I do hope he wields it judiciously. I have seen SEs remove "troublemaking" volunteers, both from positions on the district and council levels, because they have questions and concerns about the program. In one instance, one longtime volutneer was placed int he Ineligible Volunteer Files not related to any wrongdoing., but for questioning financial discrepancies .As for the problems I see and are concerned about, I will keep harping on them to keep them at the forefront. From all the language in the document, it is only a stay of execution, not a pardon. Some people are thinking it's a victory, when it is not. But I do hope and pray you are correct. @MattR good question. it's because I hope for the best, but am expecting the worse.The situation is like seeing your best friend spiraling out of control because of a drug addiction. You try to do everything to help them out, but it keeps getting worse and worse. I hope and pray that this bankruptcy will be like rehab, gets National clean and sober so they can get on and provide what is needed for our youth. Plus I got my sons and my Scouts to worry about.

Skeptic, Do you honestly believe the National? They have a history of saying one thing, and doing the exact opposite. They have a history of doing polls, and then ignoring them if they posted the results, or never posting the results of the poll. Even the document said it is still an option, just at a later date. Note the bold The NEC also agreed that the following three recommendations will not be considered at this time: Combining Sea Scouting into Exploring, Ending all youth programs at the age of 18, and Sunsetting the Learning for Life curriculum Although we are not moving forward with these recommendations, we will continue the dialog that prompted the recommendations to ensure that we continue to benefit as a Movement from the evaluation and analysis conducted by the Churchill teams that studied those areas. So those of us who have are involved with, or have fond memories of our time in Sea Scouting, OA, and Venturing still see the risk. I think they are "punting" because the leaked Churchill slide caused a major protest of the rank and file. I think National hopes this protest of the Churchill document either A) dies down so they can enact it, or B) try to say it is being forced upon them because of the bankruptcy. Either way the decision has been made, they are just waiting to implement it. I wish I was as optimistic.

For now. BSA does not have a good track record IMHO of following through on their promises.

In the lodge growing up, we had Houma as members. The only time they had a problem with the OA was when one chapter started doing some crazy stuff at powwows. The Houma asked the lodge to handle it, and we did. He reciprocated their help over the years. We had members do research for their appeal for federal recognition. Other former members helped on the cultural side. Long story short, the Jesuits did a good job converting them to Christianity. Current lodge has an excellent relationship with local tribes. In fact one of the local drums on the powwow circuit was formed at an OA event at the main camp.

Yes, we know that there is no current test out option for these courses. But just like BSA approved Dodgeball as a game for Scouts to play, at one time BSA did allow test outs IOLS. It was in the syllabus, and there was a form that had to be filled out.

I admit I got some mixed emotions on this. Grant you the research on this topic I did was over 20 years ago, and more information is now available than when I did it. But here is what I found. Yes some professionals really did screw up and not follow National policy of the day. They did allow folks to continue in the movement when they should have been removed. That is inexcusable. THEY are the ones who failed our Scouts. And yes the BSA did not report a large number of abusers to authorities. However this was a time before mandatory reporting laws were on the books. If the child's parents decided they were not going to press charges, and in the cases I studied it was the majority of cases, then there was nothing the BSA could do legally. If I remember correctly, one concern about pressing charges without the abused's testimony, was the BSA being sued for libel. What BSA could, and did, do was create an Ineligible Volunteer File to cross-reference new volunteer applications against in an attempt to keep out those suspected of abusing Scouts. Even when mandatory reporting laws went into effect, there were limits as tho who were mandatory reporters. Initially it was physicians and other medical personnel, and over decades has expanded. Also each state enacted their own laws. So in some states BSA employees were mandatory reporters before BSA employees in other states. Do not think I am callous towards the victims. I have had friends and neighbors who were victims. And knowing what I know now, I was being groomed by my Cubmaster/Scoutsmaster. I lucked out. When something set off my senses, I switched troops. But I know folks who were abused by him. This was before BSA implemented YP and 2 Deep.

This part gets to me: Blaise, an author and an illustrator who lives in Arkansas, called out the organization In a blog post on Medium last year for allowing white people to imitate Native Americans. “Who asked the BSA to ‘preserve’ Native American traditions, and why can’t Native peoples do that for themselves?” she wrote. “Dancing, donning Native regalia, or utilizing sacred symbols (like Eagle feathers or sacred pipes) are not things that should be divorced from their particular tribal reality and religious meaning.” She obviously does not know the history BSA, OA, and I assume Mic-O-Say, have had. Long story short, when the OA and Mic-O-Say were created, it was illegal for Native Americans to practice their religion and culture. They either went underground, or used the OA as a means of preserving. More on this later

An aspect of NCAP is "branding," National wants all camps to have identical structures. Buildings are predesigned in that there are a limited number of designs you can choose some. So a camp in Maine will look identical to a camp in Louisiana, even if the two camps have different environments and different structure styles would work better in that camp's particular environment. And if a national design will not work at a camp due to local regulations, too bad, it won't be built.

I admit I am very pessimistic. A lot of what is occurring has been predicted here and elsewhere. And COVID doesn't help matters. As much as I would love all three of my sons to make Eagle, I don't know if the youngest will due to everything going on. Oldest will have his ECOH this month, COVID and Weather permitting, And Middle Son is Life. His goal is to get it by the end of next summer. But youngest has not been in long, and is Second Class. And I don't push advancement. I push the skills and self confidence. So even if the BSA ceases to exist, I know my boys have benefited. Plus there are other "Scouting" organizations out there, just not recognized by WOSM.

Could some of the skyrocketing costs be due to NCAP standards trying to make every camp identical and "branded?" We have a camp that needs a bathhouse. Under local codes, no problem to build, got the volunteer manpower to do it, and can get the donations to build it. Told we could not build it because it did not meet NCAP standards. Building a bathhouse to those standards up the cost 4x. We had shelters destroyed in a hurricane. We wanted to build ones that match the 70+ year old ones still in use. Those meet local codes. We cannot build them because they do not meet NCAP standards. The NCAP ones are significantly larger, and designed for summer camps

My comments about showers and water come from the stupidity of the decision. When this was first noted PRIOR TO CONSTUCTION (emphasis) people commented that there were ecologically friendly ways to get be hot water. From painting water tanks green to absorb sunlight and heat up water, to solar heaters, to some others I can't remember. Instead of using these methods during the building process,they now have to pay more to fix the issues.

We also gave WeLOT certification for those doing ITOLS. The two courses were so similar , some actually posted a combined syllabus.

At one time, a test out option was allowed by national. It was for a very brief time. I want to say it was a 2 to 3 year time period when it was allowed. If I remember correctly, that looks like the form National came up with to test out of IOLS. Let me see if I have the old syllabus that allowed it at home. I had a bunch of SMs who had the Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities through their time as youth and young adults, but never did the training. I used folks like that on staff. For example, the geocacher extraordinaire who went to Philmont 2 times, did the orienteering, geocaching, and backpacking stuff. My 3 beader who was "untrained" in his current position because he never took ITOLS, went over the cooking and basic camping info. My 1 time Philmont treker who was a combat medic, yep he taught First Aid. Use your resources.

My apologies. The similarities in names got to me. As for meeting with MBCs virtually, one of the many reasons I dislike it is that the lack of personal contact. Local MBCs know the community, and can help guide the Scouts. Having an MBC in Hawaii working with a Maine Scout does not know the community the Scout is living in, and cannot help much. And I do stand by my comment, even in these unprecedented times. This is a great opportunity for the Scout to get out of their comfort zone, think outside the box, and learn to do things on their own. The more I work with high school and college age students, the more I am seeing a complete dependence on parents and other adults to tell them what to do. They cannot think for themselves. I'm seeing it now with the number of students registering for classes who have parents with them, and the parents are the ones picking classes.

The sash was a symbol of being a Voyager, the French Canadians who explored and traded in the area. Noc Bay has them in stock http://www.nocbay.com/prodDetails.asp?ID=289&link=222 and http://www.nocbay.com/prodDetails.asp?ID=983&link=222 if you know what to look for, ebay can be your friend. i a complete sash and garters set for the price of a sash once.

#1 complaint for my troop when they did summer camp at a local camp was the "ambient temperature." I know the first NSJ there, they could not keep the solar showers in stock.

What about the showers, are they still "ambient temperature?"