Eagle94-A1

IMHO, there should be a separation span. After serving at the unit level, you should be a UC for a DIFFERENT UNIT for years before ever being a UC in the unit where you were a unit leader.

Fred,

I not only agree with you, but would expand it some. Depending upon the unit's leadership you are asked to serve as commissioner for, if you served with the leadership in ANY (emphasis) unit level capacity, it may take years to serve with them as a UC.

You know the situation with me and my CO's troop when I was their acting UC. I was not a leader with that troop, but knew all of the current leadership via the CO's pack. Whenever I tried to help out or offer advice, I was told, "that's not how we do things in the troop," "Scouting has to change with the times," "you don't know what you are talking about," and the two - three hours of complaining about the lack of training in the DISTRICT (emphasis again) when I had to stay overnight with them because everyone left camp except the SM and 2 scouts.. That last one really broke the straw since A) the district offers SM Specific and IOLS once a year, B) council has a total of 9 opportunities each year for that training since each district is responsible for conducting their own course, and C) I specifically planned an IOLS course around THEIR troop calendar so that all of their leaders needing IOLS could get it. Only 1 showed up, the others excuse was "it's too cold to camp."

Sent,

I am so sorry to hear that. I know how much influence a former leader can have, for good or evil.

"High Adventure" doesn't require paying someone to plan, organize and guide. If the scouts (patrols or crews) have been doing scouting adventure by planning and organizing, then doing so for the next level of high adventure is the next logical step.

True, but sometimes the guides can be FUN! When I did the Canadian trip, we had a Canadian Scout troop provide us guides. We had a lot of fun, and a few years later, I was able to return the favor and be a guide for them.

It saddens me that scouting has moved from scouts making their own gear, finding places to camp, and organizing their own adventures to needing to raise money to pay for expensive hi-tech stuff, and extra gadgets and paying for expensive camps and guides.1>

Blame some of that on BSA legal. Some of the simplest, and lightest, equipment to make are some of the various can stoves. Heck the CS leader How To Book even had instructions on how to make them. Now they are verboten.

One thing about gear and expense, yard sales, ebay, craigslist, military surplus, etc are great sources. Key is take care of the gear. As one of SPLs would say, "Take care of your gear like you would take care of your girlfriend. Treat it right and you will will have a long health relationship."

Sad when an eagle scout doesn't know how to plan and organize a basic camping trip without paying someone to do it for them. A Scout is thrifty.

Agree 110%.

While it is possible, I would not recommend it. Sometimes folks need an "expert," i.e. someone not in the unit, to get advice from.

There are local council HA bases you can go to. PAMLICO SEA BASE outside Washington, NC is one that focuses on sailing and kayaking. And there are many others.

Also you can always have your troop plan their own HA trip. Appalachian Trail is popular in my neck of the woods, but also look at canoe treks and sailing cruises. As a Boy Scout, I did a 64 mile canoe trek in the Canadian wilderness. As a Sea Scout, I did a week long cruise with my ship. More work is involved in planning it, but they are cheaper.

My personal view is that Cub Scouts makes a mistake (particularly in Webelos I & II) in not doing at least a little camping. "No outdoors" is frequently the #1 complaint I get from Webelos when I interview them before they cross over and camping is the #1 thing they are looking forward to. I wonder if we lose boys in Cub Scouts over this.

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'Gipper,

I feel for ya. I actually lost a TIGER (emphasis) becasue the pack didn't camp enough for the family ( 3x/year). I know my troop did a "wilderness survival" type campout for Webelos needing an overniter to introduce them to the troop. What started out as an accident, all of our gear being destroyed and finding out the night before the overnighter, became a tradition as the WEBELOS ATE IT UP! (emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting with glee ) When I suggested that a troop do that with the incoming Webelos, one of the CS mom's freaked out and said there is no way the Webelos could do that. When I told her we use to do it every year, she looked at me like I had a thrird eye.

Anotherguy,

If you look at the new requirements, every level has some type of camp out is required. Don't know how the LDS units are going to del with that.

It's called Campcraft and it's obviously aimed at the young boys and girls of the late-50s/early-60s who wanted to taste the adventure of the outdoors... The "requirements" pretty much match those of the Boy and Girl Scouts of the era.

By any chance, is that author William Hillcourt? I know he wrote a few non-BSA books on the topic.

Mike,

I saw a similar situation in HS with the JROTC unit. School wanted the school colors used during for certain events during the school year. So the color guard was expanded to 5 people instead of the usual 4. 2 rifle bearers, US Flag, USMC flag, and school flag.

And with my CS pack, we've had a situation where the pack flag's stand is MIA ( that's a different story for a different time). So we uses the CO's church flag in place of the pack flag. Hopefully the troop will eventually return our stand to the pack.

Let me tell you about the differences between Cub Scout camping and Boy Scout camping

Seriously, as others have said Cub Scout camping is designed more for families that do not camp or do very little. Object is to get them comfortable in the outdoors and HAVE FUN! ( and yes I am screaming HAVE FUN! )

It may get a little more 'adventorous" as a Webelos as he will be preparing for Boy Scouts.

The fun in the outdoors really starts as a Boy Scout when they do thinggs on your own without adults meddling about.

And you can do stuff on your own. We have one dad and lad who are VERY outdoor oriented. The Webelos has already done a section of the AT and another trail!

LeCastor

You forgot the "G.I. JJJJOOOEEE" at the end of your comments.

THANK YOU EVERYONE, the comments and recommendations have been very helpful and needed..

One update as an FYI. My son's first camp out as SPL was suppose to be tomorrow. He started feeling sick this afternoon and has a low grade fever. So he missed out on a cooking competition tonight, and will be missing the camp out tomorrow. I remember the last time a sick kid went camping and infected the entire camp!

Anyway, we were talking, and he feels bad about missing out, like he is letting down his troop. I told him I would contact the SM for him, and not to worry about it. We talked some, reemphasized that he has my full support, his SMs support, and the Scouts' support. He told me his biggest concern is not doing a good job, and letting his troop down. I told him 1) he can always talk to the other adult leaders, and that he doesn't have to do everything, he can and should delegate to the other scouts.

I asked him if he thought if they should include ILST at the lock in coming up, andhe said yes. I was planning on asking the SM for him as I do need to go camping,i'm the designated 2nd leader as a third is on call, but decided he can tyalk to his PLs and ask the SM Monday.

Don't know. Ebay may be a source for everything together. What my son's troop did was go to the dollar store and get plastic plates and cups. We don't have the old mess kits either, but they adapted.

In my 30+ years in Scouting, 1've only met 1 Varsity Scout, and he was going to jambo in 2010.

If I may offer some perspective?

Now I am going assume, and you know what can happen when you assume , that JP has been a leader in Scouting no earlier than 1989 as that is when the concept of an NSP, one big AOL Ceremony (although many packs were doing it that way, it wasn't intended to from my readings), and the concept of First Class, First Year ( or OPERATION FIRST CLASS as it was called) all came about in BSA literature.

So for many folks, the way JP states is the only way they know. Not saying that is correct, and I am not saying it is not. More on that in a bit.

Now I am going to assume, and again you know what can happen , that Stosh has been around since way before the 1989, when the norm was not NSPs, Experienced Patrols, and venture patrols, but mixed aged patrols and Leadership Corps for the senior most scouts. Scouts came into the troop, joined a patrol that was already existing and he may or may not know anyone in the troop. Not saying that is right or wrong either.

Now what I am saying is a troop's program and organization MUST work for them. How the patrols are organized and work doesn't matter, only if the Scouts are getting the program.

I grew up in a mixed aged patrol troop. Older scouts in the patrol buddied up with the younger scouts and worked with them. The two times NSPs were tried, were complete and utter failures, and the PLC decided to go back to the traditional organization of mixed aged patrols. And because we did not have a feeder pack during all but my last year as a youth, we were constantly getting folks into the troop year round. Since getting FCFC was non-existant, there was no emphasis on getting scouts to FC in a year. So what Stosh is describing worked for us.

As an adult, I have been involved with troops that use NSPs, Experienced Patrols, and venture patrols. They have feeder packs that cross over all at once, so a more formal FCFY program can be organized.The unit culture and organization are such that that method works for them.

That's what is great about scouting, as long as certain parameters are followed, there is a multitude of ways to have a program.

JP,

To answer your question, it depends on the Scouts and what they are doing. In 2012, all the Cubs went to the same troop, which got scouts from us only. In 2013, five Cubs went to the CO's troop, which also picked up Scouts from Spring recruiting, and 2 went to Troop B down the road. Troop B also has a feeder pack. This year, all three are going to Troop B. And we are actually doing a joint AOL/Crossover Ceremonies.

Calico,

I hear ya. That's why once he did his first PLC, I dropped the matter. I also told him that I am very proud he got elected, and also jealous as I was never SPL of my troop, only the JLT troop. That put a smile on his face. He likes to one up the old man

As for the ASPL, one of the reasons why I like the former SPL who is up for ASPL or TG is because he will offer suggestions, and then follow and support the SPL's decision. Saw this several times on trips and summer camp. He knows what it is like to be thrown into a POR ( when the troop first got restarted, he was first the PL (one patrol troop), then when it grew the 1st SPL. He's dealt with lack of support, arguing, etc.

Stosh,

By balance and adult led, I think I need to clarify. Balance refers to me doing my job as his dad by showing him how to do things, helping him, and allowing him to be successful, BUT also doing my job as a leader and not helping him too much and actually doing things for him.

I want him to do things on his own and the help and advice I give him not be considered commands from dad.That is my biggest fear, him thinking any advice I give him are commands.

As you can imagine, in working with youth on the Scout level, I've never dealt with my own son before. Never had had to deal with the "Dad factor" and I need to strike the balence.

Troop is currently 18 youth, with 15 active. So 2 patrols are needed. And we are about to get 6 more in a month.

I agree with you, I do NOT (emphasis) think he's ready for SPL. I think he should be focusing on overcoming his nervousness in talking to the SM and get the basic 2-1 skills signed off. I keep telling him he has nothing to worry about, SM has had stutters before in the past, and it will be OK.

I know I need the luck with the PLCs for the next 6 months. One of the reasons I posted about the balancing act is again, I want to help him out and prepare him, but don't want it to be like I am telling him what to do.

In regards to intervention, I had a chat with one of the previous SPLs over the weekend. He's one of the Scouts that my son looks up to, and I have asked him to help out son and support him. Son and SM haven't appointed an ASPL yet, I believe it will occur this weekend, but he's one that has been brought up for that position or TG. He's patient and willing to work with younger guys. PLUS he goes with the decisions of the current leadership, even if it is against his advice. Told me, "It's frustrating when it happens, but they learn." I'm glad his name was mentioned and hope that he can mentor my son like my old SPL did for me when I was a PL.

As for adult leadership being thin, that is an understatement. And I don't see that changing anytime soon either.

As for your advice,

1) Doing that

2) Hoping the person above can be ASPL and mentor him. Also going to mention it to the PLs.

3) This is where the "balance " comes in. He can be hardheaded and determined like his mother. He feels that he was given the responsibility, and that he needs to do his best in the job. I’ve asked him several times if he really feel up to the job, does he think he can handle it, or does he think he needs to step down. I keep getting the same response: I got to do my best because they elected me.

BUT, I know my son’s personality. He’s a perfectionist, and when things don’t go 100% he can get extremely frustrated, to the point he can lose interest. I don’t want that to happen.

4) Unfortunately the troop does have some adult imposed rules for SPL. 1) Must have been a PL (OK I do agree with that one) and 2) SPL cannot run for a second consecutive term (reason I was told was to give him a break and prevent burn out).

From talking to the former SPL above, there have been only 2 people who have been elected SPL prior to my son. Scout A would be SPL, then had to wait 6 months before he could run again. Scout B would get elected, but then A would get reelected once eligible. Then B would get reelected after A.

Now the SM told me he’s going to add a First Class or higher rank requirement. And I admit I’m OK with that.

4) Socratic method, I got it.

You should have seen and heard me when I went to pick him up from that meeting! I asked him several times if he was serious, if he knew what being SPL fully entailed, if he really thinks he can handle it, and if this was a joke. I had the outgoing SPL confirm it wasn’t a joke, and still could not believe it until I got confirmation from the SM. Up until the PLC a week later, I kept asking him if he really knows what he is in for, if he can handle it, and if he thinks it may be better to step down.

As you can imagine this has been a roller coaster of emotions. Proud that he got elected ( I did talk to two of the Scouts who voted for him and they told me they nominated and/or voted for him because of the job he did a PL. Shock because he doesn't have the expereince. Concern because I know how "failure" can get to him. I keep telling him he doesn't need to be perfect, he WILL screw up, and that he needs to learn form the mistakes.

Ken,

Yes, both of us. But son is still a little nervous about doing so. Something he needs to work on.

The challenge with the SM, and one he readily admits, is that someone younger, with more energy and time, needs to be SM. Also we need some ASMs who can commit more time. Currently every ASM, save one, is also involved in Cub Scouts. And the one who is not is involved in shift work, so he cannot get off to help every single meeting. So he is a bit overwhelmed first trying to get the troop running, then keeping it going.

Quazse,

ISLT is one thing that wasn't planned. And it's needed. Definately do not want to do it for him.

What I was hoping was the old Tell, Show Do. Tell him how it needs to be done, Show him once how it is done, and then let him do it.

OK, I need some help and advice to make sure I'm not going off base.

My son's troop just had unit elections. As you know they are a young troop, so there were no rank and/or expereince requirements for SPL. I do not think the scout elected SPL should have been elected since A) he hasn't been in the troop a year yet, B) Is only a Tenderfoot, and C) has only 6 months as PL of the new scout patrol. Yes, my son got elected SPL on the second ballot.

Long story short, the adult leadership is stretched thin, and training hasn't really been done. This is recognized and the goal is to send 2 Scouts to NYLT this summer, but that is then. I got a young (11 year old) Scout who needs help.

And here is where I need to make sure I am not going off base and becoming a helicopter parent.

The PLC has planned their monthly themes and decided where they will be camping or day tripping. But the weekly meetings have not been out. The next month is planned out in detail by the adults ( 2 rehearsals for the AOL and Cross Over ceremony, the ceremonies, and COH). But January is open season. So I'm thinking of having him sit with me, and I make the detailed plans for January's meetings and lock in to show him how it is done. Then with February's plans have him do the work with me assisting as needed. And hopefully by the time planning for March comes, he will be doing it on his own.

Again your thoughts, and THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

Interesting question.

While for a very brief period it the late 1980s to early 1990s it was OK to wear OA sashes at COHs and other formal occasions, if i can find my OAHB from the time I'll post the relevant pages, prior to that time and currently it is not. OA sashes for OA events or doing OA duties, i.e. camp promotions, unit elections, etc.

What may be an idea to spark interest in the OA, as well as get folks pumped up for summer camp, is to have the local OA chapter or lodge do a summer camp promotion at the COH. And if anyone is eligible for the OA do the election, and possibly the Call Out if that is done at the troop level in your neck of the woods, at the COH. The he, and any other Arrowman would have an excuse to wear the sash in support of the camp promo team.

OH and if you do do a camp promo, please remember to invite 2nd year Webelos who may join your troop to the COH.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, my pack does the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies in December. Why that early? For a variety of reasons.

1) Since we have an active year round program, most Webelos IIs are waiting on the "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. " in order to earn the award, i.e. 6 months from June 1st is December 1st.

2)And since our Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts, as soon as they meet the joining requirements: "Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old." we cross them over. I know of only 1 Scout who waited to Cross Over, and the wait was less than 2 weeks, so he could Cross Over with his buddies.

Don't know how the new changes are going to affect my middle son as the new AOL requirements do not have an age requirement to them. And he is already jealous of his older brother camping every month.

3)We do not have to deal with rechartering them

4) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

5) Gives parents plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

That's vital.

6) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to fundraise and pay for summer camp. That ticked me off back in the day when Cub Scouts was 3 years and you Crossed Over in May, I found out about summer camp 2 or 3 weeks before the troop went and could not go .

7) Did I mention the Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts?

And as far back as I can remember, Once you got the Arrow of Light, you Crossed Over to Boy Scouts. So only in the BSA literature would you see the AOL badge on a Cub Scout. BUT you do get to wear it as a Boy Scout.

This is my interpretation of the topic of CS Advancement. If you read the pack and meeting den planning book, as you do the meetings, the Cubs automatically get whatever bead they have earned at the end of the meeting. For example after this weeks meeting, if i was going by the book I would have awarded the 2 Tigers beads they earned that nite. Then you record it on the den advancement report to give to the advancment person in the pack. No need to sign off in the book.

Can I pin it to the forehead of the parent that's paying his son for each rank advancement? Talk about a SM nightmare.

If the cases I'm familiar with are the norm, it will backfire on the parents. In one case the Life Scout only needed to do his service project as he had everything else done, and would have enough time to earn several palms. Incentive was driver's license and car.

For several reasons, my pack now crosses over in December. Reasons include the following:

1) December 1 is the earliest they can cross over with the 6 months since completing 4th grade requirement.

2) Because we do have an active Webelos program, and do year round activities, they are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts.

3) We recharter in January, so by Crossing Over in December, we avoid recharter headaches

4) Most troops are preparing for summer camp in the Jan-Feb time frame, and we want those new Scouts to be able to go to summer camp.

5) It gives the new scouts, and more importantly the new scout parents, time to get adjusted to the troop, get a few Boy Scout camp outs under their belt, and prepare them for summer camp.

6) Did I mention that the Webelos are getting bored and are chomping at the bit to be come Boy Scouts?

I'm kinda like Inigo Montaya, "I hate waiting." And the Webelos I've encountered are like that too.

Stout,

The ones issed to me by my then council were government surplus ones, not official ones. I did buy the BSA leather chin strap for the "nice" cover, but my "used" cover still has a bootlace for the chin strap. I've replaced the bootlace once since 1988.

As for the leather hat band, you can buy them from national. But both of mine are British ones from BP House and have been branded at one of the camps I worked at. I also picked up some plumes while I was over there.

So unless you look really close at my "nice" hat, you can't tell it is not the official BSA one. And with the exception of the black shoelace, my "used" hat looks 100% official too.

I mostly wear one of the two campaign hat I have. The one I earned for completing Brownsea 22 back in the day has been through hurricanes, numerous camp outs, and shot at by German Scouts (don't ask ) is what I mostly wear as it has been "used and abused." Plus it's a great reminder for me when I do archery and bb guns with Cubs. The one I received for staffing JLT is in a hat press and pristine condition, so it' used for ceremonies.

I also wear on occasion the expedition hat, aka "Indiana Jones" becasue it is as good as the smokey, and is crushable, making it easier to wear when I play "pack mule" on family Cub Scout camp outs.

However, since "cold" is a 4 letter word for me, I will very shortly be wearing my toque when camping.

I have to agree with Stosh, if you wait any period of time before transferring, disillusionment occurs and they quit. While I waited 6 months before transferring to a new troop way back in the day, I knew about my cousins' troop, and attended some functions before transferring.

But out of my Oldest son's Webelos Den, 1 Scout quit within 3 monthsof joining; 1 who was a camping addict quit within 4 months of joining; and 1 transferred, and that was only because dad was a scout and knew his old ASM was now SM of the troop the son joined.

In retrospect, I'm wondering if I am allowing loyalty to CO A, sentamentality with helping Troop A get started, and the discussion among Troop B's leaders not wanting to "steal" Scouts affect my concerns in regards to Troop A. Considering that the three Scouts I recruited for them at a Spring Round Up had quit before Fall started, and out of the 5 Webelos who crossed over last December, only 2 are with the troop still (one has commented that he will be transferring after his Tenderfoot BOR), maybe not having any involvement is a good thing if all we will be doing is losing Scouts.