Eagle94-A1

Sidney,

Correct, I am with Pack A and Troop B. There is also a Pack B, which everyone at CO B keeps trying to get me to transfer to but understand why I don't.

Pack and Troop B have a great relationship, CM and WDL are ASMs with the troop. While the MCs may be different, the CC is the same person and is active. There have been several instances of Cubs doing activities with us.

As for trying to help Troop A out, there several reasons for that. One reason is that I helped start that unit and have assisted them through the years. In fact the troop was the reason why we looked at the pack first. So seeing the troop flourish is a personal reason. I hate things I worked hard on to fail.

Another reason is that the troop has more members of the CO in it than the pack, and for whatever reason, the pack is suffering some, i.e. CO used to give some funding to help the pack, we lost access to several rooms that were used by dens, etc. It seems as if once it was known that 2 of the Cubs were going to a different troop, the pack's relationship with the CO has deteriorated some.

Finally, in a close knit district like mine, sometimes "bad blood" develops, for whatever reasons, and it IS (emphasis) detrimental to all involved. And folks in my neck of the woods have long memories (we still have a troop that refuses to got to the local summer camp b/c the then SM's son WILLING (emphasis and I saw the Scout immediately after it was done witht he smile on his face) had his head shaved and SM dad was not happy). We got enough challenges with such a young troop that we don't need any intertroop drama. And that is what the leaders want to avoid.

Forgot to mention, there is already some "bad blood" as the CM/ASM of Pack and Troop B was once a leader with Pack A. When his pastor asked him to start Pack B, 1/2 the Cubs in Pack A did leave as a result. The SM of Troop A was the CM at the time, and accused him of "stealing" scouts. And yes there was drama.

Stosh,

Yep, I had to beg the troop to invite Webelos on a camp out with them when my oldest was a Webelos (I wanted my old den to get to know them). Also I and the Webeloree Chief had to beg them to staff the Webeloree, which is a big recruiting tool as the Webelos gets to see the various troops in the district.

SP,

I was assigned to them temporarily as their UC when the UC assigned to my pack and the troop passed away. Their meetings were on a bad nite for me, so I couldn't visit like I wanted to. The few times I did try to help, I was essentially told I don't what I'm talking about. So the unit leadership and the parents still with the unit (don't ask) don't really want me around.

But I do think I will encourage the CM and the 4th grade WDL to contact the troop to try and get them involved. Hopefully they won't have to beg to be invited to things.

How do you get a troop involved in the Webelos-to-Scout Transition?

OK, some of you may remember the stories about my pack's CO's troop when I could post as Eagle92. Last year there was some interaction with the pack in that they did invite the Webelos to a camp out and a meeting. But this year there has been nothing, absolutely NOTHING (emphasis). We've asked for den chiefs, and the ones we got were more like Cubs than Scouts. They have not attended the last 3 district and council camporees, which have Webelos can attend. And the last one they did attend, I had to beg them to invite Webelos. So den chiefs have not worked out, trying to get invited to things haven't worked out. How can we get them interested in the process?

I know the troop is losing scouts. One of my former Cubs transferred over a few months back, and another one will be transferring shortly. He was encouraged to stay with him until his SM Conference and Tenderfoot BOR, telling them what's happening and why he will be transferring.

Believe it or not, the CC, SM, and an ASM with my son's troop is concerned about that troop because the Scouts are transferring to us. Plus out of the three Webelos who will be Crossing Over next month, 2 have decided to come to our troop, and one wants to visit us and another troop before deciding. So none of the this years Crossover's are going to the CO's troop. And as I mentioned the leadership with my son's troop is concerned because we do not want a reputation for "stealing." We want them to have an active, successful program. But we are not goign to turn away any Scouts who want to join us.

HMM I'm mixed on this. On one hand, you got friends together, but if even with a TG, it is challenging at times to teach them.

My troop growing up tried the NSP twice: once when National was trying out the process with some units prior to 1989, and once when a brand new troop asked to hang with us until they got on their feet. In the first instance, after 6 months we went to mixed aged patrols, and in the second instance within a year, the two troops merged and we went to the mixed aged patrol.

Now my son's troop has 2 patrols: NSP and "expereinced" Scouts. Since has only recently only had enough to split into two patrols, that is what they did. So essentially the Scouts have not had any expereince in a mixed age patrol. Going to get real interesting when all the new Cubs cross over as we will be moving some to the "expereinced" patrol who are still Tenderfoot.

One thing that made my troop growing up successful with mixed aged patrols was that when they visited the troop as Webelos, heck when anyone visited the troop, we assigned a Scout to be their buddy and work with them for that meeting. Ditto when they went on their first campout. Usually when they joined the troop, they wanted to be with their buddy and join his patrol.

Replace the Jambo patch with an award that represents the true pinnacle scouting experience: e.g., a constellation patch with star devices for patrol/crew overnights independent of adults.

Unfortunately BSA took away the ability of patrols to camp independently from adults a few years back.

LeCastor,

Back in our day, it did mean something to get elected. It was harder to get it, and it might take 2, 3, even 4 years to get in because of the formula used for electing youth at the time: You may only vote for 1/2 of those eligible, and they must get 50% of the votes. Usually 1/2 those eligible would be elected. So it meant something when you did finally get in (third time was the charm for me )

Now you can vote for everyone eligible. Heck even the troop trouble maker can get in because peers feel sorry for him if he gets left behind.

Interesting topic. I can see where for some, American Indian Affairs (AIA for short, what it was called when I was very active) takes over and they lose the sense of service. I've seen that happen with one lodge's AIA group, to the point that many do not want to associate with them.

But I also know how folks involved in AIA over the years HAVE (emphasis) provided service not only to Scouting, but also to the Native American Community.

When I was active, both as a youth and adult, I was involved in AIA, and we did lots of Cub Scout ceremonies, as well as demonstrations, dances, etc I still remember performing in front of over 10,000 folks at one event the council was hosting. Yes it's a lot of fun, but it is also a lot of work.

As for helping the Native American community, OA came about during a time when it was illegal for Native Americans to do some things. OA members involved in AIA have been involved in researching, and at times keeping alive. I've read and have been told stories on how folks worked with the Native American communities so much, that they have been adopted into families. I know folks who have brought back lost craft skills, assisted in research for filing for state and federal recognition status, and are members of different Native American societies that provide specific services to the specific Native American community.

AIA isn't for everyone. And yes some folks can go overboard. But it also provides a way to serve.

I was told that the old CS WB course was designed for trainers, CS RT Commissioners, and other folks who were involved with the development of CS Leaders, not neccessarily direct contact with Cubs.

I would need to talk to one of my friends who did that one, as well as the old BS one.

All professional training is done via national. Weather your course is only done at the national training center, or done somewhere in the regions, it is all run through them.

And as Tahawk mentioned, national will select the groups of folks that the local council volunteers will interview and select as SE.

While the transfer form is nice because it does have the leader fromt he old unit showing the advancment that has been done, it is NOT (emphasis) necessary.

As Stosh stated, the BSHB is THE (emphasis) master record that all other records; a unit's records and council's SCOUTNET records are suppose to be based upon.

I know we have a Scout in my troop, who got so ticked off with his old one, that he "burned some bridges." Luckily he was a new Scout with no rank earned, and only 2 MBs from a MB college.

Fred,

Usually SEs will move every three to five years.

Only exceptions I've seen to that is

A) It's a "Sunset position" in that it's where they want to retire for whatever reasons. One retired SE I knew grew up in the council as a youth, and moved around as a pro. His council came up, and he got it. after about 10 or 12 years, he retired and is still in that council.

B) They are screw ups and are kept in a position until retirement or a national level one opens up where they cannot really screw up anything. My former SE boss was so bad, that he couldn't get out of my council for another SE position. National ended up giving him a position where he couldn't screw up any councils.

C) They screw up so bad, that they need to leave. My old DFS boss eventually got promoted to SE. Within 2 years, he totally and completely screwed so bad, he resigned as SE and was demoted to a FD.

#1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( and yes I'm yelling at ya )

#2 If memory serves, since you are in my era of Scouting you know how memory gets with age , Skill Awards were considered "Advancement," were "Restricted Items," and you needed an Advancement Report to get them. I remember what a pain it was to get replacements when I traded my belt with them on them. SM had to get replacements for me, at least the ones he could get his hands on. So they were designed for the youth.

#3 Only adults I ever saw wearing Skill Awards, were those who just became adults, i.e. 18-19 year olds. My troop's policy was youth wore the green belts with the Skill Awards since it was advancement. Adults wore either the green belts, without the SAs, or leather belts. Most wore the leather belts, and one of the first things I did after my ECOH, was go and get a leather belt with an Eagle Buckle.

#4 If you wear a current Eagle buckle, be careful as they break easily. I'm on #3 right now, and before last Monday haven't worn it in years.

Go up the chain, i.e. Commissioner, DE etc to find out. While I would have no problems whatsoever if someone with Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills, or even Webelos Leader Outdoor Training, taking over, some councils may have issues.

I know when I first became a TCDL, I had to go through B.A.L.O.O. even thoughI've had a bunch of outdoor training on the Boy Scout level, as both youth and adult, and was the district training chair doing the Boy Scout leader training. That was the council policy under that SE.

But now,. I think the council would OK with someone with the Boy Scout training doing Cub work.

Caveat: I have not gone through Woodbadge. I went through the old Brownsea 22 course for Scouts back in the day. After hearing about what is done at WB21C form those who have gone through it, here is what I think should be done.

1) BRING IT BACK OUTSIDE! (emphasis) "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" as GBB said. You can have classes outside.

2) Not only bring back basic T-2-1 Skills, but put a major emphasis on having the leaders mastering those skills to bring back to their troops. Have them cook their own meals, plan campfires, do orienteering, etc.

3) By doing #2 above, this will promote the Patrol Method.

Stosh,

I’m with you on letting the Scouts decide what to do. That’s why I am not too upset with the Webelos having to make a choice. Heck I had to make a choice to honor my commitment to oldest son and camporee, or break that commitment and watch youngest do his first Cubmobile and assist with that event. Thankfully the wife is supporting me on this, and she will be taking the younger two to Cubmobile.

Quaz,

Part of the district’s problem is the CS activities chair. The council family camp out and district camporee were planned and put on the council’s calendar last year, so they have been “set in stone†so to speak. And when the family camp out was first planned, it was deliberately set up to avoid conflicts with existing Cub Scout events in the districts. Usually events in this area happen the same weekend year after year, except in March/April time frame due to Easter. So in the fall we know when districts are using the camp, when districts are having CS events, etc.

Problems arose when the activities chair moved things up. Sometimes things cannot be helped but have a conflict. But the activities chair doesn’t care about what is already scheduled. She has scheduled activities whenever she wanted regardless of what is already scheduled: Pinewood Derby on University of Scouting, Webeloree same weekend as OA Conclave (and she wondered why she could never get the OA to help staff the event).

You are 100% correct on shedding responsibilities. As much as I want to work with oldest son and Boy Scouts, I need to spend the time with the youngest. Being a troop MC is fine with me.

The district responsibilities are the sticking point. At the moment there are only 2 CS folks on the district committee, the CS Activities chair and I. And she doesn’t attend meetings, so I am the one representing the Cub leaders. The CS RT commissioner job I would like to give up if I could find the right replacment. Thankfully that job has gotten easier since I’ve given up day camp. But doing both was a P.I.T.A.

Dedked,

You are 100% correct, we do rely on the district and council for special activities. My district is a small one, essentially just one county, and the 2 largest packs have approx 60 Cubs in each. The rest vary from 5 to 25. From way before I got in the district as a DE in 1998, the packs pooled their resources since the council really didn't do much for Cubs. For whatever reason, the person that has taken over the CS activities doesn't really coordinate anything with the packs anymore.

UPDATE: My pack had Cubmobile practice last night and several leaders were complaining about the date. Since we told them in September that the second date was going to be a conflict and we really needed the event to be in November, several of our leaders already have other, family obligations this weekend. So we are trying to find someone to take charge of the event and transport the cars.

When I picked up my oldest son form Boy Scouts, several of that pack's leaders were also complaining about the date and conflicts. Comment was made that maybe my pack and the other pack organize our own Cubmobile. And while the location proposed does not have as steep an incline, it is longer.

I've been involved with Cub Scouts going on 6 years now. I was a TCDL and DL for oldest son , TCDL and Wolf DL for middle son, and back with Tigers with the youngest. So this is my 3rd time starting all over again. So I am wondering if my current lack of interest in Cub Scouts is burn out or frustration with the Cub Scout district schedule.

Here's a little background on district Cub Scout schedule situation. Round Ups in my neck of the woods are not like anything I’ve experienced in other councils, nor how it is presented in training. Because of the school busing situation, all packs recruit from multiple schools, with two, sometimes three, packs recruiting at the same school. Except for the 3 packs way out in the county that only recruit at 1 school, a pack may spend 5 to 8 weeks doing Round Ups. So new Cubs comes in waves, getting a new Tiger Leader may take time, and you really cannot begin standard program meetings as a result. And for me the first "program" meeting was more for the parents: introducing them to camping and getting htem prepared for a council family camp out in two weeks.

For over 12 years, and probably a heck of a lot longer than that, the district Cub Mobile was the first Sunday in November. Everyone knew A) that specific Sunday in Novemeber was Cubmobile and B) every pack's Round Ups were completed new Cubs had a chance to practice riding in the Cubmobile before race day. Cubmobile was usually the first major Cub Scout event for most new Cubs.

Six years ago, the council decided to start having a fall camping event for Cub Scouts and their families. “Scouting is outing†and everyone enjoyed it. It then became the first major event of the year for most Cubs. However the Cubmobile chair doesn’t believe that Cubs should camp, her pack didn’t promote the family camp out, and no one from her pack goes. For them, Cubmobile is the first major event.

Four years ago the dates of the Cubmobile changed. The reason given was that the sponsoring organization asked if they could hold it on a different day or weekend due to a new countywide event they now participate in. The event chair moved the date up to before the Cub Scout Family Camp Out. And she did not tell anyone about the date change until 6 weeks prior to the event. Several packs already had plans for that day. Long story short, it was the smallest Cubmobile event ever, lasting about an hour. As you can imagine, lots of complaints about the late notice on the changes.

Three years ago, the event chair got the event date out in time. However she moved the date up. That was the year that the Cub Scout Family Camp Out was moved up as well. So we had many new Cubs and parents who still didn’t know their unit numbers, and leaders still didn’t know all of their Cubs. It was more successful than the previous year, but very chaotic.

Last year, Cubmobile got moved up again before the family camp out, this time while Round Ups were still going on. So we had Cubs recruited the week of Cubmobile, and had not even been to a meeting yet, let alone practice driving a Cubmobile. One of the long standing rules is that Cubs are supposed to practice prior to race day. Exception was made due to Round Ups and time set aside for them to practice while registration was going on. It was a disaster. Not only did we have the chaos of folks not knowing what units they were in, but also folks who have never even practiced controlling a Cubmobile before which resulted in "fender benders." At one point only one pack's Cubmobile was still operable. All the others were being repaired, except one which was demolished.

As you can imagine, a lot of leaders were not happy and wanted events pushed back into November to give folks more time to prepare.

This year, when it was announced that the date was going to be the first weekend in October, I expressed concerns about Round Ups still going on and many new Cubs would not be able to participate. I also mentioned the chaos of previous years and the number of “fender benders†that occurred last year as a result of having the Cubmobile too early. Finally I stated that the #1 comment at the CS Roundtable after last year's Cubmobile was that the event needs to be in November for a variety of reasons.

Good news is that the date got changed to one that will allow folks time to practice driving their Cubmobiles. Bad news is that the date selected conflicts with a district Boy Scout event; so now the event has lost some manpower in the form of Boy Scouts and Scouters being at camporee instead of helping out with Cubmobile. And yes, I am one of the leaders committed to working at camporee, and will not be able to watch my youngest do his first Cubmobile, nor help his fellow Tigers out. And that commitment was made even before the original date of Cubmobile was announced. Also because Webelos are invited to camporee, some have decided to skip out on it in favor of Cubmobile, and others are coming late to camporee, missing out on some fun there.

When the new date was announced at Round table, it was stated that there was a conflict and to see if the date could be changed to Novemeber like the leaders asked when the original date was announced. It took a month to find out from the event chair that, no, the date cannot be changed.

Is it me being too long in a Cub Scout leader situation, or is it me being frustrated with the situation.

Stosh,

I hear ya, and agree with mostly. They need to come up with it, and they need, for lack of a better term, ownership. When the Leadership Corps found out there was a harder cross country trail available, they took ownership of it. I just happened to "go along for the hike" since I did the standard trail a year before with my first troop, and the LC was gracious enough to let me tag along.

As to 2-3 special events a year, as you well know every troop is different, and for some that might not be enough. It worked well for my troop because we did a lot of servant leadership, peer mentoring, instruction, whatever you want to call it. Basically the older scouts were teaching and working with the younger Scouts, and we tried to "get away" when we could. So it worked well with my situation. Sometimes we came up with stuff on our own, sometimes the adults would ask, "you know this is available to do" and let us do the rest.

So sometimes I do think it is good for adults to anounce opportunies that are available to the older Scouts. Best example was the Canadian trek I took. ASM announced it a meeting, and gave those interested information about the first contingent meeting. With the exception of that ASM, who was the contingent leader, troop really had nothing to do with that trip. But they provided us the info to pursue that trip. My troop did the same for other HA programs; provide us the information from council on jambo, provided info troops that are going to Philmont that have open spaces,etc.

Now one thing that really promoted different activities is "Word of Mouth." One of the "high adventure" programs offered by my old camp was done by member of my troop, and when they came back, they pumped us up with their exploits. I did the program as soon as I could. Good friend, one who went to Philmont with another troop, came back and pumped folks up. He not only got others to go, but also served on staff one year.

I am really hoping the above situation, word of mouth, pumps HA interest in my son's troop. One of the ASMs has been to Philmont several times, and his stories have sparked the older guys imaginations. We are a reletively young troop, and he suggested to the older Scouts (12-14 year olds) that they may want to consider putting in for the upcoming lottery for 2016. He also suggested that if we don't win the lottery, we come up with a "Plan B" to go to another HA base. But I'm hoping that trip will motivate and pump up the troop.

To continue the Star Wars paraphrasing, Give in to the patrol method.

On a positive note, I know using the patrol method keeps the older ones involved. BUT you also have to give them some extra challenges that are just for them on occasion. HA trips, involvement with the OA, Jambo, etc.

On a different note. I hate to sound negative, but what Stosh has posted is 110% true.I seen this several times, while a JLTC staffer and under NYLT. One troop sent 3 Scouts to NYLT and when they came back they were pumped and ready to take over the troop from the adults. Unfortunately the SM and other leaders refused to let them implement the changes they wanted and would make the troop patrol method oriented again. As of right now 1 NYLT scout switched troops to one that is a PM troop, 1 is waiting to finish his Eagle before quitting (yes, both he and his mom told me that). However the skills he learned at NYLT ARE (emphasis) being utilized in another youth program he is involved in (my son is in it with him). And the last one I don't know for sure what is going on. I believe, stressing BELIEVE, he made Eagle and is waiting for the paperwork to come back for his COH before he too quits.

" Lions - Kindergarten

Tigers - 1st Grade

Wolves - 2nd Grade

Bears - 3rd Grade

Webelos/AOL - 4th Grade (one year)

Boy Scouts - 5th-8th Grades

Venturing* - 9th-College "

I hope this isn't so. I admit I don't know how the new changes to Cub Scouts will work out, but it is already too long IMHO. Maybe, just maybe, with more action it won't be so bad.

As for folks getting into a troop starting in 5th grade, mixed emotions on this one. I know at the begining of 5th grade, my son and his den were pumped and chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts. Since then 2 have completely dropped out of the program, 1 attends sporadically, and my son at times seems dazed, confused, and overwhelmed. I blame part of that on him being in a New Scout Patrol and being PL. While he is managing, it was not really ready for the job IMHO. But that may be me as a biased observer. 2 others said he was ready.

I am a firm believer of mixed age patrols with a "senior Scout" patrol, in my day it was the Leadership Corps but called a venture patrol today, that provides the troop level leadership (SPL is de facto member, but ASPL runs it and Instructors, QM, Librarian, etc are members of the patrol). The troops I've been in that had the older scout patrol allowed them to do their own activities periodically, and sometimes within planned troop activities that they were running. I vividly remember the LC striking out with one of the ASMs (pre YPT) to do a tougher, more challenging trail at Vicksburg Military Park, while the rest of the troop did the 14 mile road hike. Even when the VMP Trek was closed off due to tornado damage, the LC still did their own thing. Instead of just doing the 14 Mile road trip with the troop, we started off before the troop at a faster pace to do not only the 14 miler, but also the 7 miler that was there as well.

So a troop with a good program CAN (emphasis) keep the older Scouts.

And that is my concern. I feel that if we move everyone to Venturing in 9th grade automatically, we lose a lot of experienced Scouts that could benefit the younger Scouts.

On a different note, and Stosh please correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the BSA try something like this in the 1950s?

Tam,

Yeah, I'd probably not put it on my sash either as I plan on handing down my sash to the next Vigil I sponsor. kinda of a tradition from my home lodge.

But now 3 patches are authorized for the OA sash: 50th Anniversary, 60th Anniversary, and now 100th Anniversary patches.

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes that was me screaming at the top of my lungs.

If you are in an area that doesn't snow much, I got a great fundraiser for you: Snow Shoveling Insurance. If it snows your Scouts will dig out the snow. Heard about a unit in Louisiana, and they only had to go out and shovel snow once, when the Saints won the Super Bowel.

KDD,

I think JP is referring to the special white arrow on red sash that all Arrowmen who attend next year's NOAC will get. Supposedly you will only be able to wear it at NOAC, but we know how that goes.

'Skip,

Long story short, in 1972 BSA made neckers an option with Boy Scout troops under themess that was the "Improved Scouting Program." Troops not only could decide which necker to wear, but also how to wear a necker, and if they wanted to wear one at all.

I am going to assume (and you know what can happen when you do that ), that 1972 was also when the BSA went from properly sized neckers, to all neckers being CS sized. I know the CS sized neckers looked funny on those that did wear them still, and glad my troop used a custom made one. SO that may be one reason why many troop don't wear them over hear. Sad in my opinion.

Me personally, I say GO FOR IT! But it may cause issues with some UP's and at uniform inspections.

Long story short, My son's troop has two neckers, a plain green one for when a boy joins the troop, and troop's current, stressing CURRENT (more later), green and red necker once they earn Scout rank. So my son's patrol, since it is the NSP, has boys wearing both the plain green necker, and green and red necker.

Like I said, currently they use the green and red necker from national. BUT national is going out of the Boy Scout neckerchief business I am told. So now they are looking at going the custom route.

I've suggested they go the triangle bandage route for a necker. Use the plain bandage for new folks, and then when they earn Scout, they silk screen a troop logo on it. Waiting for the next PLC to mention that to the youth.

As someone else noted, when you recharter youth protection must be current for the full period covered by the new charter, or you will have to retake YPT.

I'll give an example. Pack's charter expires January 31, 2015. My YPT expires December 15, 2015. In order for me to recharter from February 1 2015 to January 31, 2016, I MUST (emphasis) take YPT before the pack turns in their charter, otherwise SCOUTNET will not allow me to recharter.

I can see national making it a yearly certification. Hey they already tried to make everyone who is fully trained to redo training every time it changes its name. Plus if memory serves, YPT was a "one and done" course when I first became an ASM.