Eagle94-A1

 

I don't know if I would use the word flexible in as much as I would use the word adaptable.

Yes, adaptable is a better word. But "Semper Gumby" sounds so much better.

I don't think that the concept of BSA program is a one-size-fits-all is correct. Surely the dynamics and needs of a 1 patrol troop is not the same as a 6 patrol troop, nor is a brand new troop the same as one that has flourished for 99 years. This also needs to be tempered with the skills and abilities of the adult and youth leadership at hand and this can change as often as once or twice a year.

Agree with you. I like to call being a SM is an art, not a science. There is a multitude of factors involved in scouting: from resources, abilities of leaders, abilitiies of scouts, CO support, loctaion, ad nauseum. Every troop is different.

 

To think everyone is going to adhere to BSA publications like they are holy scriptures is kind of foolish.

Unfortunately I've met folks who think that what is expressed in the current BSA literature IS the only way of doing it, even if it will be detrimental to the program in some situations. And if you tell them otherwise, it's blasphemy. There are some folks who don't realize that there are a variety of ways, all legit, to deliver the program.

Take the entire New Scout Patrol, Expereinced Patrol, Venture Patrol set up of today. I've met folks who have told me you cannot have Mixed-Aged Patrols because it is not in BSA literature. Yet for the first 62 years of the BSA,, that is how it was done. Then for the next 17 years, you had Mixed-Aged Patrols and the Leadership Corps. it wasn't until 1989 that NSPs and the current format came out, and many troops still ran the old way, because for them NSP didn't work as well as Mixed-Aged patrols.

Here's my $.02 worth.

1) There is no need for an SPL unless you have 2 or more patrols. SPL is just that: the SENIOR patrol leader. If you only have 1 patrol, then you only have 1 PL.

2) I do belive the unofficial motto of the BSA is "SEMPER GUMBY" OR "ALWAYS FLEXIBLE." One of the most important things I learned in Scouting is that sometimes the best made plans fall apart, and you sometimes have to think "on your feet" or "outside the box" to solve problems. Best example I can give is finding out our of our camping gear was destroyed the night before we were taking Webelos on a campout. We really thought on our feet that night to prevent cancelling that camp out!

3) In regards to patrols working together, if the situation calls for it, then I am for it. Best example I can give on this is my son's troop at the moment. They have 1 "expereinced" patrol, and now 2 NSPs. PLC has the "experienced" patrol members working with the NSPs members during the instruction period.

4) Sometimes the higher up the food chain you get, the you remember about being at the bottom. Best example is some of the pros I've met and worked with. They forget that every "number" is a youth that we are making an impact on.

5) Also in regards top national, sometimes they talk to the wrong "experts." Instead of going to folks in the field and getting their thoughts and opinions, the consult outside experts who don't have a clue as to what Scouting really is. I saw a lot of that when I worked for supply: folks coming up with crazy things to sell that have little to no practical purpose for being sold.

BUT in regards to 5 national is slowly getting better, and I give them credit for that. When the info came out that ALL Cubs needed to switch to the new requirement as of June 1 2015, folks at national did listen to us in the field and make the option for those current Webelos to continue using the current AOL requirements.

6) In regards to "eating our own," I know in my own case I am tired and frustrated at some of the things I am hearing and seeing from new leaders, especially ones that I helped train. Especially right now. The leader that I planned ITOLS around and told me "it's too cold to camp" is now posting about how it's perfect camping weather right now.

Qwazse,

THANKFULLY that's the case with our two camps. One reverts back to the family ( who will turn the property into "McMansions" like the ones that are currently being built around the camp). The other camp goes to a local university.

But I do know of one instance where the SE talked a trust into donating ownershipof the camp to the council. Within 3-6 months of getting the deed, he had the camp sold off. Sad thing is, the camp that all the money was sunk into ended up getting severely damaged by a hurricane. That camp's damage was so bad, an oil company was able to make the case that the land was no longer of value, and got emminent domain used to install a pipeline smack through the camp. SO that camp is completely useless now. So the scouts lost 2 camps within a year or two.

RS,

In 2012, national decided tho create the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) to standardize all scout camp across the national. Here are some links about the NCAP

Main link to overall program

http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/CampAccreditation.aspx

Camp Facilities Evaluation Tool

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/430-085.pdf

While I do beleive that camps need to be maintained, not every scout camp needs to meet those standards IMHO. My council has some primitive camps that have minimal structures on it. They do not need welcoming centers, dining halls, etc.

Hedge,

there are a lot of different variations on wilderness survival that I've encountered. Some variations have folks only using survival kits. some make some accommodations, specifically sleeping bags. When we did the trips with Webelos, we took it relatively easy on them, and the adults that wanted to got to stay in tents .

One of the ones I liked was a "crash site" done at a summer camp and everything needed was provided by the camp staff, if they could find it After waiting about 30 minutes for contraband to appear on the amnesty blanket, the scouts were taken to the site where they "crashed." Some stuff was strewn all over the place for easy collecting. Some stuff was "hidden" a ways. Those poor guys sufffered all kinds of calamities that nite: earthquakes, snake bites, etc etc. rteally put them through their paces.

One thing NOT to do is make actual,visible air to ground signals. First time the MBC at summer camp did the experience above, he made the scouts make visible Air to ground signals. State troopers in a chopper saw it and landed to find out what was wrong.

Don't burn out, and keep focus on who is more important, your son and his den. I'm in a similar boat; TCDL for the youngest, troop committee with oldest, CSRT commish, and dist. committee.

Wilderness Survival Weekend Building shelters, utensiless cooking and having FUN!

My troop growing up turned this into an annual event with Webelos coming to camp with us. Long story short, our gear got destroyed and we found out the nite before the Webelos Overnighter. Adapt, Improvise. Overcome.

WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I to am at a loss ... SQUIRREL!

If they do things the same way as in the past, you'll be getting a letter in the near future about more specifics. Every camp school is different. First one I went to for being C.O.P.E. Director was a week long, at a scout camp, and we were in tents, eating in a dining hall, etc. Classes were either under a shelter or on the C.O.P.E. course.

Second one I went to was for CSDC administration, was 4 days, and at a conference center. We stayed in cabins/dorms, selpt in bunk beds, ate in the conference center's dining room, and spent a good bit of time indoors in conference rooms.

The majority of new scout leaders joining today don't have a youth scouting experience or much outdoors camping experience and you guys expect them to trust your fanatical opinions' date=' why? [/quote']

 

I hate to say it but even some of the adult leaders WITH ( emphasis) youth Scouting experience have little to no actual, "traditional" Scouting experiences. That is because the were involved in the 1972-1979 Improved Scouting Program (ISP) that de-emphasized traditional Scout skills and expereinces like the outdoors. They model the troops they work with on the model of their youth, and the troop's outdoor program suffers.

 

As for us "old fogeys" being radical and extreme, I think part of it has to due with the charley foxtrot that was the ISP of the 1970s. Some of us survived that period, others like me saw and are seeing the affects of it to this day. Let's face it, BSA would have gone the way of Campfire USA ( I haven't seen or heard any lately about them except on this site) if "Green Bar Bill" had not come out of retirement, wrote a new BSHB, and wrote new training programs that brought back the "OUTING in ScOUTING." IMHO Bill is the one who saved the BSA, and he is no longer with us.

 

Us old fogeys see a gradual return to the ISP, after all the new DEs of the time are now the National pros today. We know that the ISP almost killed Scouting, and Bill is no longer there to save us.

 

Do we need to adapt? Yes we do need to change and adapt to the times and technology (GPS, ultralightweight gear, LNT etc). But we got to remember 1) The Patrol Method is the second foundation of the movement (behind the ideals). If we don't "Train 'em. Trust 'em, LET THEM LEAD!" we taking one of the legs of Scouting out from under the program.

 

2) "SCOUTING IS OUTING!" More and more research showing that unstructured, outdoor time is needed by all these days of constant technology, the Outdoors is needed more than ever.

 

 

Fred,

If an existing Webelos doesn't get his Webelos Badge by May 31st, they have to use the new AOL requirements, doing the 7 adventures, to earn their AOL.

And from one of the myriad of forms I've seen, AOL adventures are in the Webelos book.

While there were several interesting things that occured last nite, one is relevent to this topic. As most of you may know, the troop I'm with is young, and is slowly moving to patrol method. One of our troop guides "recquisitioned" his dad's copy of the Scouting and read the article. Asked me if I read it and I did say yes, but he noted my wariness of the article. He asked me, "You don't think the article is good?" And I told him, "I don't think the article goes far enough."

T-11 days to ITLS-T!

My troop never used blue cards, so we used photocopies of the Boy Scout Requirements Book and had them initial each requirement , or sign off saying completed.

The patrol method is suppose to be "organized chaos" because it give the scouts a chance to fail and learn in a safe environment. Only time I encountered "well oiled machines" were those troops that are either A) 100% adult led or B) have been around so long and have older scouts who pass on their knowledge to the younger Scouts. Some of the problems I've seen with 100% adult led were 1) folks Eagle and leave and 2) once the leader steps down, the troop folds.

In regards to young troops, yep you may need to model what the expectations are, and you definitely need to work with the SPL. I know when my 11 year old son was elected SPL and was at his first PLC as SPL, the SM did take over the meeting when my son failed to do his job of running it. BUT he also said, "[sPL], I just showed you how a PLC is suppose to be run. I expect you to run the next one." Three weeks later my 11 year old ran the entire PLC meeting on his own with only a few minor interruptions from the adults.

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

While there may be a lot of "old fogeys' who could not keep up with the "yutes," I know quite a few who can and do. One of the most feared, as well as most loved, staffers was this crusty old retired Marine who did the First Year Camper program growing up. While I did not have him my first year at camp, I did encounter him for my religious award BOR. Firm but fair. Could chew you out and make you feel 2 inches tall without raising his voice. But when you passed muster with him, made you feel 10 feet tall and proud.

He kept us with us "youngins" on staff. In fact I think working staff kept him young. And he made inpact in my council. When he died, we had folks flying in from all over to pay their last respects.

Pack -- we've eliminated them in our troop. I take the camp schedule and white-out Communications' date=' the citizenships, Personal Fitness, etc. before we distribute to the Scouts. The only blow-back I get is from parents. The Scouts generally appreciate it. I mean really, who wants to take Communications at summer camp.[/quote']

 

Did something similar with my son. Had 3 categories of classes: YES, Look Into It, and HECK NO! With the exception of those that had age requirements by the camp, all the HECK NO classes were paperwork ones.

 

Gotta remember that for this year with the troop.

 

One other question as an aside. Do you recommend to you scouts you only take X number of MBs at camp so that they have time to have fun and do other things like free shooting, swimming, etc?

 

Qwazse,

Actually the photo that photo is incorrect. The BA22 syllabus shows the "Brownsea" Strip going between the unit numbers and the CSP. Here's one link to that shoes the proper placement. And if I can find the syllabus, I post that.

http://www.hcst.net/~edelmann/brownsea22.html

Qwazse,

I do not like the fact that adults get their 3rd and 4th bead for staffing NYLT. My sentiments is that the adult NYLT staffers should get the same recognition as the youth NYLT staffers.

You know, the 3rd ed. SMHB written by Green Bar Bill covers the situation where you have a new troop, or are instilling the patrol method in en established troop. Don't have it in my possession, but if memory serves, the SM and ASMs actually run things for the scouts, modelling how things are suppose to be done, and then over a 6 month period, the scouts take more and more resposnibility, while the adults start stepping back more and more. By the end of 6 months, Scouts are completely running things.

SM models the job of SPL or PL depending upon size of the troop, and the ASMs model PLs or APLs, again depending upon the size of the troop. I want to say the adults do everything for a month or so, then slowly start stepping back.

I will say this, it's hard letting go, even if you know better. Trust me on that one

I like. Still want to know what the youth staff get in lieu of WB beads as a recognition. Hey, if the adult staffers can get beads, why not youth staff?

Depends upon the event.

When I did training, we had to stay out of the red. They didn't want us to make a "surplus," but if it happened, great. IF we did go in the red, district was responsible for making up the difference somehow, i.e. having a surplus at another event. We had very small surpluses (under $25)

Now when I did CSDC, the council wanted us to budget a surplus of at least 10% over the actual costs. Part of that was to help out with any unexpected costs. But the surplus from one day camp would help cover those day camps actually lost money.

First year as CSDC PD, I found out that my day camp had run into the red for a number of years. I got the deficit down to $15 the first year, and we would have had a surplus if the CD would have listened to me and not buy supplies that I had stated I would get and did get. The second year, we did have a surplus, but that was because I got put in charge of the financial matters of the day camp and not the CD by the DE. Have had surpluses every year since.

While it's been a while since I worked summer camp staff and I am not as up to date with current camp standards, I can see a few issues with using leaders at camp to teach MBs.

1) Is consistency. If each week of new leaders brings a new batch of MBs, how can planning be done in advance for the Scouts to plan their schedules?

2) Is the bureaucracy. Even if the leaders volunteer to teach for the week, national has decided that they have to follow ALL (emphasis) of the same policies and procedures that paid staff have to go through: x number of hours of training, camp YPT, sexual harassment training, first aid and CPR/AED training ad nauseum. I've dealt with this as a CSDC program director and it drives folks nuts.

In my opinion, the "Safety" issue is more legal liability and bureaucracy than actual safety concerns for the Scouts.

Now to attract college students, I agree better pay and working with colleges to get them college credit will work. And while working with the colleges may be a pain at times, I've seen it work out.

An idea I picked up on from another group was scholarships in lieu of pay. I met someone who worked at another organizations summer camp program. None of the staff were paid, all volunteers, their only compensation was room and board. However the organization did have a scholarship program, and every staffer was put into that program.While not every scholarship recipient was a camp staffer, every camp staffer was a scholarship recipient.

Yes, I do see a role for UCs. But what if, despite the attempts of the UC to work with leaders to solve the problem, the UC is ignored?

The Blue Cards thread, in which an SM is doing his own thing, and the Youngest Eagle thread, got me thinking. If a unit is doing their own thing, and Scouts are getting signed off on advancement, how can a troop's advancement problem be identified and corrected before a Scout sits in front oh his EBOR?

My council uses the district/council EBOR option. So there is a standing EBOR committee. But the first time they see the scouts is when they go get approval for their Eagle Projects. So the first time they may realize a troop is having advancement challenges, is when they are getting ready for Eagle, which as some have pointed out, problems should have been resolved earlier, which is on the unit level.

Worst example of this was an "Eagle" who had major advancement issues and the EBOR denied it. Parents appealed and when the info was sent to national, including detailed notes done by the EBOR on their concerns, national overruled the EBOR. I was told that national stated they should not penalize the Scout for adult leadership problems of his troop. The entire district advancement committee resigned in protest.

So how can a district advancement committee ID a problem before it gets to the Eagle stage?

Ok, I need to brag. I was told that last nite was the best meeting ever, better than the canoeing meetings we did in May. Reason I am told was because the Scouts did most of the teaching last nite. We were going over first aid, specifically CPR/AED. I suggested, and the PLC liked, that we add the use of Epi-pens to the instruction since we have one, now 2 scouts, that need to carry them at all times. Yes it's not required, but the Scout I knew about has had to use his epi-pen 2 times at Cub Scout meetings, so I want folks to know how to use it.

Anyway, the "Epi-pen King" taught how to use it, and made sure everybody used the epi-pen trainer properly. When I asked, would you trust your life with these guys using your epi-pen on you, he said yes.

Now I admit, I taught how to do CPR and use the AED. My work would kill me if I returned with a messed up AED trainer, that's why. BUT, I got two of the older Scouts to demonstrate the skills. Then I got 2 additional scouts who knew how to do CPR to man a total of 4 stations, 2 doing compression only CPR, and 2 doing standard 30:2 CPR, while I checked off AED skills. When I asked if they would trust them to do CPR on their moms, most said yes, and 1 said needs more practice. SO they practiced some more.

Was it organized chaos, yes it was. But was it mostly run by them, yes it was.

But what made me really proud was the SPL working with the second NSP we have. Long story short, I had to talk to the scout about why he was being transferred from his patrol to the 2nd NSP: we want him to be their TG. This was when the patrols had to come up with menus for our lock in in 3 weeks. He really did an outstanding job working with them and helping them learn the process.

I had to laugh watching him because I should have known that he could do the job.