Eagle94-A1

While there were several interesting things that occured last nite, one is relevent to this topic. As most of you may know, the troop I'm with is young, and is slowly moving to patrol method. One of our troop guides "recquisitioned" his dad's copy of the Scouting and read the article. Asked me if I read it and I did say yes, but he noted my wariness of the article. He asked me, "You don't think the article is good?" And I told him, "I don't think the article goes far enough."

T-11 days to ITLS-T!

My troop never used blue cards, so we used photocopies of the Boy Scout Requirements Book and had them initial each requirement , or sign off saying completed.

The patrol method is suppose to be "organized chaos" because it give the scouts a chance to fail and learn in a safe environment. Only time I encountered "well oiled machines" were those troops that are either A) 100% adult led or B) have been around so long and have older scouts who pass on their knowledge to the younger Scouts. Some of the problems I've seen with 100% adult led were 1) folks Eagle and leave and 2) once the leader steps down, the troop folds.

In regards to young troops, yep you may need to model what the expectations are, and you definitely need to work with the SPL. I know when my 11 year old son was elected SPL and was at his first PLC as SPL, the SM did take over the meeting when my son failed to do his job of running it. BUT he also said, "[sPL], I just showed you how a PLC is suppose to be run. I expect you to run the next one." Three weeks later my 11 year old ran the entire PLC meeting on his own with only a few minor interruptions from the adults.

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

While there may be a lot of "old fogeys' who could not keep up with the "yutes," I know quite a few who can and do. One of the most feared, as well as most loved, staffers was this crusty old retired Marine who did the First Year Camper program growing up. While I did not have him my first year at camp, I did encounter him for my religious award BOR. Firm but fair. Could chew you out and make you feel 2 inches tall without raising his voice. But when you passed muster with him, made you feel 10 feet tall and proud.

He kept us with us "youngins" on staff. In fact I think working staff kept him young. And he made inpact in my council. When he died, we had folks flying in from all over to pay their last respects.

Pack -- we've eliminated them in our troop. I take the camp schedule and white-out Communications' date=' the citizenships, Personal Fitness, etc. before we distribute to the Scouts. The only blow-back I get is from parents. The Scouts generally appreciate it. I mean really, who wants to take Communications at summer camp.[/quote']

 

Did something similar with my son. Had 3 categories of classes: YES, Look Into It, and HECK NO! With the exception of those that had age requirements by the camp, all the HECK NO classes were paperwork ones.

 

Gotta remember that for this year with the troop.

 

One other question as an aside. Do you recommend to you scouts you only take X number of MBs at camp so that they have time to have fun and do other things like free shooting, swimming, etc?

 

Qwazse,

Actually the photo that photo is incorrect. The BA22 syllabus shows the "Brownsea" Strip going between the unit numbers and the CSP. Here's one link to that shoes the proper placement. And if I can find the syllabus, I post that.

http://www.hcst.net/~edelmann/brownsea22.html

Qwazse,

I do not like the fact that adults get their 3rd and 4th bead for staffing NYLT. My sentiments is that the adult NYLT staffers should get the same recognition as the youth NYLT staffers.

You know, the 3rd ed. SMHB written by Green Bar Bill covers the situation where you have a new troop, or are instilling the patrol method in en established troop. Don't have it in my possession, but if memory serves, the SM and ASMs actually run things for the scouts, modelling how things are suppose to be done, and then over a 6 month period, the scouts take more and more resposnibility, while the adults start stepping back more and more. By the end of 6 months, Scouts are completely running things.

SM models the job of SPL or PL depending upon size of the troop, and the ASMs model PLs or APLs, again depending upon the size of the troop. I want to say the adults do everything for a month or so, then slowly start stepping back.

I will say this, it's hard letting go, even if you know better. Trust me on that one

I like. Still want to know what the youth staff get in lieu of WB beads as a recognition. Hey, if the adult staffers can get beads, why not youth staff?

Depends upon the event.

When I did training, we had to stay out of the red. They didn't want us to make a "surplus," but if it happened, great. IF we did go in the red, district was responsible for making up the difference somehow, i.e. having a surplus at another event. We had very small surpluses (under $25)

Now when I did CSDC, the council wanted us to budget a surplus of at least 10% over the actual costs. Part of that was to help out with any unexpected costs. But the surplus from one day camp would help cover those day camps actually lost money.

First year as CSDC PD, I found out that my day camp had run into the red for a number of years. I got the deficit down to $15 the first year, and we would have had a surplus if the CD would have listened to me and not buy supplies that I had stated I would get and did get. The second year, we did have a surplus, but that was because I got put in charge of the financial matters of the day camp and not the CD by the DE. Have had surpluses every year since.

While it's been a while since I worked summer camp staff and I am not as up to date with current camp standards, I can see a few issues with using leaders at camp to teach MBs.

1) Is consistency. If each week of new leaders brings a new batch of MBs, how can planning be done in advance for the Scouts to plan their schedules?

2) Is the bureaucracy. Even if the leaders volunteer to teach for the week, national has decided that they have to follow ALL (emphasis) of the same policies and procedures that paid staff have to go through: x number of hours of training, camp YPT, sexual harassment training, first aid and CPR/AED training ad nauseum. I've dealt with this as a CSDC program director and it drives folks nuts.

In my opinion, the "Safety" issue is more legal liability and bureaucracy than actual safety concerns for the Scouts.

Now to attract college students, I agree better pay and working with colleges to get them college credit will work. And while working with the colleges may be a pain at times, I've seen it work out.

An idea I picked up on from another group was scholarships in lieu of pay. I met someone who worked at another organizations summer camp program. None of the staff were paid, all volunteers, their only compensation was room and board. However the organization did have a scholarship program, and every staffer was put into that program.While not every scholarship recipient was a camp staffer, every camp staffer was a scholarship recipient.

Yes, I do see a role for UCs. But what if, despite the attempts of the UC to work with leaders to solve the problem, the UC is ignored?

The Blue Cards thread, in which an SM is doing his own thing, and the Youngest Eagle thread, got me thinking. If a unit is doing their own thing, and Scouts are getting signed off on advancement, how can a troop's advancement problem be identified and corrected before a Scout sits in front oh his EBOR?

My council uses the district/council EBOR option. So there is a standing EBOR committee. But the first time they see the scouts is when they go get approval for their Eagle Projects. So the first time they may realize a troop is having advancement challenges, is when they are getting ready for Eagle, which as some have pointed out, problems should have been resolved earlier, which is on the unit level.

Worst example of this was an "Eagle" who had major advancement issues and the EBOR denied it. Parents appealed and when the info was sent to national, including detailed notes done by the EBOR on their concerns, national overruled the EBOR. I was told that national stated they should not penalize the Scout for adult leadership problems of his troop. The entire district advancement committee resigned in protest.

So how can a district advancement committee ID a problem before it gets to the Eagle stage?

Ok, I need to brag. I was told that last nite was the best meeting ever, better than the canoeing meetings we did in May. Reason I am told was because the Scouts did most of the teaching last nite. We were going over first aid, specifically CPR/AED. I suggested, and the PLC liked, that we add the use of Epi-pens to the instruction since we have one, now 2 scouts, that need to carry them at all times. Yes it's not required, but the Scout I knew about has had to use his epi-pen 2 times at Cub Scout meetings, so I want folks to know how to use it.

Anyway, the "Epi-pen King" taught how to use it, and made sure everybody used the epi-pen trainer properly. When I asked, would you trust your life with these guys using your epi-pen on you, he said yes.

Now I admit, I taught how to do CPR and use the AED. My work would kill me if I returned with a messed up AED trainer, that's why. BUT, I got two of the older Scouts to demonstrate the skills. Then I got 2 additional scouts who knew how to do CPR to man a total of 4 stations, 2 doing compression only CPR, and 2 doing standard 30:2 CPR, while I checked off AED skills. When I asked if they would trust them to do CPR on their moms, most said yes, and 1 said needs more practice. SO they practiced some more.

Was it organized chaos, yes it was. But was it mostly run by them, yes it was.

But what made me really proud was the SPL working with the second NSP we have. Long story short, I had to talk to the scout about why he was being transferred from his patrol to the 2nd NSP: we want him to be their TG. This was when the patrols had to come up with menus for our lock in in 3 weeks. He really did an outstanding job working with them and helping them learn the process.

I had to laugh watching him because I should have known that he could do the job.

Again I am not trying to pick on the LDS units, and I know of non-LDS leaders , some of whom ARE trained (heck I trained one of them), who don't care how the program is suppose to be run, but do what THEY want to do.

The real challenge is turnover. You need stable adult leadership in order to have a good program.

The current scoutmaster was cubmaster while I was a den leader. He is not interested in being trained. He is trying to have a fun program for the boys and get them earning badges' date=' but whithout knowing how the program is supposed to work, it goes differently. [/quote']

 

And that is the problem. He has no idea, nor does he care, about how the Boy Scout program works. So he is essentially running a Cub Scout program for Boy Scout aged youth.

 

Youth Protection Training is required prior to being registered. But to be "Trained" he needs Scoutmaster Specific Leader Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skill. SSPLT tells you about how the program is suppose to work, and IOLS makes sure you can keep up with your Scouts when they camp.

 

 

 

 

 

With no offense intended to LDS units, one of the challenges I've read about, heard, and experienced as both a DE and district volunteer , is that the leaders are not volunteers but "called" by the bishops, they do not have the proper training, expereince, or level of commitment that non-LDS units have. I had instances where I am trying to track down who the leaders actually are because the bishop has changed them, but the paperwork from council has not caught up and I have no contatc info. I remember playing phone tag for a month one time trying give out Cub Scout Day Camp info. The pack changed CMs about 3 times since recharter, and my contact at the church couldn't even keep up.

One good thing, the LDS church recognizes this challenge, and I beleive is now stating that BSA leadership callings are for 2 years minimum. Grant you, you are still getting your feet wet, but it is an improvement.

SSt3rd,

LDS troops do things a little differently since they incorporated Scouting into their youth ministry back when you had to be 12 to be a Scout.

When a youth turns 11, the officially become a Boy Scout with BSA, but they cannot do camp outs until 12 with the LDS troops. So 11 years olds have an ASM who deals just with the 11 year olds, they meet and do their own activities until 12, then do stuff with the troop.

Hopefully things will change in some regards with the new Cub Scout program. Now going camping is going to be required to advance from what I have glanced over.

Agree with LeCastor, don't beat yourself up, but follow your conscious.

I've met functional alcoholics, but you got to be 110% on your toes when you got responsibilites for youth. Heck I remember working day camp after I had surgery, and I wouldn't take my prescription pain killers because they were narcotics and may affect me. Took 4 advil instead.

Has the Scout asked the SM why he can't have the cards? I'd have the scout bug the heck out of the SM at every single meeting until the cards are given. If memory serves, since the bishop calls LDS leaders, Scout may need to chat with the bishop about the issue.

Mash,

Tough call as I know there may, stress MAY, be negative repurcussion on you. BUT I think you needed to go up the chain and tell yur suspicions.

First time I had an incident like this was in the UK where some some Dutch Scouters were lighting up marijuana cigarettes. Told the "camp warden" (what they call the rangers over there), and it was handled appropriately and without any repucussions on my part. Apprently it's a common situation since the Dutch forget that marijuana is illegal outside of Holland at the time.

But the second time was dealing with summer camp staff and alcohol. I became persona non grata at camp after reporting the incident. Luckily I lived 20 minutes away from camp, so I essentially commuted to my camp staff position the rest of the summer. What really ticked me off was that I got no support from my immediate boss on the matter. Would I do it again, even knowing the repurcussions, ABSOLUTELY!

I wanted to add this. I know of some camps that have used specific "paper pushing" MBs to their advantage, namely Journalism, Photography, and Cinematography. What the camps have done for journalism is have the scouts do the camp newspaper that week at camp. Nights were involved, but that can be attributed to how actual newspapers work. Yes the camp newpaper varied in quality from week to week, but it worked.

Photography and Cinematography were done to basically to get a closing campfire done, showing events of the past week. A plus was that a compilation of the work was used by the OA for camp promos the next year.

Stosh,

I know some folks hated the Skill Awards from 1972 - 1989, but I grew up in that period and liked how they allowed you to focus on one skill at a time, mastering the skills. I also liked how there was tenure requirements between T-2-1. For me there was no pressure to learn those skills to advance ASAP. It allowed us time to rally master those skills. Also sometimes you can learned "extra" stuff. I know I learned extra skills that, while not advancement oriented, were still important. And I admit, when first aid is scheduled, I like providing "extra" skills. Best example would be tonite. I have access to epi-pen trainers and I have an expert giving the lessons tonite on that. Why you ask, because the Scout teaching epi-pen use does have sever allergic reactions, and folks have had to use the epi-pen he keep on him twice during meetings when he was a Cub. So I consider that skill extremely important, even if it isn't in the requirements.

2Cub,

Agree with ya 110% on getting rid of the no retesting policy. G2A states that the badge represents what the scout CAN do, not what he has done. How can we know a Scout can do something if we cannot ask him to show us how it is done. Now the following may be anathema, but I will say it anyway. In regards to First Aid skills, if the Scout is not able to do the most current version of first aid, but can do the previous version correctly, I'll cut him some slack. Whye especially since First Aid is a big deal for me? Because every 5 years, first aid and CPR goes through revisions. And I've noticed a bit of lag time on getting BSA publications up to speed ont he most current techniques. FYI this year are the 2 big conferences that review first aid and CPR, so expect some changes to comeout in the Oct-Nov. time frame, and new AHA and ARC books to come out in March-Aug 2016.

On a similar note, I say this: DO AWAY WITH FIRST AID MERIT BADGE ALTOGETHER, INCORPORATING THE SKILLS IN THE T-2-1 REQUIREMENTS AND CREATE A WILDERNESS FIRST AID MERIT BADGE. (caps are emphasis, not shouting.) It chaps my hide that national no longer acknowledges the abilities of scouts to do first aid in a wilderness setting unless they go to an outside agency and get certified. For me, the requirement for WFA certification in order to do HA trips is all the proof of a problem with advancment.

And I agree, never heard the term 'Eagle Mill" until way after 1989. In fact I don't think I heard that term at all until 1996 or so, which is well after FCFY was implemented.

What I would like is MBCs to make sure the scouts truly mastered the skills they are working with the Scout on. I personally know that it can be upsetting to both parent and Scout to learn he didn't truly earn a MB. My son "earned" a MB at a MBC that after talking to him about, I discovered he actually didn't earn. He was rather upset at first that I told him I would not submit the paperwork to the SM until he did the requirements. But after talking to him, he understood, and had a blast doing the missing MB requirements.

My wishes for 2015:

1) That my son the SPL continues to amaze me with the performance of his duties

2) That I am able to be able to attend the full week of summer camp with the troop. In-laws shocked the heck out of me with their Christmas gift of a family vacation to see the Mouse, and Harry Potter, this summer. I'd rather go camping than an amusement park.

3) That the troop's SM will be in good health until more adults can help him out.

4) That my son's troop continues on their path to be a Scout-led, "Hiking and Camping Troop" with a little bit of boating added in

5) That younger sons can go and have a good time at CSDC this summer.

My fears for 2015:

1) Something happens to the SM before folks can get in place to help him. When I heard he was in the ICU, I was scared.

2) CSDC will be a mess since they have not even started planning it yet at the council level and our district's CSDC director dropped out of scouting.

3) I can find a replacement for me as a DL for youngest son's den.

4) I am not able to make the entire week of summer camp.

5) My son the SPL will get overwhelmed. Yes this fear is still there, but it is lessening every time I see him in action.

I went to summer camp in the 1980s, and MBs were a part of the program. I am going to stress PART OF THE PROGRAM, because summer camp was so much more than the MBs: free shooting, boating, swimming, goofing off staff manhunt and watermelon bounties, camp olympics, night time programs, etc.

MBs tended to be outdoor oriented, and with few exceptions they were no daily nighttime classes except astronomy (go figure ) Sure you may need to spend a nite doing the Wilderness Survival overnighter, or may need to spend a few hours doing CPR certification, but nights were meant for the various programs and goofing off.

Maybe it was just my SM, but always recommended leaving one afternoon class period free fro free swim, boating, or shooting. Only year I didn't do that was when I did the camp's "HA" program, and left the main camp Monday morning for a week of backpacking and trailblazing.

Unfortunately some parents and leaders are focused on the number of MBs their Scouts get rather than on how much fun the Scouts have. So some camps have become MB factories. I remember the last time I was teaching a MB on camp staff, and I had leaders complaining because their scouts didn't complete the MB. Well when A) you put more people into the class than can be handled by the instructors and B) you got Scouts who don't want to be in the class

causing problems, but you can't kick them out b/c they paid for the class, you will have issues.