Eagle94-A1

Not Girl Scouts, but with American Heritage Girls and now Frontier Girls. I know of a pack that had an AHG troop that did camp with them as alot of the Cubs also had sisters in AHG. With AHG no longer associating with BSA, that AHG troop became a Frontier Girls troop.

My thoughts:

1) While STEM does have a place in Scouting, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." (William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt) if there is no "outing" it aint Scouting.

1a) Maybe the STEM push is for national to learn some math and get the quote correct in the BSHB;)

2) Folks at national need to remember the mistakes of the 1972 Improved Scouting Program that took the "OUTING out of ScOUTING." Because BSA took the emphasis off of the outdoors, membership dropped drastically.

2a) Could it be that all the Eagles from the 1970s that didn't go camping are a reason why troops only need 4 camp outs a year for JTE as well as the "one and done" mentality?

3) If national really wants to promote STEM, do away with some of the current height restrictions on pioneering projects, emphasis doign things correctly and safely, and have some fun.

Wanted to add a few things as I was under time restraints.

1) Had to practically beg them to invite Webelos to camp with them 3 years ago. Thankfully one of the ASMs had a son in my den and they finally did get invited. But then I had to do it again last year, trying to get another den invited to camp with them. Another troop invited those Webelos because the CO's troop waited until a week before the event to invite them to join them.

2) I mentioned how they invited my son's den to a meeting a month before they were to cross over. My son and I didn't go as my mother-in-law was in the hospital. But from two fo the Webelos who did attend, they stated they felt a lot of pressure to join them. This past year, they didn't even invite Webelos to a meeting.

3) Pack leadership tried to coordinate Scout Sunday with them and never get response.

4) My son realized he didn't want to join that troop after his camp out with them as a Webelos I. But I told him not to discuss it with anyone, and encouraged him do any activities with the troop if invited despite knowing he would not be going there. I didn't want his entire den following him to another troop. His best friend joined the troop with him, and the rest joined the CO's troop. It was only after they joined the troop and began getting frustrated that I talked to them and their parents about visiting. Out of the 5 that went to that troop, 2 transferred to use, 2 quit, and the ASM's son is the only one left.

5) Because they do nothing with the pack, nor go to RTs, last year's Webelos leader met both the SM and ASM of my troop at RT. His Webelos were invited to camp with us, visited one of our meetings. Yep they joined us except for 1. He had friends in another troop.

6) So far this year, they have done nothing with the Webelos. And those parents and leaders who are hearing about the lack of camping, not participating in district events, etc are concerned. One reason why the CM actuallly went out of his way to meet and visit the troop. He sees we are not perfect, but knows what our plans are and has and a relationship is developing.

7) I've seen this since I was a Webelos, if a troop doesn't have a relationship with its pack, then you cannot expect them to automatically join you. You gotta nurture a relationship

BLW,

I feel for you. I'm a Cub Scout leader with one CO, and a Boy Scout leader with a different CO. I talk about the troops activities, and have invited Webelos to one of my troop's events. I know of at least 2 Webelos who will be crossing over to us next year.

My question is this, what has your CO's troop done with your pack?

I feel bad for the CO as they do support Scouting. I do not want to see their troop die. Heck I helped train the original Boy Scout leaders, worked with their scouts, and it was because of the troop that I brought my oldest to the pack to visit first. But the change in SMs has taken its toll on the troop. Scouts are leaving left and right. They go on few camp outs, and mostly merit badge weekends at camp. Their meetings are MB classes or basketball in the gym. It seems ad if the new leadership is only concerned with boys getting Eagle.

It seems as if they view anything non-Eagle related as a waste of time. Scouting for Food was suppose to be a joint venture with the pack, and they didn't participate. They have not invited Webelos to camp with them in 2 years, and have not invited them to visit in a year. We've asked for Den Chiefs, and only got them when another troop said they would give us some. Then the ones we got were as bad, if not worse, than the Cubs. One DL told one DC not to come back.

It is a very frustrating situation for me, one that I admit I need to let go of. But it is very hard to see something you put effort into fall apart.

You got all kinds of advice from us, but what does your son want? If your son wants to stick it out, and fight to keep the troop alive, then by all means go for it. Is it hard? yep. Is it worth it? Maybe.

If your son wants to move, then do it.

I was in a similar situation in. Son made the decision, and I've been happy ever since.

2Cub,

If they were camping, and stated they were not coming to camporee, I would not have a problem. But this is the troop that said they were coming, picked events to run, and then decided not to attend without letting anyone running the event know that they were not coming and to find someone else to run their event. They also have cancelled one camp out, which was council camporee, less than 24 hours before it started. The 2 folks who transferred into my troop both cited the lack of camping as one of reasons for leaving.

Now in regards to training, I agree with you. I even made a comment similar to yours. But the guy running it said that is how the book wrote the rule. 4 out of 4 did pass the challenge.

In regards to uniforms and service projects, don't get me wrong as I am pro uniform. BUT some service projects the uniform is not appropriate wear. Best example I can give was the reforestation project one of my friends did. It was in a swamp.

As Qwazse said, have your troop's leaders pick his brain.

I am so sorry for the loss.

This has happened to us, and we've done it to others. We've lost Scouts to a nearby troop for several reasons: friends in the troop, they are more active, and they meet on a better night for the scouts in question. We have also gained Scouts fo similar reasons, we are more active than their current troop, they have friends in the troop, etc.

My troop leadership's stance is that we don't care where they go as long as they are happy. Our concern is when they drop out of Scouting altogether.

SP,

I hate to say it, but we have done that. The SM, before he became SM, was invited to be on the district advancement committee. Attended only one meeting, and never showed up again. Explanation was he got promoted at work, and no longer had the time. Asked others and they said they don't have the time or want the job. It's almost as if all they focus on is getting their sons to Eagle.

Old,

Only 2 troops do not attend RT; the troop in question, and the LDS troop. And I discovered the LDS troop has started sending someone to RT the past 2 months.

As for why they don't atttend, for this troop, it is because "we (unit leaders) don't have time to attend another meeting every month." Yep that was the reply they gave folks on Facebook. They do use FB, and when it was suggested we put the info on FB they said that it was a good idea. And they are still active on FB as that is where they commented on the district politics.

In regards to training, the SM and ASM Specific course is not the problem. It's offered at the local merit badge college as an all day course for leaders. And they are all into merit badge weekends/colleges. It's the weekend long ITOLS class that they have a problem with. That is the one they think should be offered more than once a year in the district, and it should be availble whenever they want it.

In years past, we only offered ITOLS once a year. And when the district discovered that they were getting a new SM, we went into hyperdrive to get it set up AND to accomodate them. We got the troop's schedule from the outgoing SM so that they could attend. We had the outgoing SM, and one of the troop's former ASM's be part of the staff. The training was done at "their" campsite at a local nature preserve. Heck we even used some of their equipment with the permission of the outgoing SM. And only 1 showed up.

Since the ITOLS syllabus has a clause for testing out of ITOLS, basically demonstrating the skills to the trainer and being "peer-to-peer training," We started a "Are You Smarter Than a First Class Scout" ITOLS Challenge Day. You have to demonstrate all of the ITOLS skills, and it is "Pass/Fail" If you fail one skill, you need to take the weekend course. So last year the district offered 2 opportunties to complete ITOLS. Comments from them were that they didn't like the "pass/fail" nature of the challenge day, and the weekend selected was a bad weekend for them to attend.

As you can see, we have brought ITOLS to them once.

Now asking the right questions got me thinking. Based upon a conversation I had with the new SM on this topic, and some of the comments he made to me and others, I think he wants to train his own unit leaders himself. Several issues with that 1) District tried that once a long time ago and it didn't work out to well. To many inconsistancies, and folks being "trained" but not knowing the skills. 2) While the district has done "one man show" trainings, the team approach really is best as you get more folks involved. Having "experts" in each skill area is a lot better than someone who knows the basics to pass the course teaching. 3) He won't teach what should be taught per the syllabus, but what HE thinks should be taught. While the SM is fully trained, he doesn't always follow BSA program. When folks have tried to coach and mentor him, he said he knows what he is doing, and that Scouting needs to "adapt" to modern times.

When I did CSDC, I had three questions.

1) What were 3 things you liked about day camp?

2) What were three things you did not like about day camp?

3) What are 3 things you would like to see done next year at day camp?

'Gripper,

Yes, the district can't make them do anything. One the boy scout side of things, my district does very well getting the info out to the troops. That info is given out at RTs that they don't attend. We even post info on a district Facebook page. But they complain about not getting information.

One of the comments by the SM that chapped my hide related to training. He said that a leaders shouldn't have to leave the district to get the training when they want it. And if there isn't enough staff to provide training when leaders want it, we should hire trainers to come in and do it for the district.

Now what rubbed me the wrong way was A) each district coordinated 1 SM and ASM Specific and 1 ITOLS training per year, so there are 9 opportunties in my council to get training. But he doesn't want to leave the district. B) When an ITOLS session was planned around that unit's schedule, specifically for that troop, only 1 leader showed up. Comment made by the others was "it's too cold to camp." Heck we had out of council folks attending the session.

What does the program patrol want to do?

May be this needs to be spun off, so mods if you feel this needs to be done, please do so.

How do you get a unit INVOLVED with the district?

You know from other threads the situation with one of the troops in my district, specifically the my Cub Scout pack's troop. They do not attend roundtables, do not attend district and council camporees, complain about the "lack of training" in the district, etc. We've tried getting district level folks to talk to them, to no avail. Had UC and acting UC (me, original UC passed away) talk to them, again to no avail. then this weekend happened.

My council's Scouting for Food started this weekend; we put out the flyers saying leave food out next Saturday. My pack's CM noticed that the area the troop normally does was not flyered, and asked if the troop needed some help. SM responded that the area assigned was to small for the troop, and that since there is "so much politics on the district level" they didn't want to ask for a larger ares. So they completely skipped out of it.

Every unit is run differently: some are laid back in attendance, some are as demanding as school extracurricular like sports and band. So the the time demands by the troop vary widely.

My question is this, are there other issues going on? I know that I've seen folks have scholastic issues as a result of family trauma: divorce, illness, death, etc.

Another question is this: is the negative attitude just 1 teacher or all of them? I had a teacher that I had philosophical differences with Junior year. I hated that class. Thankfully that teacher was honest enough to let our differences not bias my grades. Gave me a hard time, yes. But was fair with my grades, yes.

I had a professor in college that would play that game.

Depends. On the Boy Scout side of things, RTs are well attended, only 2 troop to my knowledge that do not attend.

Cub Scouts is a different matter. only 2 packs regularly attend, and that is with me emailing, posting on FB etc and announcing that we are going over all the different changes that will begin on June 1st.

As for knowing what is going on, Boy Scout side is pretty well informed and get input. CS side not so much. Part of it is the fact that the CS activities chair does not attend any RTs, just hands out info to the DE. No input from any pack leaders, just by fiat. Best example of fiat, moving dates of events. Traditionally one event was in Novemeber, and this year it was moved up 2 months, before every pack had completed their round ups! It was only when 2 leaders mentioned the round up factor that the DE presenting the info realized that and got the event pushed back. But it moved to a weekend that was already booked for another scouting event, and attendance was low.

Another event is usually in late February or early March. However she started moving the event earlier and earlier. This year she moved it to the second weekend in January. Despite protestations that is causing a scheduling nightmare for all of the packs when announced in September, she wouldn't change it. It was after packs already redid their pack calendars to accomadate the earlier date and went into Christmas Break, that it was announced they were pushing back a week to the MLK holiday weekend. Several complaints about how families had already planned their 3 day weekend and it should have been announced sooner. District PWD is the biggest event of the year, and this year we only had 70 Cubs participate. It was mentioned that PWD participation has dropped 41% over the past 3 or 4 years since they started moving up the dates.

On a slightly different, but relevent tact, has anyone on the cub side of things looked at the new program materials? Because of the format of the program; 2 den meetings, an activity, and pack meeting, and the fact that there is a lot of interconnectivity between the advancement requirements (examples I read were Bears teaching skills to younger Cubs and Webelos planning and leading hikes ) as well as the requirement for a theme related activity. Cub Scout activities on the district level are really going to need to be coordinated.

As others have said, the CO owns the equipment, and can even take it away from you. I know of one CO that was dropping their troop, but wanted to keep all the troop's gear. When the troop found out what was going to happen, they practically emptied the unit's bank account and sold all their gear at dirt cheap prices to units their boys were going to.

Another unit got a new IH that hated Scouting.Gave the unit their marching orders, but allowed the troop to keep their gear. Committee was thankful the IH was not involved in the program, and didn't know the extent of what the troop had, because they feared she would keep everything and use it for the youth group she started our place.

Poor judgement of the leader, and CO should remove.

But sometimes, as others have stated, things happened. On one scouting camp out, one of my friends came upon one couple that happened to be in the same area we were in. On a non-scouting event, I was walking down a trail and came upon 4 bottoms over a log.

Yep, EVERYONE HAS A HEALTH FORM (all emphasis) is from national. No health form, no weekend activities.

A few ideas.

1) Have Parts A and B, the parts that do not need a physician to sign and are valid for up to 72 hours, filled out when recharter is due.My Cub Scout Pack does that.

2) One month prior to summer camp, everyone going has to turn in a current Part C, the one the MD, DO, PA, or RNP must fill out.

3) use an accordion style folder, place everyone in alphabetical order, and SEAL IT. Bring on every activity

4) Make sure folks with epi-pens tell folks about them and where they are on their person.

As someone who has had to go to the hospital multiple times on Scouting business, having the paperwork helps tremendously.

EDITED: How much training has the committee members and those involved with the decision making had? With all do respect to committee members, that is my current position with my son's troop, but most I have encountered do not have any training except Youth Protection. My suggestion is to get tghe online training, and even do SM Specific.

Stosh,

There are a bunch of different requirements that are supposed to be met in order for a campground to be approved by the council for camping. Yep the council is suppose to pre-approve camps that Cubs can use.List can be found in the B.A.L.O.O. syllabus. Having shower and bathing facilities is one of the requirements, but I know of a camp that has neither, but is still used for Cubs. Port-o-potties are used to meet the bathroom requirement, and a solar shower was purchased for meeting that requirement. But the shower isn't used.

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but that hasn't happened in mine. Heck I've commented to the OA folks that they could put some type of notation in the Where To Go Camping book of the Cub Approved camps, and give those books out to the packs as well. Comment I got was "Cubs don't need to camp."

One idea in my neck of the woods that has never been followed through: a Backpacking/Mobile Camporee. Basically everyone starts at one location and stays overnight. Next morning, everyone is given an azimuth to shoot, then go to that location with all their gear. At the spot they do the event, shot a 2nd azimuth and repeat. eventually all end up at the main camp.

Qwaz,

As I said, "I personally... BUT ...'never ask an adult what you can ask a scout." And as you well know, I have been wrong before .

As for the SPL, very rough around the edges, and needs some mentoring like all first time SPLs, but otherwise doing well. Training went well, but sometimes I do think it went in one ear, and out the other.

As for being asked to run a camporee, I could see him staffing one in 2-3 years. And thinking about it, I know I would love the challenge as a Scout. But considering what I've seen him do at the troop lock in, as well as hearing about what he's done during patrol corners the past 2 weeks, I have a very strong suspicion ( and again I could be wrong) that he would indeed pass on the opportunity in order to help his newest NSP and their troop guide. Yep, he's been working with them a lot to get them up to speed. In all honesty he's a better PL or TG than SPL, but that's because he's "Been there, done that, has the patch.":p

Then again, he may just want be a.... TIMELORD and wear their T.A.R.D.I.S. Patrol emblem.

Stosh,

LOVE IT! (and yep I'm yelling this go around )

In regards to the scouts running the event, I personally would not do that as I would stick with adults running the events. My rationale for that is the camporee is FOR THEM (emphasis, not shouting,) and I think t would be more fun for them to participate than staff.

BUT, as BP once said, "never ask an adult what you can ask a scout."

So I'd ask the OA chapter their thoughts.

Some ideas if the OA said it's a great idea and wants to follow through.

1) Get the OA on board ASAP. They are probably your largest group of scouts at one time.

2) Get the SPLs together ASAP to start organizing and planning

3) Embrace the scheduling nightmare if you want all scouts, including staffers, to have fun.

A) Stagger when events are done so that event staffers have time to do events

B) Have some"Special Events" that do not require scouts to staff. BEST SPECIAL EVER was a US Army Special Forces display. We are within driving distance of Bragg, and our camporee chief had some connections there. OK, the Blackhawk had to cancel last minute due to a hurricane, and the entire group could not come ( they were supposed to ride the Blackhawk) but we did have two soldiers with their kit drive up and put on a demo for us. Did I mention it was the BEST SPECIAL EVER? ( and yes those last two caps were me screaming in that old V-Bar camp staff voice!)