Eagle94-A1

@@SpEdScouter,

Why do we need summer camp? YES WE DO!

Do they need to be MB factories? No they do not.

What are some aspects about summer camp?

1. FUN

2. Place to apply Scouting for a week away from it all. One week at camp is worth a year of meetings.

3. Bonding with fellow Scouts in patrol and troop. This is a big one for new Scouts as you can read about in Phrogger's post and based upon my personal experience and observations.

4. Challenges Scouts need. As I mentioned, summer camp does not have to be a MB factory. But some camps do provide challenges that Scouts need via BSA Lifeguard, COPE, and other older scout programs. Also HA activities, i.e. backpacking, kayakaing, etc are ways for older challenge themselves. I vividly remember my canoe trip in the Canadian wilderness.

5. I don't have enough time to keep going on.

When I was in the UK, one of the Finns I worked with laughed her butt off at me wearing long sleeve shirt, sweatshirt, and field jacket when it was 50-56 degrees F (10-13 degrees F) and and she was wearing shorts and a tank top. She was from Lapland in the Arctic Circle, and the temps were a nice summer day for her.

I had my revenge though   It got above 61degrees F (16 degrees C), and she was complaining and sweating up a storm. I told her it was a nice winter day where I came from.

I just saw this:

https://voiceofscouting.org/chief-scout-executive-asks-us-serve-entire-family

Looks like the top man is looking at us going coed. Going to get interesting, especially with LDS units.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! Sorry to hear it's under challenging circumstances though.

Hoping for some encouragement. My son crossed over to Boy Scouts at the end of last year. His den leader decided to cross all the boys early and finish Webelos I and II in one year. I did not agree to this but had no choice about it. I feel we were cheated out of a summer of Cub Scouts and a transition year. But I digress. We joined the same Boy Scout troop that his friends did.

 

Based upon my experience, you may have been cheated. Different packs do different things, so some packs begin the Webelos to Scout transition earlier than others. My old Webelos den was ready to cross over after a year, but they didn't meet the 6 months since turning 10 or 6 months since completing 4th grade requirement so they stuck it out. But they interacted with troops. On the opposite side of things, we had a pack that didn't really begin the transition process until 3 months before Crossover, not only did they have a rude awakening, they also caused major issues with their patrol as they were still in Cub Scout mode.

 

Boy Scouts is such a different program than Cub Scouts.  Yes it is completely different, to the point that many adults have a  hard time adjusting. I've found that most youth adjust easily IF they are prepared in advance. In the past few years (we were in Cubs 3 years) the Cub Scouts we were involved with made efforts to include STEM activities and things such as model rockets and planes, 3-d printing, amateur radio, etc. We also did the outdoor activities and service projects, and summer day camps were pirate themed or astronaut themed. We even had an Apollo 13 ground controller come talk to the group. He also loved the Pinewood Derby. STEM is a relatively new thing in Scouting, so new that there are some who think it actually hurts the program. Many units are not into it. But in Boy Scouts they only seem to plan traditional scouting activities, not all of which my son enjoys or is able to participate in. 20 mile hikes, kayak trips (which my son isn't allowed to participate in since he didn't go to summer camp and take the swim test), mountain biking, or rock climbing (neither of which my son has the physical strength to do or interest in). Trips are supposed to be decided upon by the youth. A variety of factors are involved in that, including the needs of the older youth.  At meetings they work on their physical fitness requirements (situps, pushups yay) and tie ropes. I didn't send him to summer camp because he's so young (and didn't want to go anyway), but we went to the family campout together and it was miserable. One of the things I push new Scouts to do is GO TO SUMMER CAMP! ( caps for emphasis, not shouting.) Some of the reasons for that is 1) Social acceptance into the troop, 2) the tremendous jump in skills and knowledge they get, and 3) Its FUN!  By social acceptance, I've found that summer camp is where the scouts in the patrol and troop really get to know one another because they are living with each other for a week. They share common experiences and bond.  I missed my first summer camp, and my old CS den mates who went were accepted more into the troop. Because I didn't go, I was still more of an outsider. By Jump in skills, I know that my buddies who went to summer camp that first summer camp back WAY ahead of me in basic outdoors skills and had a jump on me advancement wise as a result. Grant you result may vary from camp to camp, as well as year to year. But the First Year Camper Director we had back in the day made  sure you learned. No planned activities, the boys didn't even include my son in their card games or football tossing since he was the youngest one there (he's 10). Part of it is his age, but I bet a big chunck of that is that the other scouts still do not really know him sinc ehe didn't go to camp. He briefly got excited when they held troop leadership elections, and he wanted to do the drums for the opening ceremony, but he wasn't selected for anything, so that tiny bit of encoragement evaporated. Surely there's some minor leadership post they could assign so new boys feel more involved. Even if it's just "you're in charge of turning out the lights after the meeting" or something. At this stage of the game, he needs really needs to focus on learning the basic Scout - Tenderfoot- Second Class- First Class skills as well as learning the dynamics within his patrol and being responsible for patrol level duties, i.e. grubmaster, cheer master, etc. And if your troop uses Mixed aged patrols instead of New Scout Patrols, he may even be an assistant so he can learn.

 

My son is completely out of his element and has been begging me to quit since day 1, even though he enjoyed Cub Scouts. I'm not sure what to do. I think that maybe in 3 years with a little growth and maturity he may enjoy it, but how hard should I push him to stay? Will it get better? Should I shop for a new troop or wait a while? I understand that traditional scout activities are the heart of the program, and the boy-led leadership philosophy is good in theory, but we just aren't finding anything to like about it yet.

 

First and foremost BOY LED LEADERSHIP DOES WORK IF USED PROPERLY; IT IS NOT "GOOD IN THEORY!" One of the biggest complaints I have is brand new adults coming in trying to apply Cub Scouts ideas to Boy Scouts. I admit I'm just as guilty of jumping in as the rest of us old fogeys. While it is a challenge to get there, I'm facing that with my troop, IT WORKS BEST LONG TERM! As for the rest I got a few questions for ya.

 

1) Did you visit other troops, go camping with them etc? 

 

2) WHAT DOES YOUR SON WANT TO DO?

 

Everyone has an opinion on visiting troops, i.e. some only want you to visit the CO's troop, and other want you to visit several troops to get one that meets the Scout's needs. While all troops have the same ideals, goals, etc, every troop applies them differently.  Your son may want to visit other troops and get a feel for them. I know my son visited camped with one troop, and didn't like the experience. So we went looking. We found one that did a lot of mentoring with the younger Scouts, only to find that the troop folded and became part of Trails Life. 3rd troop, while having challenges, was the one he liked and is now in.

How about seeing if his old pack needs a den chief.  Best of both worlds than.  He can continue doing cub scout activities as a leader and maybe help plan some which would help him out with moving into a boy lead troop.  Good luck!

I do not recommend this. I've seen young Scouts become DCs and it has not worked out as they want too much to play and do the CS activities. I strongly suggest finding another troop.

@@SpEdScouter ,

It can be a combination of factors. I know the council I grew up in sold the original camp because of urban encroachment and the camp was too small because property owners who use to let the Scouts tramp about sold the property and the new owners said no more. What I fin ironic is that the camp was created in the 1920s, and the closest town started expanding after the 1950s. The new neighbors began complaining about the noise, traffic, etc of having a camp as their next door neighbor. Thankfully the council purchased property that was 3+ times the size of the original camp.

But I admit, I'm concerned, especially about the local camp in my district. The property around the camp is being sold off. In the past 10 years, 3 MacMansions have arisen, and a popular hiking trail that we had access to was closed off by the new property owners. And not everyone has heard that yet as it is that recent! My understanding is that a trust owns the property, so it cannot  be sold. But one SE so neglected the camp, that the only reason it was able to survive was because of individual units and OA chapters investing in it and doing repairs and maintenance. Over a 10 year period, the OA chapter alone spent $10-$12,000 alone on supplies to maintain the camp. And that doesn't include all the man-hours involved, or what local units did. Under the new NCAP program, I don't know what will happen.

 This would slow the rush to Eagle and is not what the BSA wants. One can lecture and hold discussions with dozens of scouts at once. Hard to supervise dozens of cooks at once.

And that is part of the problem, people at national having little or no experience as a youth in the program coming up with rules. Also there is a lot of pressure from parents, as well as leaders too. I had a leader at camp tell me one of my scouts was wasting his time because he was taking swimming MB a second time because he wanted to swim during the middle of the day, and the only way to do that was to take Swimming MB again, or Lifesaving MB again. OK I admit I wished he would have taken Lifesaving a second time, butonly because I wanted to be an active victim on him

@@thrifty

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

I've been lurking on these forums recently while looking for a better understanding of all things "scout."  I've found a lot of your opinions on various topics informative.  I'm definitely jealous of how well-run your troops seem to be.  I think some of my questions are relating to this topic, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread.  How old are the boys in your leadership positions?

 

Current troop is not well organized, but has so much potential 15 y.o. First Class SPL, 15 year old Star PL, 13yo Tenderfoot PL who needs to do a 5 mile hike and can go fro Second Class and First Class, and a 12 y.o. Tenderfoot PL

 

I keep reading various comments about adults interfering with boy lead groups and the boys should be running the troop, etc...  Our troop is boy lead but I have concerns about this.  Our SPL recently turned 16.  He's one of the oldest boys in the troop after several aged out in the past 2 years.  Our PL's are 12 or 13 and the APL's have just turned 12.  The SPL is very mature for his age and deserves the position but could use some more experience.  I'm not trying to undermine the contributions these younger boys can make to the troop and they do work with the newest scouts but shouldn't there be more adult involvement when you are working with kids this age?  I keep my opinions to myself but I just don't get it.

 

NO (emphasis), more adult involvement is not needed UNLESS A) Health and Safety, i.e Scout gets caught in a riptide, or B) It's skills the Scouts, don't know, i.e. we had no Scouts save 1 with any backpackign expereince. So he and dad taught backpacking skills. My question is this : How can the scouts get leadership expereince if we do not give them the opportunity to lead? Our job as adults is to guide and mentor. I usually use the Socratic Method of asking questions about their performance, how they did, how they can improve etc.  Wise man who came out of retirement to save the BSA said ti best when refering to the Scouts and leadership: "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

 

A few examples - A PL sent out an email asking for his patrol to meet up to go shopping for groceries prior to camping.  It was 3:30 in the afternoon on a weekday.  How are any of the others going to get to the store if their parents are at work?  No arrangements such as sharing a ride were suggested.  The boys at 2016 summer camp voted to have 2017 camp at the same place.  SM paid the deposit while there.  Shouldn't that have required at least some discussion with parents or committee?  Most of the boys don't even know how much it cost.  It was an expensive camp and I know some parents were not happy about this choice made without them. 

 

Regarding the shopping, that a time for the SPL if possible, or an adult Scouter to sit down, ask questions, and get them to realize they need to think things through. Regarding summer camp, the Scouts are the ones who are suppose to decide where they go. Sure they can get some input and ideas from the adults. BUT THE SCOUTS DECIDE! ( emphasis) As for not knowing how much it costs, why don't they. A scout is suppose to pay his own way. Ok I'm guilty on that, but oldest know what I'm paying. And I'm in the process of trying to get the PLC to get some findraisers going. With middel son become a Boy Scout in Decmeber, I'm in trouble

 

 

Our son consistently says that they don't do anything during their weekly meetings.  I recently witnessed a PLC for the first time and most of the boys sat there just staring at the table, waiting to go home.  The SM did a good job of "forcing" some of them to contribute but why wouldn't more adult input be desired? 

 

Who is leading the meetings adults or Scouts? What are the topiucs they are working on and does it interest the Scouts, or something the adults want them to do? The reason why adult input is not desired UNLESS asked, is that it is EXTREMELY EASY TO TAKE OVER ( emphasis again). Scouts must have ownership, they must come up with the ideas, make the decisions, execute the plans they make etc. if adults do ti for them A) they do not learn B) they do not own the program, become bored and dissilusioned and quit. Or in a current case, are staying in to earn Eagle so they can get their driver's license.

 

Long-winded post for a newbie.  No, it wasn't. Good questions

That's sort of like asking: if your boys want a youth-led movement, then why don't they get their leaders to adjust accordingly?

Isn't it?

 

From the few troops I've meet since my daughter left GSUSA, I've seen movement in that direction.

True. But a lot of the demand for the BSA to go fully coed is coming from parents. If the girls, and especially their parents, demanded change, it would come. It may be slow, but it will come. And you admit there is movement in that direction.

Me personally, I have mixed emotions. On one hand I know how important it for males to be by themselves and be guys. And I admit I am concerned about how the program will change. Let's face it there have been changes in the program since female SMs and ASMs have been allowed. And yes, I admit I did have a negative experience in my coed Sea Scout ship back in the day. The male Sea Scouts were forced to do things for the female members, and they did not carry their own weight.

But on the other hand, I know everything else in our society is going coed. I have also met female Venturers who pulled their own weight, and even carried their brother's weight.

If we use history as a basis, then things will change. When BSA allowed female SMs and ASMs, BSA had to change how training was conducted because most, by no means all but most, women Scouters did have the outdoor skills needed for Scouting. Further none of the ladies had the experience of the Patrol Method, the foundation of Scouting. Even with today's training there is little to no training on that.

My question is this: if the girls want an active outdoor program, then by don't they get GSUSA to change their program?

Your son has to make a choice: Stay with his friends and earn AOL or  Move up to Boy Scouts. He cannot do both.

I do not know how your pack handled the transition to the new requirements. Nor do I know how your pack handles its program. It may be that he has a month or two left, or he has 7  months minimum ahead. He has to think about it and make the decision.

My son figured out last year that if he wanted to, he could skip Webelos badge since it is not longer required, and start work immediately on AOL so that he could cross over at 10.5 and go to summer camp. He eventually decided to wait it out with his friends. He'll be 11 when he becomes a Boy Scout, while his buddies are 10-10.5, but he's OK with that.

 

Are they finally going to find a way to keep one ID for a volunteer or youth member?  Once assigned, there seems to be no reason that ID would not simply stay with you, even when you become an adult.  Surely would make tracking older records easier.  And, like we have one person on our charter that chooses to stay there, even though moved and is active elsewhere.  She has to register twice, and sends me verification of YP in the other council.  

I've been waiting for that to occur for 18 years now, ever since the then SCOUTNET 2000 Director told a bunched brand new DEs that that would be happening.

Yep we got a Moriarty in the troop

Yes, I gotta learn to live with what irks me, and the "negative waves" of some folks. I gotta remember to not let the "negative waves" bring me down.

I was in the same situation: needing TCDL knots.  What I was told to do is buy the DL knot and add the Tiger device to it. That is what recipients of the TCDL were told to do when the knot was abolished, and TDLs do now.

Ebay is another option, but be prepared to pay for it. One is for sale at $40 or thereabouts, and another has a current bid of $11.

Another option can be thrift stores. Back in the day, I was able to find all kinds of patches I needed, and traded, on used uniforms. Unfortunately that is not an option for me locally as our SCOUTREACH director has a standing order with all the local thrift stores.

Good luck

Currently we have 2 Scouts that are year round; one is homeschooled so summer activities are not a problem as the family can work around them. However the other is in a private, year round school, and it does indeed affect him. 

This past summer, the troop had a narrow window of weeks he could attend summer camp. He was unable to do trip he wanted to go on, the AT trek, due to being back in school.  Further on some late meeting nights, he had to cut it short due to homework and school. It's bad enough that his mother requires him to leave 30 minutes early whenever school is in session, but having to leave an hour early cuts into some stuff. (He lives 45 minutes one way away the troop. He's actually spends more time on the road than at meetings, but that is both His wish and his dad is willing to do whatever it takes.)

Two things I forgot to mention above. Regarding youth signing off on advancement there were two reasons given, both by two adults affected by this apparently.: PLs signing off their buddies for the heck of it and PLs "punishing" Scouts they do not like.  From what I am being told, the Scouts in the troop back in the day signed off on their buddies even if they had not mastered the skill and Pls woudl refuse to sign folks off who had mastered the skill. Also the youth on BORs, this was in the 1972 - 1989 time frame when youth were allowed on BORs, would fail those Scouts who they thought were not ready or out of pettiness. One adult mentioned how he failed 3 youth run Tenderfoot BORs, and only when he went before adults the 4th time did he earn Tenderfoot.

Second item was the patrol method. Someone asked if I'm such a big proponent of the patrol method, then why am I against national's current set up of NSP, Regular Patrol, Venture Patrol?  had to remind them that A) every unit can adapt elements of BSA's program to meet their needs, i.e. LDS units having 11 years olds in a separate patrol, limited # of campouts, etc; and B) From 1910 to 1989 there was no such thing as a NSP, unless you were in one of the experimental patrols or LDS, and that originally it was only mixed-aged patrols. Needs for older scouts were recognized so Sea Scouts, Explorer patrols, venture crews/patrols had come about over the years. Only since 1989 and Operation First Class has the concept of an NSP with a TG and ASM assigned to them have been around. Adult tried to say I was wrong about the TG and that the NSP worked only with an ASM. I asked can we get the book out to see who is right. Then he backed down.

On a personal note, I think the troop is taking a step in the right direction. But I also think the adults restraining the troop from being a full blown Scout run troop won't be leaving anytime soon. But I'm hoping discussion and compromise can occur. The Scouts themselves have so much potential.

Update.

The adults, minus the CC/COR and the IH, met.   Definite changes are headed our way, as well as some of the same.

Changes I like include

PLC meeting monthly for a "long" meeting and 15 minutes before each meeting.

Scouts run the meetings and doing more instructing. Also Interpatrol Activities will be incorporated.

Adults quit reforming the troop and keeping the current patrols, with adding new members to existing patrols; no more NSPs.

PLC members responsible for meeting the Scouts' advancement.

BORs scheduled for every month AND no more multiple Scouts having a BOR.

Same Old Same Old: 

Adults will be assigned to work with patrols. I told them I disagree with it because it's too easy to to turn it back into Cub Scouts. But majority said they are not ready to work 100% alone. Eventually

While PLC members can say the Scout has met requirements, Scouts cannot sign off on them still,. only an adult.

Changes I disagree with:  Before having an SMC, Scouts will be retested by the ASM assignd to their patrol to make sure they are proficient in the skills. Which begs the question: If adults are the only ones signing off, why the need for testing before an SMC?

My district is in the same shape, only a handful of MBCs will work with anyone. It has caused me to do something I not only dislike, but discourage: "officially" sign off on my son's MBs.  I'm an MBC for several MBs, including two my son got partials in at summer camp. Looking at the MBC list, I'm the only  MBC who will work with anyone, everyone else will only work with folks in their troop. Way I handle it is to get him to do the work with one of the ASMs, and when they say he's done it, then sign off.

In the 24 years as an MBC, I've had 4 people contact me, either by phone or in person at a camporee. Bulk of my counselor work has been summer camp, and MBUs.

Try these:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/seton/indoor/index.htm

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/seton/council/index.htm

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/indoor.htm

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/ripley/1_indoor.htm

And if needed http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/disabled/index.htm

Well, here are the events that the group that stepped down came up with, and the Scouts I talked to like.

Canoe Orienteering, yep an orienteering course that incorporates canoes and land

Scout Transport Pioneering

Kim's Game

Fire String Burning ( no takes on the boiling water, cooking a noodle, and tieing a square knot)

First Aid scenario using real life scenarios, and possible Webelos as victims

Tomahawk Throwing

Dutch Oven cook off

Skits

Uniform Inspection

Camp Inspection

And there is one more I cannot think of.

Regarding the cardboard boats, while I would love it, and probably the Scouts, When I mentioned the canoe orienteering to some adults, they hit me with some negative waves. Scout I talked to love it. From the negative waves I got from the adults, I think they would excrete a brick if I did cardboard boats.

ALTHOUGH looking at the Scout Transport info, there is a pioneering boat project in the book.

 

One final thought: folks keep participating in these discussions as if mixing girls into the BSA Troop program is inevitable. They don't understand the strength and will of the GSUSA. The BSA does however. If the BSA ever considers the idea of bringing in girls, they will have the wrath of the GSUSA on them and National won't know what hit them. So, with that in mind, the discussions should steer away from the BSA side and point more toward to giving girls a quality program their brothers are getting. I think your program is a model that could start that discussion.

 

 

Anecdotally I was told, and I think some on this website mentioned it a few years ago too, that in the 1970s there was talk about the BSA either merging with GSUSA or going coed.  Girl Scouts nixed that one.

As for facing the wrath of the GSUSA, national encountered that in the late 1980s, early 1990s. National supply wanted to come out with a Boy Scout Energy Bar that could be sold in Scout shops. GSUSA got a wind of it, and unleashed their lawyers on the BSA to stop it as the energy bar was too close to their cookies. I got a case of those Boy Scout energy bars when the scout shop moved and they were getting rid of unnecessary merchandise prior to the move.

I've seen mergers, and I've seen splits.

With one merger, youth took it well, but we still had some issues due to geography. Because of the Mississippi River and its bridges, at one point folks had to go out of the council's boundaries to get to the meeting place. Adults did have some issues, especially when it came time to nominating folks for the District Award of Merit and other local awards.

With a second district merger, contrary to the way things are suppose to be, the two OA chapters did NOT (emphasis) merge. Yes, one district had 2 OA chapters. Eventually the district split in two a few years later. 

At one point I was in a newly reformed district that still had a merged OA chapter. it took about 2 years after the district separation to get 2 different chapter going. 

'Skip,

BRAVO ZULU!  that is awesome.

I didn't know Mythbusters did a ducttape canoe, but I saw a duct tape kayak, and made one out of pvcpipe, ductape, and plastic sheeting.

Apparently I jumped the gun. There was a meeting in June where things were planned. However the two people involved backed out of the camporee, one for medical reasons ( for which I hope they get better),  and one for other reasons. 

Good news is that when I chatted with some older scouts in the troop about the events, with the exception of one, orienteering, they were happy with them. They suggested replacing orienteering with geocaching.

I rarely see scouts like the adult designed camporee beyond the first time.

I know.  I think that's one reason why the camporee chief stepped down, it was not fun. My troop looked at the events last year, and decided not to go. If I had some time to plan this, I'd go to the OA, and get  them to plan it instead. Or have some meetings with SPLs to get their ideas.

But I have 2 weeks to organize, come up with a guide, recruit, staff etc. Then I got about a month afterwards to get the camporee "fully armed and operational."  I got 7 weeks until "SHOWTIME!" Nothing like the last minute.

BTW, I am asking older two hoodlums for ideas. Plan on talking to some Scouts too, but don't have a lot of time, especially since I'm out of town for three days at some point.

Lashing. Timed. Make a working Catapult with points for distance.

You know the sign of a genius is how much a person thinks like you do.   Last year, they had a catapult competition involving built at meetings catapults. It was INTENSE.  Some of the catapults and trebuchets could have taken down the walls of Gondor.    I thought about making them build their own AT the camporee and firing for distance and/or accuracy (time permitting on accuracy). It was a fun thing to do at JLT back in the day.

Please keep ideas coming. Ask your Scouts, any help is greatly appreciated.