Eagle94-A1

Well, all depends on the child.  We have Second Class scouts that are barely able to car camp.  We have Tenderfoots that are experienced backpackers. 

Yeah we had a WEBELOS (emphasis) who did 40 miles on the AT with Mom and Dad. While a Scout, he taught classes on backpacking gear and backpacking cooking.  Long story short, he was disqualified from the backpacking cooking competition because 'we can't allow professionals."   And yes, there was no left overs with his dish

One needs to work these boys slowly into the backpacking process.  I'd start with carrying the sofa cushions to the kitchen every time they need a snack.

Actually SWMBO has loaded their backpacks with some gear and has been hiking them around the neighborhoods with Oldest so that all 4 of them could get ready for this weekend. THANKFULLY I was able to convince Middle Son he did not need his vintage, metal first aid kit with the spray can of local anesthetic. THAT KIT WAS HEAVIER THAN MINE!!!!!!

_{Not YPT, but Hazardous Weather. While I was able to see the certificate, I was unable to print it. I did a screen capture to show I completed it.}

_{Regarding MY.SCOUTING.ORG, I will quote the Second Doctor, aka "the Hobo," "You've changed things. HHHMMM, I don't like it."} 

_{It is not user friendly at all, and trying to get to some of the online training was a pain. Only good thing I can say is the search engine is better that scouting.org's one.}

OK understood.  Sometimes I'm dense.

Well the A.L.I.C.E. I have the son using have been modified. It has the M.O.L.L.E. belt and  newer, wider straps. Lot more comfortable than when I used it on a regular basis.

I admit I love A.L.I.C.E. but it's been on 2 of my three 50 milers, a NSJ and WSJ, my European Camp Staff adventure, and a host of other campouts. But I do realize it's dated, lots of improvements and tech since it was created 45+ years ago.

And after this loading up the car for the wife to go camping with the 3 hoodlums while I slave away at work, I need to start investing in backpacking gear. Trunk was maxed out, and the kids will have stuff in their laps.

ALICE is a _____________________.

All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment specifically the Field Pack - 8465-001-6480 - medium on a frame.  I've found the Medium A.L.I.C.E. can do double duty as a weekend backpack and a canoe bag. Especially ones with the quick release straps. They can attach to the thwarts.

The weight of a tumpline is measured in ounces. 

Some thing I tend to NOT want to remember.  On my second backtracking trek, I was overburdened with gear to the point my frame broke, specifically the area where the hip belt was. I made a trump line with rope and necker to help ease some of the weight off the shoulders. it helped. 

I woudl not call them "unofficial knots" unless they are new knots, i.e. NESA Lifetime Member Eagle Knot. I would call them "REPRODUCTION KNOTS" ( emphasis) sicne at one time BSA did make knots on a white background, navy background, and kelly green background. Don't know if they made them in a light blue background for Air Scouts or not.

I have 2 sets of white reproduction knots for my Sea Scout whites, a set of navy repros for when I either get a Sea Scout Centennial Uniform or service blue uniform, and I just got a set of green repros to go on my Exploring shirt. I would have sewn on the  VENTURING strip when they were handing htem out in '98, but the shirt had faded a tad bit and the strip would be VERY noticeable.

Well, I can't offer advice, but how do you like the Alps packs?  I've been looking at a couple of those (for me and son).

When debating on the Alps Pack sign up for https://www.hikerdirect.com/hd/sales_items  they sell Alps at a discounted price

I didn't know about Hikerdirect.com when I got my wife's sleeping bag. She loves it BTW, and my oldest steals it from her on occasion, like this weekend, because A) it's cold or B) compression sack. I did use hikerdirect.com for son's birthday present, a Mystique 1.5 tent. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/tents/lightweight-tents/mystique-15 

I hate to say it, I've used it more than him, and love it. Borrowing it for the weekend backpacking trek.

As for backpacks, we got these for the youngest two when they were on a Back To School Sale for about $40 each if I remember correctly. http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/day-packs/solitude .  They use them on the car camping trips and are really well made. I used it when we went on vacation last year, carrying a day's worth of food and drinks for 5 people. Comfy.

Now I admit, I'm partial to USGI surplus. It use to be cheap, and "If it's designed to survive combat, it may survive Boy Scouts." But looking at some of the hiker direct prices, WWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!

May I take a moment about Alps Mountaineering customer service? 1 word: AWESOME!   Father-in-law knew son wanted a tent, but couldn't find a decent one locally. I told him about Hiker Direct ( at the time ScoutsDirect) and he told me to get the Mystique 1.5 for son. They told me on the phone how long it would take to get it shipped, and it would be a day late. I was good with that and had an plan. I told ALPS thank you, and how my son will love his birthday present when he opens it up. Long story short, they processed the order that day in order to ship it so that he could receive it for his birthday!  THAT'S AWESOME CUSTOMER SERVICE!

And no, I do not work for ALPS nor own stock in the company.

EDITED: Looking at these for oldest; http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/red-tail-4900 or  http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/packs/internal-frame-packs/caldera-5500

Going to post something positive for a change, and it's the result of my Wolf. He asked me yesterday when can we go backpacking as a family. I told him he's camping with his mom this weekend. He said, "I know that, but I mean backpacking like you and [Oldest] are doing."

Looks like I need to either upgrade Oldest son's pack ( 37L with no hip belt) and let wife use the A.L.I.C.E., or get wife a new pack, and let Oldest use A.L.I.C.E. Plus I am going to need to get some more backpacking gear to cover a 5 man crew. Thankfully we got 40L Alps Mountaineering packs last year for the younger two when they were on sale.

I love corrupting my kids!

Well, son did surveys last night. It looks as if not everyone did one, but the ones he got are interesting. I asked him if I could read them and he said yes. They are all over the place. The older Scouts clearly see the problems and for the most part were honest. Although I do think they held back. But part of if was that several put their names on it, which was optional. One older scout without a name ( he shared a pen with a named Scout, hence telling he's an older scout) was very honest. Glad he was

One was downright sarcastic. Don't know who it was, but that was probably the most honest one. In it's sarcasm it shows how screwed up the troop is.

One of the younger scouts doesn't see any problems. But there was one Scout who thinks the adults need to get more involved and help. While I think I know who it is writing that, I do not know for sure.

On a different note, I was polite and professional. Only group I worked with was the ones prepping for the AT. Only time I got involved with another den Patrol was to pull a Scout out who needed to be doing the shakedown since he is doing the prep trip. One of the ASM's thought that since I worked with my son packing, he's good to go. Yes, but I want him treated like everyone else. If the group is shaking down gear, he needs to shake down gear.

I'm going to concede on the back history. You're right, it's not something I need to know about.

And since oldest would want to transfer instead of starting from scratch, I'm going to hold off talking to the UC about if his church could support a troop again.

Regarding the SM, it's a delicate situation. He's been involved with the troop over 40 years, has been SM for over 20, with a break when the troop died, and singlehandedly restarted the troop. Nobody has the heart to tell him "NO MORE" including his wife, doctor etc.

As for the area I was thinking of, there is currently no troops there or the surrounding area. Hence one of the reasons I was thinking about going there. I just don't know if there would be support for a single troop.

As for working him out, that may happen. He's already involved on the district level, so that won't work. I really do not want the last option because I do not want to lose those Scouts. I think they would quit before asking to join a different patrol, especially since the adults were the ones that set up the patrols.

At the moment Son wants to change the troop. I do what he wants. He want the PLC more involved, and he will be working towards that end this weekend camping with the SPL, a PL, and the "influential Scouts" as he calls them.

My UC was the one I recruited to be CM, then the SM, of the pack and troop Gunship was in before coming to my troop. Also he is one of the lay leaders of the chartering organization, and was serving on the committee when the troop folded. I know he wasn't as active a leader as he would have liked, but his company has exploded especially with their overseas customers. But he would know if the reason was Gunship or really they couldn't get parents to step up to the plate.  Also he would know if the church would be willing to restart the troop if a new sucker, I mean volunteer, was willing to restart the troop. As well as what equipment and resources the CO still has.

On a different note, talked to son some more. He really wants to try and solve this troops problems before giving up. Told him I'd do whatever it takes to help him out, and put up with anything as long as he's happy. Then the bombshell. He said he wouldn't' want to start a new troop, but go to another troop that friends from the home school group are in. I told him he would need to pay more of his share, because we couldn't afford it. Good news is that the troop IS Scout run. Bad news is that they do a lot of expensive trips.

I'm in the process of coming up with a game plan. Some of this is coming from the son. Some is what I was thinking about doing, and some from folks on this board.

1. Talk to the Older Scouts next weekend. The backpacking trip will consist of an ASM, let's call him Frustrated, and myself as well as his wife and my pack's CC whose son is going backpacking. Level Headed will be dropping his Scout off, so the Older Scouts may talk, especially since Gunship won't be around. EDITED: Frustrated and Level Headed are the #2 and #1 Leaders the Older Scouts will go to, even before me. I "talk too much"

1.A. Talk to the UC about why Gunship's pack and troop at his church folded. Aiming for Friday IF he's in the country or not.

2. Since plans have to be revised for June, there is a triathlon where we are scheduled to go, come up with a survey of what the Scouts like, don't like, and want to do to improve the troop.

3. PLC and comes up with game plan using the surveys.

4. Ride herd on adults and see if Gunship actually leaves or not.

5. If things continue going down the sewer, talk to SM, CC, IH and see if they can get aboard the plan.

6. If they can get aboard the plan, go Patrol Method. If not, leave

7. Talk to my old den about starting up a new troop with the disgruntled Scouts from current troop.

8. Inventory and fund-raise as needed to get new troop gear

9. USE THE PATROL METHOD!

    Gunship and his partners may understand the error of their ways when the new troop runs the BSA program and grows, but probably not.

 

This quote is hitting home. I don't know what happened, but something occurred between the packs leadership and the troop's leadership when Gunship was a young ASM. Gunship blames the pack's CO to this day on the death of his troop. The Webelos were not even visiting the CO's troop, visiting another troop instead. In fact, he still has some feelings against the other troop, although no one remains from the time period.

But I know for a fact that a troop using the patrol method without a feeder pack can survive on it's own. My troop didn't have a feeder pack before I joined it, nor for 6 of the 7 years I was a youth. So What was the real reason the troop folded?

@Qwasze,

Yes, I think it's an idle threat and/or a way to get some sympathy from the new leaders who just crossed over from Cub Scouts in the last 6-12 months. I've been busting my butt mentoring one, but now he's teamed up with Gunship, and I've heard some comments from him agreeing with Gunship. Patrol Method is "organized chaos" but it works. Best example of that is the Older Scouts in the troop.

@@desertrat77,

Don't know if I'm Eeyore or Cassandra. However I feel like Yoda in Episode V when Luke goes off to Bespin. I don't think I'm being listened to, and the hand that Luke was dealt came off badly (pun intended)

@@Beavah,

That is my worst fear: destroying the troop. Up until recently the troop was good. Yes they had some problems, but it was getting worked on. It is a slow process changing a troop's culture by doing it right, via the PLC. I've had some handicaps regarding the troop, specifically working with Cub and then when I stepped back from Cubs the accident, plus not being a member of the CO, but it was starting to change. Then Gunship's troop folded, and his Scout joined us. That is when the negative changes started. And it has gotten worse over time, culminating with the last two weeks.

All,

If I was to "start" a troop, it would really be RESTARTING one. Gunship's troop and pack both folded because he could not get enough leaders in their area to get involved. Again I have contacts with the CO and could probably get them to support restarting the troop. But I know I would tear the current troop apart, and there will be animosity for years to come from Gunship and a few other leaders, especially if I get the pack restarted.

Now part of the problem as to why the pack and troop folded,  I blame on council. In the push to increase units, they pushed for a new pack and troop to be started in an area that Gunship's pack and troop was recruiting from. Having a small pack, plus a newer, small pack recruiting from the same area is bad news. And eventually both packs and troops folded within 5 years of the second pack being started.

But one thing has been on the back of my mind. The troop I'm currently in folded while Gunship was an ASM. He got deployed overseas, and the troop got restarted.

Gunship took over as CM of a pack his youngest was in, and served as an ASM for the troop his step-son was in, both with the same CO. Both pack and troop could not get enough leaders to keep  them going. My question is WHY?

The CC/COR didn't want Gunship involved with the troop as a leader. There is a history between the two, and all of the ASMs ( including me) thought it was because of the history, and wanted Gunship involved. IH actually approved the application, and sent it forward.

The common denominator is Gunship.

Then the second-hand comment I was told by the Webelos DL, " You don't want to be in a troop with [Gunship] as a leader" is making me wonder.

Had another chat with Oldest. He doesn't want to give up on the troop yet. He wants to try and change things via the older Scouts and the PLC first. BUT he is now agreeable to starting a new troop if needbe b/c I told him  that in all likelihood his 2 best friends, the rest of his old CS den, and probably a few others would follow suit.

And I need to change Naysayer's handle to something different, more inline with his personality. He's not a helicopter parent, who doesn't get involved except to hover, he gets involved, and involved heavily. He's more of an AC-130 Gunship, always aloft and ready to rain down fury when he thinks he sees the need. So let's refer to him as Gunship.

@@Krampus,

So true. I'd actually take you up on the TX offer if it wasn't for the mother-in-law. We as a family are thoroughly enjoying the normalcy while we can. But a relapse is on the back of our minds all the time.

Back.

Anyway, Level Headed and I have some concerns. At the moment, neither one of our sons want to leave the troop due to the Scouts in the troop. But with the lack of patience, the way he took over a patrol's planning process, was influential in reassigning the patrols, and commenting on how only half the troop will be able to go canoeing, I see the troop falling apart and fast.

I know my son has commented on how the best scouts are all in one patrol. He doesn't like that the Scouts had no input into patrol selection. At least with the original plan for the troop reorg, the PLC decided to pull names out of cup at random.

I was told that while I was working with the AT Scouts, only 5 scouts from the other 2 patrols said they were going on the planned camp out with the troop.

I know the comment about 1/2 the troop going on the canoe trip in August worries me. When I mentioned what about the rest of the troop, I was told they could either meet them on the river, or do something else.

And i know that one of the dads has some concerns because we are not using the patrol method. His son is one of the plankowners in the troop. He was losing interest until he started teaching Scouts. Now it looks as if the Scout is losing interest. i know part of it is no Philmont trip. But part of it is the adults taking over.

Now Naysayer ASM did make a comment about leaving after the AT trip because he's had enough. Don't know if that was an idle threat or not. I personally don't think he will follow through. He's had a long history with the troop before it folded.

I had an interesting 2.5 hour phone conversation with the Level Headed ASM, and the situation IMHO is worse than I thought.

The ASM I've had issues with above is not happy with me not only because of my views on how the troop should be run (boy led) and advancement should be done ( select youth (PLC members and a few others) able to sign off on advancement are opposite his,  but also how I discussed the performance of on of his former Cubs as PL of the NSP, and how he really needs to step and be a leader, even if he no longer wears the PL patch.NSP  PL would not listen to TG, and actually was one of the trouble makers. I sat on his BOR ( which I didn't want to do) and asked some very pointed questions about how he did as PL. ASM didn't like that because Tenderfoot doesn't require POR.

Anyway I found out that as the ASMs were picking patrols and assigning ASMs to work with each patrol, ASM above made the  comment "I CANNOT WORK WITH [EAGLE94-A1]!" Hence I'm the floater.

Level Headed ASM also commented how the SM is starting to lean more towards the Naysayer ASM (Sorry @@Beavah, but that or negative is the only way I can ID him now), which has the Level-Headed ASM seriously concerned. Not only is his son in the patrol that Naysayer is in the ASM for, but he sees the potential for the troop to split apart over the naysayer ASM. One ASM, the one I'm backpacking with next week, already pulled his son out of a camping trip when the naysayer ASM did the menues, duty roster, and shopping list for the patrol and told them that since the patrol was having so much trouble doing cooking and KP,. he woudl wake them up at 5AM so they would finish everything on time.

I think I already mentioned that Naysayer ASM told his son, who was suppose to do KP, that he had to pack and take down his tent as soon as he finished breakfast? But I didn't tell you that the Scout said he couldn''t do cooking or KP Sunday morning because dad said they would interfere with his quartermaster duties.

More later

Interesting conversation tonite at roundtable. Long story short, the Webelos Den leader of the pack that my troop charters tell me that we should get all 12 of his Scouts. He still plans on visiting troops to make sure his scouts find troops that meet their needs though. HOWEVER, he also told me that one of the Bear dads knows the ASM above, growing up in the troop with him back in the day. He's commented that if the ASM is invovled with the troop, he will not send his son to the troop.

This is going to get interesting.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, WDL was telling me how his older son is having a better time in the troop now, mostly because we were letting Scouts teach for a while.  I told the WDL that my son joined the troop because of him. My son has that scout on a pedestal because of his work at CSDC when my son was a Webelos, and because he ran the meeting my son visited, being given about 2 minutes notice he was in charge.

Back on topic, I think I am going to use the lock in and backpacking trip next weekend to talk to the SPL and older Scouts to see what they want.

_{I read on another forum that the BSA is considering the necker as required uniform. I understand it is an attempt to be more inline with scouting programs in other nations. I don't know anything else.}

 

_Barry

Unless national plans on making them, I don't see this happening. And last I heard, they are not making neckerchiefs anymore, only getting rid of the ones in stock. And none of my troops old neckers are in stock anymore.  That's why they did the custom route.

Make sure to bring the coffee pot and cards.

I'm back.

The option I suggested to him is that he runs again for SPL, and if elected do things the way they are suppose to be done. Grant you it's six months away from the next election, they just did them Monday, but  I am putting the bug in his ear.

@@Beavah

Yes, I helped trained him. I trust him, and I'm willing to let him lead the way. I go where he goes. But with some of the adults now in the troop, I need to quote one of the internet memes I've seen, that actually features one of my Eagles. "We got your six covered."  Yep that meme with the 6'11" Marine LT carrying a guy in the backpack, both armed with M-4s has one of my Eagles in it. They didn't call him BIGFOOT for nothing.

EDITED:  I have a bad feeling that one of the adults would sabotage things if my son, or any Scout for that matter, would try to change things that he disagreed with. The troop decided to make custom neckers using triangular bandages, custom patches, and his embroidery machine. To make it easier, the embroiery was just going to put an edge on it and sew the patches on.. Long story short the ASM really doesn't see the need for neckerchiefs, and doesn't like to wear them. The goal was to get enough neckers for the youth for the court of honor. Didn't happen, Next we were going to try and get them for the camporee, 2 weeks after the court of honor.  It didn't happen. And yes, this is the ASM who is being a challenge.

@@Beavah,

I'm ID'ing the one I'm having trouble with as "naysayer" because someone else labeled him that, and it provides continuity. Trust me I've tried to work with him. Heck I even sees where he is coming from regarding the problem, and I had an idea that incorporated some of the things he wants, i.e. skills review and retesting,  with things I see would improve  the troop by being youth led , i.e. building patrol spirit and allowing those Scouts with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to take ownership on advancement. Specifically having a month of intra-patrol competitions, say Scout Olympics, so that the meetings are fun, build patrol spirit ( which was severely lacking prior to the reorg, but now even more so), and REVIEWS SKILLS ( emphsis not shouting)

ASM in question, when I tried to talk to him about the idea says, :" No, I don't want to hear it. I'm done...." and walks off.

Regarding the SM, I know his health is bad, and he has been relying on the ASMs for vision, specificllay 1 whose job is challegneing.  It now seems as if the ASM above, who is one of his former Scouts, is now the major influence and providing the vision, especially since I haven't been at the last two leaders meeting because one was doen while I was doing BORs, the other was spur of the moment.

 I had a nice long chat with the son while we walked the neighborhood with packs on. STARTING A NEW TROOP IS NOT AN OPTION AT THIS TIME! ( caps are emphasis, not shouting). He has friends in the troop, and wants to stay with them. I told him that if a new troop was to start, I think 2 of his close friends who are already sitting on the fence would jump at the opportunity. Plus some of his old den mates would follow him.  He doesn't want to do that to his current troop and wants to try and change the troop from the inside.

His ideas on changing the troop range from moderate to extreme. I admit,I gave him a 3rd option he is not too thrilled about, but realized it needs to be an option.

Moderate is  getting a major thorns a roses letter out asking for what the scouts what they like about the troop, what they do not like about the troop, and ideas to fix the troop. Then take those ideas to improve the troop and come up with a plan.

Extreme is ignoring any adult mandates and doing their own thing, and having a rebellion. When he made that comment, he then sang a a quote from a song he learned in history class about the French Revolution.

More later

Gut feeling, we are 7, possibly lowest of the low on 6. Funny thing is this. A month after crossing over to the troop as a MC, I was asked to conduct first aid training since I'm a MBC and teach  first aid and CPR at work. With the exception of CPR and AED usage, my boss told me to run those since the trainers are expensive, and brand new when I did this, I let the Scouts teach the skills.

I talked to the Scouts about what I expected of them. Then I used their rank as an indication of what they already knew and told them to teach a specific set of skills. So we had some folks who were Second and First Class teaching T-2-1 skills. Overall the kids did a great job. That instance I think the troop was at a 5/4 level, and it was good.

Since moving back to this area, I've not been involved in the community outside of Scouting. Mother-in-law's health issues have basically caused my family life to revolve around her. It's only been the last 24 months that things have changed. Heck I wouldn't even consider taking on a primary ASM spot, let alone SM, with her health issues.  With the exception of restarting the troop that folded, I wouldn't even know who to make the first phone call and set up a meeting.

Thinking about it, there is another possible location. We had a pack just start, but it quickly shut down.

Sorry, for whatever reason I thought it was joining and starting.  The only organization I would feel comfortable cold calling about starting a new troop would be my church, adn there would be some obstacles, one minor, the other major.

Minor obstacle is facilities. The church is doing a heck of  a lot of ministry work, especially with the migrant worker community, that the facilties are in use all the time. In fact they just expanded by buying a 2 story house across the street and they are still running out of room.

The major obstacle is societal in my neck of the woods: anti-Catholic bias. Long story short, when I was a DE, I had a new pack looking to find a CO. When I told the folks about the Catholic Church, I was cursed out by the prospective CM, lost 75% of the Cubs, and all of the leaders save 1.Pack folded in a year.

Now there is a place I have been thinking about since rereading the question that had a pack and troop that folded. I know the CO still has the bulk of the gear, it's in use by the Girl Scouts, I have a history with the CO since I was the DE that started the pack and troop, and some of the lay leaders of the church wer efolks I recruited as Scout leaders when their kids were in the program.

It's the same CO that the naysayer was CM and an ASM at last year.