Eagle94-A1

YOUR SON (emphasis) has to do what he has to do. You just need to let him make the decision since it is his scouting career.

A little background, my son visited a troop very familiar to yours. He wasn't too thrilled and looked around. Troop he wanted to join went Trails Life, so we are on choice #2. Things started out OK if challenging, troop was restarting and not enough adult support. In 2 years, troop has tripled in size, but with the tripleing came issues, specifically the new NSP came from 3 different packs and 5 different dens. And they were at various levels of preparedness for Scouting. Now we have some leader issues, and 2 of the 3 "challenging Scouts" come from the leader's old pack.

Yah, hmmm...

 

This seems to be gettin' more frequent as da BSA shrinks and da pros get squeezed.  We've had some bad cases of SEs removing volunteers who were whistleblowers on da SE's fraud and mismanagement.   Da SE is supposed to conduct an investigation before takin' any action.

Seen the retaliation against whistleblowers up close: one long term scouter and one professional. Long term Scouter had his membership permanently revoked, do not know all the details on that but have ideas. Professional caught fraud issues and was "rewarded" with a promotion to a SE position for a council that was smaller than the service area one of the FDs he supervised had. Yep, went from a DFS of a metro council to SE of one of the smallest councils in the nation.

Sorry I'm late to the party. As some know I'm dealing with similar issues, but with adults. However I came over here because of a conversation I had with son this weekend, and the way one Scout is acting in his patrol. @@Beavah made the comment "you can't save the child from his parents," and from what son is telling me, This Scout is starting to mirror his dad in attitude and in doing things. Hoping to get some ideas.

My thoughts.

1. Each situation is different as each Scout is different. There really is no one size fits all.

2. From my experiences growing up, and my conversations with my troop's current venture patrol of older Scouts ( FYI yep I'm calling them a venture patrol b/c that's what they are in reality if not recognized by the adults in the troop) Scouts do not like new adults who know nothing about the troop and it's dynamics telling them what to do.  A lot of times it's the result of the new crossover parents trying to implement Cub Scouts on a Boy Scout troop. Other times the parents do not know what the heck they are doing.

3. HOWEVER, Health and safety are any adults' concern. Urination in a campsite is a health issue. And 1 program I worked for ( not Scouts) had 2 campers die for lying down in the middle of the road.

4. Leaders' kids are the hardest to deal with. Some adults put politics into play. That's the situation I'm in now. One leader's kid is the the second worst Scout in the troop, but the SM wants to keep the ASM. And ASM won't keep him from doing trips, just yells at the kid. From personal experience, sending your son home 1 time from a camp out will solve the problem. Yep, I told my 2 older kids to pack it up one time while in Cubs. Never had issues with them since.

5. The troop described by the OP sounds just like the one my pack's CO has with the exception that it's the SM's son as the #1 bully, and the OP's troop camps. The problem if not nipped in the bud now will get worse, and will affect the entire culture of the troop. When my troop attended summer camp with the troop above, there was a lot of bullying and harassment of my troop members. One Scout from that troop was best friends with one of the guys in my troop via school, Cub Scouts, and for 9 months Boy Scouts. They are in different schools now, and the Scout in my troop transferred into  my troop 6 months prior to summer camp. The bullying culture of that troop corrupted the remaining Scout, and was the biggest thorn in my Scout's side that week.

6. Good luck and follow your Son's lead.

My troop growing up essentially had the same SM for 25 years. There was a 2 year stint where he was officially an ASM because he was OA Lodge Adviser.  But the SM who took over didn't do the job and he resigned as OA LA to get the troop back on track. That was just before my time with the troop, and I found out about the situation talking to the past Lodge chief who was on camp staff with me.

As you know, we have a SM who has been it for 30+ years, and an ASM for 20+ years before that. He needs to step down, but no one has the cajones to talk him into resigning, including me. I think I got the closest: talking to him about taking over as SM for him.

I think that a lot of factors come into play when asking someone to step down: performance, health, family, ad nauseum.

I know I stepped down as a chapter adviser in order to work with my oldest son as a TCDL. 6 years later and on my 3rd Tiger den, I was burnt out and couldn't get into Cubs like I could with the older 2 sons. Especially seeing some challenges with the troop. So I stepped down as a CS DL. 

I've met some good Eagles, and I've met some "need some work" Eagles. With the "need some work" group, just because they are Eagle doesn't mean you can't mentor and work with them still. And notice I didn't say "young" or  "old."

Well we've had yet ANOTHER plumbing problem last nite. Thankfully plumber came out htis morning and fixed it. HOPEFULLY that will solve all the plumbing problems now. Looks like he's stuck with ALICE a little longer, and my dividend is going down the drain, literally.

If memory serves, the letter you received does give you instructions to appeal the decision. But that is a long tedious process

Getting back on track. I'm a REI member, and their sale start tomorrow. Since the Oldest, who is 12 and still growing like a weed I might add, I'm thinking about getting this pack for him:

https://www.rei.com/product/895597/osprey-volt-75-pack

What do you guys think? I like the weight, and really like how the torso fit goes up to 23".  And yes, he's at 17" already!

So how is anyone supposed to get through the Tenderfoot requirements without a patrol flag?  It must mean it just gets pencil whipped?  The first step in patrol method is patrol identity.  Regardless of the patrol makeup, it needs a patrol identity to even get started.

They make a "patrol flag" with the First Year Camper program, and it gets signed off at summer camp. I don't like that, but apparently the SM takes it for what it's worth. And I agree the patrol needs an Identity before getting started. Then they need to build Spirit. That is something the troop does indeed need to work on.

...and in the mean time the older boys can't have any adventures?

Yes and no. As originally set up by the PLC, the complete mixed aged patrol would be for 6 months, letting the older Scouts get everyone up to speed so that  the younger Scouts could take over when the mass migration of Cubs happens in December. However, the Older Scouts were suppose to be going to Philmont, now the AT. So the Older Scouts would be doing stuff separate from the younger guys in the form of prepping for, and doing the backpacking expedition.

Again the issue with the canoe trip is the younger Scouts compromised on when to do it so that the older Scouts could go canoeing as well. Now the adults are changing the rules, and it looks as if some fo the younger ones will not be able to do it.

An Aside on this topic. I talked to Oldest today, and telling him the current Older Scout patrol will probably be permanent. His concern was how to gt the younger ones up to speed. It FINALLY dawned on him that he and the other 3 "younger" Scouts who went with the older ones on the prep trip ARE experienced Scouts and can improve the scouts in their patrols.

We chatted about how him being a PL, former SPL, and TG, in addition to hanging with the Older Scouts would be entry to my troop's Leadership Corps back in the day. He reminded me that in my troop, he would never be SPL (we had a minimum rank requirement and PL requirement), but I reminded him he was a PL  and TG. With that conversation, and the surveys he's doing to improve the troop, the light bulb is FINALLY lighting up that  HE IS A LEADER IN THE TROOP REGARDLESS OF THE GREEN BARS OR LACK THERE OF! (Yes I'm shouting in joy because he finally gets it).

So I am slowly getting the Scots to realize they are capable of change. Now I got to get the adults on board.

Ad hoc patrols in the patrol method structure.  I would be interested in knowing more about how that builds the patrol method.  Why not just have a full-time Venture patrol as recommended by the BSA? 

Here's the funny thing.  I WANT THE OLDER SCOUT PATROL TO STAY PERMANENT NOW! (emphasis, not shouting). Again I've been thinking, talkign to the Scouts, etc.  The complete mixed aged patrol would have been the true "ad hoc" patrols since they would not be permanent, lasting only 6 months. part of that reasoning was that some of the Scouts doubted their ability to influence their peers, as well as their knowledge and skills. This past weekend was a good wake up call for 3 of them.

BUT, when I suggested that we form a permanent venture patrol comprised of those going to Philmont so that they could do their own activities to get ready, the reply was , no we are going back to the mixed aged plan come December.  I'd like to see the patrols permanent and that involves not only creating an identity, but also building Scout Spirit, and increasing the Scouts' confidence in themselves. Kinda funny and sad when some leaders have more confidence in the Scouts than they have in themselves. But I'm not goign to push the subject. Remind them what they are capable of doing, YES. Encourage them to get out of their comfort zone, YES. Force them to do things. HECK NO!

Why I'm not pushing oldest to do the AT when the trek leader, and several Scouts asked him if he wanted to tag along. Actually all 3 were asked to tag along on the AT. Son  wants more practice, and also thinks he can be more influential with change where he is at.

So?  With mixed aged patrol, what's the incentive to have to mature?  The older boys can handle it and eventually I will have to grow up, but not today.

Only because I know whatcha doing and where you are going that I am not upset that you asked this question.   We both know the older Scouts would not put up with the younger scouts' slackness, barring adult interference, and put them into their place. Plus a lot of the younger ones hero worship the older ones, thinking they walk on water. They will do what the older Scouts tell them. As for those who don't hero worship the older Scouts, again the Older Scouts would deal with them accordingly.

So why can't the older boys do both?  They should have the were-with-all to be able to plan two trips?  Why can't the younger patrol make it's own decisions and do their own adventures without having the older boys and adults messing with their patrol?  Obviously there's plenty of growth potential on the boy-led, patrol-method continuum going on here.  Hedge talked about being a younger scout and having the older patrol boys ignoring and looking down on the younger boys, but they can still call the shots?  When does the younger boy patrol get to start calling their own shots or even troop level shots?  NEVER?

Now this is why I like coming here: thinking out of the ways my troop does things, even if I should know better. To a degree I was already thinking like this. Specifically I was thinking that those who do not go on the troop canoe trip can do another, non- canoe trip that same weekend. Why not do a second canoe trip on an easier river if that is the challenge, on a different weekend?

But of course, they're just dumb little kids!   If the boys think that the older boys ignore and look down on them, what do they think about the adults who are doing that?  My Webelos II boys this past weekend built his fire all wrong too.  On Saturday morning, he got up (temp was in the low 30's and it was cold) and he had a fire going by 6:00 am and had water going for hot chocolate.  This was my ADHD boy who hadn't gotten his meds yet that morning.  I wonder what kind of adventure awaits him in a couple of weeks when he STARTS BOY SCOUTS!

With you as a leader, he will have a blast!  Middle son's den is getting to this point, they are 6 months from crossing over. While they need gentle reminders, they  are getting the job done. At Webeloree, they were the only den to build a catapult on their own. they were the only den to set up the catapult on their own. they were the only den top launch the balls on their own. They were the only ones to carry the catapulton their own. Only thing an adult did was hammer 4 of the 6 stakes, and that was because of the rocky terrain and after the Cubs were having challenges. And the Judge told the adult to help them out!

One reason why IF we go with assigned ASMs to patrols in December I will NOT let Gunship, and a few others, be the patrol counselor for the new Scouts from this den. They are already functioning as a patrol, and did a better job than the old NSP. They do not need someone who interferes with them, except for health and safety of course.

Seriously people, working with a boy-led, patrol-method program of young boys is like wiring a house with the electricity turned on.  You're scared half to death at what could happen but are totally blown away by what really happens.

HEHEHHEHEHEHHE Never heard the patrol method described as such, but you are 110% correct. One reason why I'm passionate about the patrol method, and adults getting the heck out of the way.

I wish my patrols had flags. Out of the three old patrols, only the NSP had a flag, and that was because one of the Scouts took it upon himself to make it. I have no idea what happened to the older Scout patrol's flag, if they ever had one.  My son's patrol had a pillowcase with their emblem drawn on it as a flag. But it was hastily a produced one and it was not taken care of. It got wet, put up wet, and mildewed. A PL was suppose to make a new one, but quit before he ever did.

Yes, I admit I am for mixed aged patrols. BUT that is so the older Scouts can train and work with the younger ones so they are ready for the same adventures.

I'm also for forming a venture patrol, Leadership Corps, whatever you want to call it of the older Scouts that can do their own thing occasionally.   And essentially that is what we have: an older Scout patrol, and 2 mixed aged patrols, although some of the Scouts in those patrols are still acting like new Scouts.

My issue with the decree about the canoe  is that the younger Scouts wanted this trip, and wanted it in July while the older Scouts were at Philmont. SPL and older Scout PL said no because the older scouts wanted to be able to do the trip as well. So compromise was made. Now the adults are "altering the deal. Pray [the adults] don't alter it any further."

And that is the problem too much adult involvement.

An aside. While I go to my Oldest to get ideas, he sees the problem and wants it fixed, I didn't realize that Middle Son is observing and listening to our conversations, and is putting two and two together. Oldest did a survey, but forgot to include himself, and is doing a form. Middle son sees the survey and comments, "Don't let my friends see you rank the troop as a 3 (out of 10). I want them to join the troop with me." I then had a conversation with him, and he point blank told me who the problem was. I asked why, and he said that on the second camp out with the troop, Gunship told the NSP they were building the fire wrong, took over, but then could not get it to light. Yet the NSP had a fire started.

Back.

I know that. You know that. But for whatever reason some of the other leaders don't know that. That's why I don't like making an announcement that only 1/2 the troop will be able to go. High adventure is one thing, but a monthly camp out needs to be able to include everyone. And if  the section of river is too challenging for the bulk of the troop, you get teh PLC to select another section, or even river.

Yep, You mix and match your strongest and weakest paddlers so that you get a nice mix, and if anything does  happen, the skill level is equitable in all the canoes, so you don

t have to worry. When we were doing canoe training for the  Canada trip, my partner was a friend from my troop. We paddled a lot together, so we aced every scenario and race they gave us to the point of handicapping us.  But when it came time for assignments on the trek, we were split up and assigned to work with  less experienced Scouts. That way we could work with them and help them better themselves.

I don't know who first said it as I was not at the leader's meeting when it was discussed, but first person I heard that from was Gunship.

Being an aquarat who has done 3 fifty milers afloat, I agree, canoeing is FUN. And yes, pairings is important. Know that first hand when my inexpereinced partner froze.

more later

Agree, but I do want them prepared for backpacking before they go. I don't want them showing up with little to no instruction.I want the first time to be fun so as not to discourage them. But I also want them to learn. The backpacking group above, as well as several ASMs want the troop to do more backpacking and "primitive" camping instead of the car camping we have been doing. But two of the Scouts have already commented how they don't want to do backpacking; they want to keep doing "easy camp outs."

As for canoe camping, I do not know what happened last year as I was not on the trip. From the stories I heard, some of the Scouts could not steer their canoes, and it took twice as long to do the trip. Again, it was decreed that only 1/2 the troop will be able to go, those who can demonstrate proper canoeing skills.

My son could care less about canoeing, so I'm thinking about putting a bug in his and SPL's ear about a non-canoeing trip for those who can't go.

The canoeing problem reared it's head at the meeting. It caused me to ask the SPL if he got the SPL binder with the monthly themes, calendar, etc. He didn't. He also asked me to help him out, which I'm goingto try and do. I mentioned the situation in a message to the ASM and SM last nite. Reason being, I wanted to send him a copy of the Troop Program Features for him to review, and give him ideas to plan his meetings.

Regarding the SPL. First time SPL, has little to no confidence in his abilties. BUT HE IS FREAKING AWESOME! (emphasis, ok a little shouting 'cause he's that good.) He was the "caboose" on the backpackign trip Scout wise making sure me and 2 other adults were OK. He was the one helping folks across stream crossings and carrying gear across to help those who wanted to use "stepping stones." A little nudging at times was needed to get him to take charge. But taking care of his people, he's got.  I've also put some bugs in his ears about November and changes in camporee.

At the moment, there is no scout leading the backpack planning. Major trip is ASM Frustrated, BUT I bet I can talk him into letting the Scouts do the work. More than likely it will be the 12 year old taking charge since A) he did 40 or the proposed 50 miles already and B) He was the hike leader this past weekend.  

As for the rest of the troop and their backpacking trip, no one has been appointed. I'll put a bug in the SPL's ear abotu that though ASAP.

Set back for Boy-run. Hopefully a minor one and easily corrected. Instead of following the schedule that the Scouts created back in December,  One of the ASMs convinced the SM to jump 2 months and start working on canoeing to prepare as many Scouts for the August canoe trip as possible. So we are skipping over backpacking instruction, which everyone will be doing in July. Grant you the ones who went backpacking this weekend do not need training, heck they should be TEACHING backpacking, but the younger ones need help.

Rationale for the jump is the following: 1) we got 3 weeks where there will be no meetings ( Memorial Day, Summer Camp, and 4th of July), plus one week where the older Scouts will be on the AT leaving 7 weeks for everyone to prepare for the canoeing trip. After last year's experience on the river, the adults are saying probably 1/2 the troop will be able to go, unless they can develop their skills ASAP.

I mentioned backpacking in July, giving us 6 meetings, BUT that the PLC decided to turn a swimming day trip into a backpacking prep day trip. And that is 3 meetings away. We need to talk about gear, packing, etc. Comment was they can use the  one burner propane stoves (agree) and their school book bags for one weekend ( DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!)

I also mentioned how we really need to let the PLC decided how to handle the decision. My suggestion was do a PLC during the meeting, and have a team building/interpatrol competitions with the APLs leading while the PLs are busy.

Hate to say it, but part of me feels like pulling a Gunship, calling a PLC meeting next weekend, so the troop can get organized not only for the meetings, but also for the rest of the year. Our schedule got changes because district changed some dates on us, and we will be going 7 weeks without a campout unless we change our November trip.

EDITED: I say hopefully a minor one, because I see the rationale for the changes, and I bet the PLC will too. But A) THEY NEED TOMAKE THE DECISION AND NOT US ADULTS (emphasis), and B) I do not think anyone will want to backpack with school bags. I've been backpacking without a hip belt and a broken frame, so it was essentially a school bag. IT AINT FUN!

It is not like Boy Scout ranks where one builds on another.  In Cub Scouts all the age awards are stand alone awards and the AOL has become just another award.  It isn't even the last award.  A boy joining Cub Scouts at age nine can have his AOL award as his very first award. 

 

Not necessarily. They still need to earn their Bobcat rank. Plus requirement 1 is the following:

"Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old"

Grant you, a Cub with a late birthday, say my middle son, could skip over Webelos and start work directly on AOL so that by the end of May, he would meet the 10.5 requirement.

An aside. Glad my son decided to stick with his den and cross over in December when he is 11 instead of at 10.5. With the challenges the troop is having (see the other thread for an update), I know he would be frustrated, and working with an ASM I no longer have confidence in.

Eternal rest grant unto him, oh Lord. And may perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen.

Krampus,

I am so sorry for your loss.

Brakes? That's what the flywheel is for!

But since you were cooking them, do have your mechanic check the lines and your pads. It's worth the later to be 100% sure.

 

Just so you know, it's hardest on the fault finder in the long run. Take the criticism with a grain of salt.

Good idea about mechanic checking out the brakes. Now I gotta find a new mechanic as mine just closed his shop and retired.

Update from tonite: WOW, you just can't please some people.

Gunship was ticked off at me and the trek leader, who I named Frustrated above, because we were 1:30 late, and his stepson was too exhausted to go to school today.

We told folks we would be at the church at a certain time, give or take 30 minutes. Yes, we got a late start, but that would put us in the give 30 minutes. Putting out the fire put us beyond 20 minutes that, and as you know that group leaving the fire ticked me off.

But I had some car trouble, specifically brake issues, that also caused us to be late. I am not use to driving in the mountains, being a flatlander born and raised in SE Louisiana, and living in the coastal plain. I was burning up my brakes to the point where I was "boiling the brake fluid" and my brakes were not working as they should. Frustrated doubled back to help me out and make sure I was OK. After a 30 stop to cool the brakes, there was no further issue.

Gunship said that Frustrated should have forced the Scouts to pick up their pace to make up lost time, and he should have left me behind to deal with the car issues. so that the rest of the group could get back either on time, or closer to the original time.Apparently a heated discussion ensued where Frustrated politely, but firmly said four times he was sorry they were late, they called as soon as they could get reception about being late, but there was no way he was going to leave anyone behind.

I admit Gunship helped me out when I got injured, driving me to the hospital twice to get my injuries taken care of. But maybe it would be a good idea for him to find another troop like he said he will do after the AT trip.

Now forget about the "two steps back and let those 8 boys become a patrol of their own and set the leadership standard for the rest of the troop.  "If those guys can do it, so can we!"

5 are in the same patrol, and 2 folks from them were MIA. One was sick and ticked off, the other was being scouted for a baseball scholarship, and had to be at the game. He was not happy about missing out either. Those 7 will be doing some patrol camping in the very near future.

2 are in one patrol, and they will be working with their patrol. Funny thing is, both of them do not consider themselves "experienced" scouts, and hero worship the 5 above. Hopefully between me talking to them, and them hanging with their idols this weekend, They now understand when I tell them, "you ARE experienced scouts and know what to do. JUST DO IT."

Last one is the APL of his patrol. His PL doesn't have the necessary gear and could not make it. BUT APL has promised to help his PL out, and wants his patrol up to snuff.  Actually, I've already but a bug in the SPL's ear to assign this one in October/November to work with Webelos on their CASTAWAY BADGE and work with the Webelos on the survival campout since he is a wilderness survival freak. He did a great job working with the troop a few months back.

I think they will do VERY well.

Hmmm.  Will have to track that down.  In developing a leadership training program for our Troop's leaders, I've been reading this Working the Patrol Method and have ordered a copy of GBB's Patrol Leader's Guide.

if you find the 2 volumes I'm talking about, DO NOT LEND THEM TO ANYBODY!!!!  I made that mistake, and I haven't seen them since. And there is a really good section on starting a troop, training them using the patrol method. That section can also be used to revive the patrol method in a troop.

Wanted to give an update.

Troop camp out was cancelled because only 4 Scouts would be able to make it. They had a day trip instead, but don't know how it went yet. Find out tonite.

As for the group doing the AT and a few others. The trip was AWESOME! (and yes I'm screaming in joy   ) The 8 scouts that went did a stellar job for being first time backpackers. They really took care of not only each other, but also us old fogeys. I think they learned a lot. And I think if these guys take charge of some of the things we talked about, the troop will rock.

The only thing that ticked me off to no end was another group. They left camp with a  fire still roaring. It took us about 20 minutes and 3 trips to the stream to get enough water to put that fire out. We were running a little behind schedule, but that made it worse. BUT there was another group on the other side of firebugs. They saw us putting out the fire, doing police lines, etc. We ended up meeting them on the trail, and I received a compliment about how they really took care of the fire and campsite.  Needless to that was an emotional high for me.

Alas no, my family did not decline. Two of middle son's fellow Webelos were in the camper. They and youngest basically had a slumber party. Wife and our friends probably wished they were outside with a all the giggles and talking that occured. I'm cool with it though because all four Cubs just had a campout  2 weeks previously

Switching gears a tad. I was told the troop will revert back to NSPs in December instead of keeping mixed aged. Made a comment to the SPL that he needs to keep all of my pack's Scouts in one patrol, even if it's a 5 man patrol, and not mix others into it to keep the dynamics. The Webelos did a stellar job on that camp out, and the one the month before. They did all the cooking, cleaning, setting up, etc with just a few reminders on both camp outs. Oldest saw them in action at Webeloree in March, and told me he thinks they will have no problems when they join the troop.

I think I scared off Youngest from backpacking. Don't know what happened between when The family left for their trip, and when I met up with oldest, but he doesn't want to carry everything on his back as it's too heavy.  I think he tried oldest's pack on, and at approx. 28# it was heavy.

As for middle son, he prefers "glamping" in a camper. One of the other Scouts family did the same thing my family did, leave early and have some family time. But they used a camper. When the temps dropped to near freezing, my family was invited into the camper.

Trip went well. Scouts did a great job, and I think learned a heckuva lot of stuff. I know I relearned some things I've forgotten. Only think that irked me to no end was the neighboring group left their fire going after they left. took us about 20 minutes to put the fire out having to make sever trips to the stream to get enough water to do the job. Why can't people be careful with fire?

On a different note, the troop was complimented by another group for how well we left the campsite, as well as for putting out the fire. They were on the opposite side of the group that left the fire going, and saw us putting it out. Guys did really well

A reprint of the 5th Edition Scoutmaster Handbook.

Vol, vol 2. *spit* How about sticking it in one actual book, slap some Norman Rockwell scout art on the cover and call it a Scoutmaster's Handbook. Dog gone it.

I must respectfully disagree as I channel KUDU. Reprint the 3rd ed. SMHB volumes 1 and 2. From what I've been told and saw in a later SMHB  Green Bar Bill, all his other SMHBs are condensed versions of the 3rd. ed.