Eagle94-A1

This discussion reminds me of how one troop I encountered handled the annual planning conference and changing of PLCs. Only adult involvement was them picking up the tab.

Scottish troop did the  troop elections and annual planning during their summer camp. I want to say they spent an entire day doing this. After that, the outgoing and incoming PLCs dressed in full kit, and had a formal dinner.

Interesting. I admit I've skipped over the "how to do program planning" portion of the troop program features, and always go straight to the different plans.  The process listed in the link is very similar to the one in the Troop Program features, and to quote the Second Doctor, "You changed it. HHMMM I don't like it."

My question is this: who the heck wrote this information? was it anyoen with real experience in Scouting as a youth, or some "expert" who used research to come up with garbage?

Sorry, i'm going to stick with the way I was taught way back in the day at Troop Leader Training ( or whatever the heck it was called), and Brownsea 22, and what I taught at JLTC. Adult creep indeed!

It's cool how the patrol neckers are done, but I admit I like the idea of one color neckerchief for everyone int e troop. Part of that stems from the way my troop did things. When we were invested in the troop, we received the troop necker, totem, and woggle. If we switched patrols, we didn't need a new necker. Grant you folks rarely changed patrols. I think I changed the most out of my friends, 3 times.

Then there is another reason why I would not want to change neckers, I liked having Green Bar Bill's signature prominently displayed above the  troop patch on the necker.

With all do respect, I think Green Bar Bill's signature trumps the different patrol borders   Just wished I would have used someone else's necker for first aid purposes instead of the autographed one.  

When I was a DE, it was strongly frowned upon. In fact my boss didn't want me to have dealings with the pack my service organization started up, out side of that  of a DE.

In all honesty, He will want the away from Scouting time, and if he is married, he will want some family time as too many of my coworkers or friends either got divorced as a result of the job, or were threatened with one due to the job. My wife of 2 months, who dated me while I was a DE, gave me a choice between her or the job. Best decision I made

Just to blow your mind a little: why not?

 

Say the PL has a busted gamb and can't complete swimming reqs until a couple months. He can still observe and cheer on his mates at a properly supervised aquatics area, then put his pen to their books while they are drying off. Say he's still nervous about land navigation, but lines up a hike with a buddy who says he's ready as navigator and an instructor as backup and he tags along. After his buddy identifies the ideal logs on this side of the ravine to trim and cross to the other side, why shouldn't he sign off?

 

Make the rules simple: PL's can sign off on ST2F rank advancement, period. He doesn't have to be first to rank up to lead his boys in ranking up!

That' something from my troop growing up. Rationale behind it was the badge represents what you have mastered, so you should be able to teach it. Hence the Up to your rank. I know that back in the day, and even today when helping out, it's easier to pick who has the rank or merit badge that the skill covvers to teach it, than looking over advancement records. Although in one case, there was the Scout or Tenderfoot who was teaching intro to backpacking

"PL's can sign off on ST2F rank advancement, period."

is that written someplace?  I have been wondering what the ultimate written rule is on that topic.... not troop traditions, but the bottom line rule...

if PL signing off up to 1st class....

then who has the authority to sign off on requirements for star, life, eagle?

If I remember the G2A correctly, officially it is the decision of the SM on who gets to sign off on rank. Again my troop growing up, the SM allowed PLs and Leadership Corps members to sign off the lower ranks. Again in my troop, adults signed off on S-L-E.  Regarding the MB requirements, it was the individual MBCs who signed on the line. SM signed off on the leadership, time in grade, etc. usually done in the SMC.

Public speaking  and teaching require speech with slow, deliberate and audible characteristics.  Pauses for emphasis, gestures, etc. are all things I teach my boys.  While there is very little OA theatrics involved, the boys do quite well with the MC of a COH.  The reading parts are usually a bit up-tempo and often slurred a bit with the speed, but as the boys get older and more comfortable, that gets better.

 

I find my boys tend to "do their own thing" when it comes to COH's and other times when they need to "get up front and talk". 

 

At a COH one of the patrols (designated before the COH starts, and goes up front, welcomes everyone, etc. then distributes the awards for this patrol member.  He then hands off the duties to the next PL who does the same and hands off to the next PL.  The last PL does his thing and then thanks everyone for coming and invites them to stay for refreshments.

We did it a little differently. PLs did specific parts, i.e. Sammy Secondclass, PL of the Ravens would give out Tenderfoot, Simon Secondclass, PL of the Hawks, would give out Second Class.  Freddy Firstclass, Eagle PL, would give out  First Class. etc.

On a tangent, I am hoping, stress HOPING, one award has been approved by national and the paperwork is back. Would love to have that handed out at the COH. Don't know if the Scout who started the incident should give the award, or me, victim #2, should give it to him.

My gut tells me that your son is more like the typical scout than you might think.  Trying to remember way back, I want to say that I had a similar opinion of ceremony as a kid.  It was a silly thing then.... and honestly still is to me.

I'm talking scripted ceremonies full of fluff, candles, etc....

Just taking it seriously, gives it more importance in my thinking.  Don't throw out the patch in a baggie, but instead a simple few words, come to the front, pause for a firm handshake and perhaps a photo (not one of those shake hands and sit back down before the dust settles on your chair). Just a solemn and sincere recognition is better than some trumped up thing in my thinking.  But that's just me.... I wonder if your son would agree.

 

just a question..... but is the need for more preparation your perception as an adult, based on the way YOU & I think the meeting ought to run.... or do they see the need for it? 

My troop did ceremonies,and the had some meaning and were special. Talking to some of the guys today parts of it are still remembered, especially our Investiture ceremony. But yes, it seems as if ceremonies are not a big deal.  As for the PLCs, I'd say both. SPL realizes that he needs to do something besides texts and emails. But we only meet 2-3 times a year as a PLC, just after the election and training. That's it.

So very true. Troop that is slowly falling apart that I've mentioned in other posts had that happen. The old SM, just before stepping down, sent 2 Scouts to NYLT, to take the troop to the next level. When the new SM took over, some of the things the NLYT grads were trying to implement were overruled and ignored by the new SM.  Long story short, both NYLT grads transferred to another troop in our town that had 3 folks in NYLT that year. That troop also happens to be the best run troop in the district IMHO.

Definately ask the PL or SPL.

Up date on my troop's neckerchief. Locally we cannot get neckers anymore from national unless we special order them. So when we got a new Scout in December, the SM was able to obtain one of the smaller red neckers.

So we now have 3 differents issued by the troop in use: an  all green properly sized, green and red CS sized, and all red CS sized.

The December incident gave the troop the push it needed to make a decision on the neckerchiefs. PLC after doing some research decided to go with olive drab USGI triangle bandages with an emboridered border for contrast since one of the grandmothers has an embroidery machine at the house that she can use, as well as one of the ASMs and I want to say one of the grandsons. Instead of silkscreening, they wanted a patch instead. So we went through SageVenture http://www.sageventure.com/store/and got custom  unit number and city/state in green with a tan background ( I wanted red, but I don't have a say in it ) and we will be issuing them at the upcoming court of honor. We have a camporee where uniform inspection is part of the competition

I pecked a list a while back when I was out with the shoulder   I mentioned some of it, not all of it, at the PLC/ planning meeting back in December, but didn't do the entire list.

Part of the challenge for me is not stepping on folk's toes. Yes, I've been with the troop 2 years, but it's been as a committee member and as I could make it. Traditions, location of equipment throughout the church faciltiy, how the weekly ops of the troop, etc I'm still learning. Plus I do not want to step on anyone's toes, especially the SM's.

I've tried to talk to the SPL, and do so when I can. The problem is the NSP. Since I am the NSP ASM,  I've spent more time with them and trying to keep the other adults off their backs than I can talking to SPL.

One other item I would like to do is send a few youth to NYLT. I have not read the syllabus, let alone staffed it, but if it is even 1/2 as good as the old JLTC and BA22 courses I staffed and participated from, than it is something that these guys need. Funny thing about that is youngest son's den chief, soon to be ADL. I've worked with the DC extensively in the OA and he staffed Cub Scout day camp for me. he's a NYLT grad and was SPL last year, and is a great Scout. Anyway he visited the troop after the pack meeting, becasue he needed to give our new Scout his AOL plaque that came in for him. He noted the issues  and not only promoted NYLT but made the comment, " ... and once they come back from NYLT, the adults needs to let them follow through, otherwise it will eb a waste of everyone's time and money,"  I've seen first hand what happens when you get gung ho folks coming back from JLTC and BA22, but the adults don't want to change.

back. I mentioned

1B) And this is where I think I'm balancing on the high wire between advising and mentoring vs. adult leading. I want to incorporate a little more ceremony into inducting new members, COHs, etc. I'm use to having meaningful ceremonies for investing new Scouts with their Scout Badge/rank, and receiving their neckerchief and woggle when they join the troop and commit to staying. I'm also use to a little more ceremony at COHs than " The following Scouts earned their Second Class Badge...."  Also want the youth doing the bulk of the COH instead of the adults, if not the whole thing. ( FYI Troop growing up Scouts handled giving out ranks up to First Class. Star, Life,  MBs and some special awards were given out by the adults.)

 

Want to clarify why I feel like I'm on a balancing act. I want change, I want to make it more meaningful. I think having them do more would help improve. Build esprit de corps and develope a sense of spirit. I want to hand a bunch a scripts to the SPl and say pcik one.

But asking my son about it, i.e. improving COHs with ceremonies he tells me "advancement isn't really important, "everyone gets it, no one fails," "it's not a big deal"." and "Earning ranks is more ha.ha fun than serious.". So he doesn't think it would matter. BUT the only ceremonies he's seen are Cub Scout ones.

More ideas to improve the troop.

3) More PLCs. The PLs and other youth running the meetings need to get together more often and prepare. Very haphazard

4) This is one that I want so badly, and now that we got several First Class Scouts or higher, and are going to mixed aged patrols, I WANT THE PLs, ASPL, SPL AND SELECT SCOUTS TO SIGN OFF ON THE S-T-2-1 (up to their actual rank, i.e. a 2nd Class PL can't sign off on First Class requirement). At the moment it's only the adults who sign off.

More later

Good question.  The SM needs to be replaced due to his health. I offered, but the COR/CC stated that they really want a church member to be SM as they view Scouting as an outreach ministry. I'm good with that. My friend is suppose to be the new SM, challenge is how to go about replacing the old SM without any drama or ill will. Let's face it, HE restarted the troop, got it up and running. I've found it's very hard to let something go after putting your heart and soul, as well as your time and treasure, into it for a number of years, and he's been involved with the troop for over 40, except when it folded briefly.

My thoughts on improving, and this will be a ramble so bear with me.

1) start getting the Scouts to run the meetings more. This comes and goes. I admit under the last SPL, I organized a few meetings for him, basically when he was unavailable, and got youth to teach it. Or if not a youth, then an adult other than the SM. Were the youth instructors perfect, no, but they were better meetings because they did get the Scouts involve.d

1A) gotta emphasize more forcefully that he needs an agenda WRITTEN OUT and SHARED (emphasis) with the PLC and the SM. "if it isn't written. it won't happen"

1B) And this is where I think I'm balancing on the high wire between advising and mentoring vs. adult leading. I want to incorporate a little more ceremony into inducting new members, COHs, etc. I'm use to having meaningful ceremonies for investing new Scouts with their Scout Badge/rank, and receiving their neckerchief and woggle when they join the troop and commit to staying. I'm also use to a little more ceremony at COHs than " The following Scouts earned their Second Class Badge...."  Also want the youth doing the bulk of the COH instead of the adults, if not the whole thing. ( FYI Troop growing up Scouts handled giving out ranks up to First Class. Star, Life,  MBs and some special awards were given out by the adults.)

2) and this one comes from the oldest son, only 1 adult allowed in the room with the Scouts, and they get to pick. THAT'S GOING TO BE A FUN ONE TO IMPLEMENT!  Seriously, this is something oldest suggested to help with the adult problem. Challenge is he doesn't think it should be the current SM as he will jump in too much. In fact he doesn't suggest any of the adult leader except me. Don't know if that's b/c I'm dad or he really means it when he says "you try really hard not to jump in. Sometimes you jump in a little too early. But sometimes you jump in at the right time."

What ever the real truth is, I hope he talks to the BOR about this when it's his time.

More later.

A few comments.

1) Thanks for putting up with my venting and giving ideas. It helps a lot.

2) I believe that multiple factors have led to the problem. While some of it is Scout related, i.e. ages, maturity, accepting responsibility, etc, the bulk of it is adult driven.

A) for the longest time it was a one man show, i.e the SM doing it all.  And to keep the troop going, the SM did it all. Can't be done.

B) Some of the new leaders are seeing it done the wrong may and are thinking it's right. This is particularly the former Cub Leaders.

C) Some leaders, who should know better, instead of using the Boy Scout's Patrol Method model, instead are relying on their military training and are trying to use that instead.

D) While training has been done, other aspects have not, i.e. Monthly PLC meetings, post meeting get togethers, etc. communication is haphazard in the form of emails, texts and instant messages.

Talked to my friend who will become the next SM, hopefully soon. Lots of good ideas to improve the troop. But will the troop will be ready for the mass influx in december?  Another friend stated that even the smaller projection of 14 new Scouts can kill the troop if we are not ready for them

I am going to quote my son regarding last night's meeting, and, upon reflecting, the entire situation with the troop: "The adults are the problem, Dad."

Long story short, what should have taken about 10 minutes, took 45 because adults kept interfering. The parents/adult leaders didn't trust their sons to be able to pay the camp fee to their PLs. Very frustrating. I had to tell the 2 parents to let the Scouts to handle it, and one was adamant that only he could handle it because "it's special situation."  Yes, the PL was out sick and his mom gave the money to the dad. The son could have handled it.

And we have a situation as a result of adult interference. Same "it's a special situation" dad above convinced his son that he and another Scout they were not ready for BORs a month ago, they needed to work on a few things. Long story short, the kids are ready now, but we may not be able to get a BOR in time for them to be recognized at the Court of Honor in two weeks since the next time the committee can not meet next week.

Then the adults ate up time trying to solve a "perceived" problem. Again money was being collected, and instead of an orderly way of collecting it and  parents got involved, and scouts were throwing money to the PLs.  NSP had issues keeping track of who paid what as a result. Took a total of 45 minutes, and the TG having the patrol leave the room with the adults in it to solve the matter. Ok I admit when I went to see how they were doing, and saw the handbook being thrown out of the room and folks not listening to the APL and TG and seeing the "I need help look in son's eye." I intervened. 

Now they were not the only patrol that had issues, another one had similar issues, just not the adults interfering. SPL was frustrated, so I asked if I could take a minute or two when the troop got back together after game time. I asked why did it take so long to figure out who paid. I got the answers of people not knowing how much to pay, and people throwing money. I asked for ways to communicate better, got facebook and texting, but I mention how the PLs need to call their patrol members, as not everyone has textable phones, nor is on facebook. Also stated how calls give you confirmation they got the info. Then I asked about handling money. While they did not mention adult interference, they did mention a solution the throwing money problem.

I was over and done with in about 2, maybe three minutes. Then one of the leaders out of nowhere came up with menus and duty rosters, issues that have been problems previously, but was settled over the weekend. At that point it was a non issue, but apparently he thought that was what took so long, and not the money.

Oldest talked to me on the ride home, thanked me for getting adults out of the way as best I could, and said, "The adults are the problem, Dad." 

_{Best thing I did as a Scout Show was a Boatswain's Chair. Two pioneering towers, one 25'-30' high,  a second  at 15' to 20' high and about 50' to 100' away. String up steel rope between the two, and attach a Boatswain's chair to the steel rope, and Bob's your uncle you got a ride that anyone wants to go on. Unfortunately BSA has effectively banned them since you need a NCS C.O.P.E. director to inspect it, a safety line above the rope, harnesses and brain buckets on participants, etc.}

_{Saw the pioneering ferris wheel and would love to make one of those.}

_{Low monkey bridges are doable.}

_{catapults are doable.}

_{Patch TRADING and not DISPLAYING ( emphasis) is doable. We did the displaying, ok one of the adults did the diplaying   and it was OK.  We were ticked off because it was the first year we could not do the Boatswain's Chair, and only did the show because Green Bar Bill was going to be there. Eventually it turned into patch trading, and those into that had fun.}

A good leader does need to have some management skills in order to get things done. Part of that is using your resources, i.e. those Scouts in our case who are better at planning to do so. You can have a great leader, but if he is unorganized, waits to the last minute, has poor time mangement skills, etc, eventually frustration will ensue with the group.

And a good manager knows they have to take care of his team in order to get the job done.  If your team isn't happy, then the job will not get done. As others have pointed out, folks quit if they are not happy.

I thought it was "There can be only one."

Just don't lose your head.

Hence the need for balance

Regarding Management vs Leadership, I'm going to quote Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez, "B-A-L-A-N-C-E balance."

That's an issue when scouts are TG/PLs for younger guys. One of the job responsibilities of the SM is to train youth leaders. That may be directly though coaching, it may be indirect through Troop Instructors, SPL's or NYLT. 

One of the challenges with this troop is that we are growing our own leaders.  Troop is approx. 5 years old now. Out of the initial group that restarted the troop, only 1 scout remains, the IH's son. The rest have quit, transferred, or moved.

IMHO, This is why one is to teach leadership instead of management.  Pure and simple.  Teaching the boys that bossing people around is not taking care of them and sooner or later that whole process is going to come back and make life miserable.  Obviously one can see this happening in this situation. 

 

If this is the "leadership" that's being taught in the troop, the problems one is identifying simply aren't going to go away anytime soon regardless of how mix and match the adults and/or boys scramble the patrol memberships.

 

The really sad part of this whole process is that the BOYS are blamed for poor adult leadership instruction.  All these discipline problems, these attendance problems, these whatever problems are most often the result of poor adult leadership.  The adults aren't taking care of their boys nor are they teaching the boys to take care of other people at all times, instead they are teaching them only to take care of jobs and solve the problems that they have created for themselves because of poor leadership training.

Mea Culpa on this one. Not so much the bossing around, but teaching the "management" instead of true, servant leadership.  Although I've been doing my best to model servant leadership. And yes, ILST is mostly management and not leadership.

Good news on that front is that the issues with ILST,  has been recognized, and a plan is being developed to improve youth training. One of our committee members is a retired Army SNCO, who has experience training NCOs in leadership. Once he's finished with the SM Specific course he will be doing next week, he will take some time off of district training duties, and come up with a way to combine the ILST syllabus with the servant leadership info he used at the NCO academy. He did something like this  previously in addition to the ILST stuff we did.

I'm hoping it works. Regarding a venture patrol, the hope, and I stress HOPE, is that by mixing them up into traditional or regular patrols now, we can get everyone up to speed so that when the 14-23 new Scouts come aboard in December, it will not overwhelm us. The goal is that the older guys can train the younger guys up so that the younger guys can take on the New Scouts, and the Older Scouts can form a venture patrol.

Regarding our NSP, by the 1 year definition, they should be a regular patrol. With the exception on 2 who came aboard in June and 1 who came in December, everyone else has been in Boy Scouts for 12-15 months. They should have "gelled" by now, but for whatever reason, and I do think I know why now, they have not.

As to why they have not "gelled,"  I think the first TG and later PL, they had was the reason. Found out that the reason why they didn't have the arguing and bickering like they do now is that he used a very dictatorial approach. Instead of working their way through things, he told them exactly what to do and how to do it. It was his way or the highway so to speak. Which thinking about it, a lot of the challenges we had before the last patrol elections with the NSP was when the TG/PL  was not camping with them. The adults heard some of this, but not everything hence why it's taken a while to realize this. Then when the new TG was assigned, because he is trying to get them to do things on their own and be independent, it is chaos and anarchy. They have been in Scouts 6-12 months, but have never really been independent. Instead of adults telling them what to do and how to do it, it was the TG/PL.

Got me.

Saw a preview, looks good.

Interesting patrol meeting. Long story short, some of the patrol members in attendance (5 out of 8 showed up) are not happy about the split up. I jumped inon this to help explain how the decision came about and asked who made the decision. Here's the scary thing, one Scout said "the adults" and he was at the PLC meeting. (Mea Cupla, I guess I should have called it PLC+ meeting since ALL ( emphasis) officers were invited to attend and vote. Again, mea culpa).

I then gave the guys the full in the patrol the full details, i.e. concern about the patrol gelling (which they admit has not happened) how it's difficult for one person to reach everyone, and how we have the potential to get 2-4 new scout patrols come December, and how that will pose challenges. I also mentioned how we talked to the older scout patrol for their ideas to solve the problem, but eventually all came back to mixed aged patrols.

Good news is that it "clicked," especially since I told them they will be working with the new Scouts come December.

@@Krampus,

I hear ya about the leaders needing to keep up to date on stuff. And I wholeheartedly agree that BSA needs to make a cliff notes version of changes. IMHO the BSA is changing stuff TOO rapidly. Anyone remember the change in health forms issue? national came out with 2 different versions of the health form within an 18 month period.

An aside. Unfortunately the troop I'm in has just restarted andwe do not have anyone close to Eagle Projects yet. Highest ranking Scout is Star.

Sorry to see you leave.  Will  be missed.

@@Krampus,

Gotta remember that once upon a time, the Eagle project was NOT (emphasis) a unit activity, but rather the Life Scout's activity. Troop could provide manpower and tools, but the Life Scout was in charge. Heck, adults were not even needed to be there. For my project, only my Mom was there, and she was not registered. All she did was drive me to the location and wait.

The idea that a service project is a UNIT  activity as opposed to an INDIVIDUAL ( again emphasis) activity is a very recent change. Kinda hard to remember the change when you have been doing something one way for 40+ years. Heck, Venturing and Venturers are still having issues being called 'Venture Scouts" and "Venture Crews," and the venture crew/patrol concept was only around approx. 9 years, and was not a major part of Scouting during that time period!

I've not waded into this discussion because of mixed feelings on it. But my $.02 worth.

Growing up, my troop was a "full uniform" troop. We didn't expect folks to cough up the money right away, be we did expect the uniform. We did allow some non-BSA items in lieu of official stuff.  Some examples of that would be dark socks instead of official socks IF worn with long pants, and the local surplus store had pants in the exact same shade of green except without the cargo pockets. In fact, if you looked at Gen II ODL pants and the surplus pants, only the BSA snaps are different.

When we showed up for a BOR, you were expected to be in full uniform. Sometimes folks would borrow items from patrol members to go to their BOR.

Why we did this? For us it wearing the uniform WAS showing Scout Spirit. It was a way of saying, "Hey we are Scouts!" and after we became a twin city and had an exchange program between us and the Canadian Scouts, it was 'Hey we are Scouts and part of a "World Wide Program!" The uniform also told folks a little about ourselves and our Scouting adventures, especially the troop totem we wore.

It seems as if Scouting doesn't get the same importance as it once had. Sports seems to have taken over. Sure we had athletes it in the troop growing up, but even when they came to meetings straight from practice or games, they had the uniform in hand to change. You try telling that to an athlete nowadays. The ones in my troop seem to not care. I earned my uniform, saving money and getting uniform items as birthday and Christmas gifts. And I bought or received second hand stuff.  Nowadays all you hear about is parents complaining about the cost of the uniform they are buying for their Scout. Don't try to talk them into  buying second hand stuff, let alone having the Scout earn his uniform. Heck, is that even mentioned in the new BSHBs?