Eagle94-A1
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Posts posted by Eagle94-A1
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The leaders say they believe in the patrol method. But they also say the Scouts are not ready yet to take charge. CO also wants one of their members as SM. Current SM's health is poor, and he really needs to step down. Only 1 other leader is a member, and I am hoping he gets appointed in the near future. I helped train him, and he was in a youth led unit growing up.
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Yeh do leader training with 'em. Preferably in da outdoors.
That's the time for the adults to help 'em set up systems and learn how to handle various types of challenges. It's also a good time for the adults to get comfortable with their capabilities. By doin' leader training the PLs and older boys get to learn and figure things out and work out teamwork on da PLC in a practice environment where they've got time to debrief and they're not embarrassed in front of da whole troop.
Generally speakin', I think a Patrol-Method, youth-led troop needs a lot more time spent on Patrol Leader / Youth Leader training than what da modern BSA materials call for.
Agree with you regarding training and especially with ILS-T. Troop did it in January 2015 and all SPLs since were in attendance at it. It does not really prepare them for the office. I've asked someone with an extensive training background to add to the ILS-T format from the leadership courses he took and taught. But maybe the old Troop Leader Training should be considered. I know there is talk of sending folks to NYLT in 2017 since 2016 is full.
I think the frustration with some of the adults is the lack of patience. At times I believe that the adults want adult level results from the Scouts, and when they do not meet adult level expectation, "they are not ready" Let's face it, It takes time to grow leaders. They will screw up. That's part of the learning process. And by screwing up, I mean minor stuff like forgetting what a thwart is, or confusing starboard and port. Stuf that if they have time to prepare and do over and over, the y will be able to pull a session on little to no notice.
An aside to training, I also think the PLC needs to meet on a regular basis to plan and organize things. Also that gives the SPL time to work with the SM.
Though I think EDGE is sorta a silly thing, remember EDGE, eh? Yeh need time to Explain and Demonstrate and Guide your PLs and other youth leaders, eh? Yeh don't just start out by chainin' the adults up in a corner and lettin' the lads sink or swim. So, for example, before yeh tell the young ones to go to their PL for equipment problems, yeh better have spent some time teachin' da PLs how to do tent and stove repair, eh? Otherwise you're settin' 'em up for failure, not success.
That's the thing, the youth have been Explained and Demonstrated to, but instead of being Guided while doing, or teaching something, when they make mistakes they are told they can't do it and are not Enabled.
Best example would be a meeting that I mentioned in post #1 Our entire Venture patrol, which had been doing canoeing for multiple years and know the stuff, sat bored stiff, some sneaking onto their phones, because it was material they knew. OK may not be to the mastery of the adult who has been doing canoeing 60+ years, but they knew enough to teach the younger Scouts.
Compare that to the meeting my oldest ran, and I helped him with. He did the bulk of the work, I just answered questions he didn't know and said a few hints I've learnt over the years. Basically enough to keep the other adults out of the way.
#1 the two experienced adults regarding summer camp will only be there part of the week, and one is Gunship for 2 days.
Yah, lots of times adult schedules cause issues like this eh? I reckon your instincts are right, eh? For a troop that's new to youth leadership, yeh really want one consistent adult with a vision to be at camp for da whole week. Otherwise the boys get whiplash, eh?
Summer camp is da best time to set up the way the troop will work for da rest of the year, eh? Aren't any other times when we have the lads for such a long stretch. Yeh want to use that time well. If you're buildin' Patrol Method, yeh want to find a camp that will let yeh use Patrol Method, and not just have boys off lone-scouting Merit Badges or Troop Method dining-halling.
Beavah
Agree, I think once I leave camp, if I even make it to camp
, things will revert to adult lead and controlled. Did I mention that Da New Guy wants the Scouts to report to an adult so that an adult can go with them to the health lodge for easy to resolve matters like removing a tick?As for summer camp, I wish there was one nearby that would allow the Patrol Method. In my neck of the woods, they are like the ones you describe. I haven't been to the one we are going to since I last staffed it 17 years ago. But from the program guide and admin stuff, I have a bad feeling it's a MB factory.
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Well "Patrols" is one of the methods of Scouting that the CO agrees to implement. The challenge as I see it is that adults do not think they are ready to take charge. Question is this: HOW DO THEY GET READY TO TAKE CHARGE IF THE ADULTS DO EVERYTHING FOR THEM? (emphasis, not shouting)
I'll give you an example from the part of the meeting I was at. An adult was going over land nav, trip planning, and backpacking meal planning. That leader was short, to the point, and really asked questions about how the Scouts would do XYZ. While I think an older Scout could have done that, since the plan with that leader was to do some outdoor prep with the Venture patrol and it was raining, the Adult went to plan B for the Venture patrol, and someone thought it would be good for the entire troop to go over. I'm hoping it was the SPL, but have a feeling it was the SM. But after the adult finished, another adult, Da New Guy takes over and reviews what they just learned, going over the allotted time.
Since the ASPL will be in charge at summer camp ( SPL is doing AT instead) I asked him to review the information about summer camp. While he's going over the information, Da New Guy starts interjecting into the conversation saying the stuff like "you'll report to the adults for..." At one point talking about equipment and tents, I jumped in before he could and asked the Scouts "You do you report to if their is a problem with your tent or equipment?" When some replied "The Adults." I said "No, your patrol leader as he's in charge of you guys. He'll tell the SPL and the SPL will fix the problem."
Da New Guy has a lot to unlearn. He crossed over to Boy Scouts in December. Hopefully he can get trained since he is staying the entire week.
On a tangent.
#1 the two experienced adults regarding summer camp will only be there part of the week, and one is Gunship for 2 days. I am currently scheduled to stay 4 days, AND THAT MAY BE CHANGING (emphasis). Since my physical in early May, I've had some health issues come up. The issue is serious enough to get me an immediate doctor's appointment (as in I called the doctor's office and they said "COME IN NOW!" (EXTREMELY strong emphasis), and I now have 3 tests scheduled for next week, and a follow up appointment 2 days before I am scheduled to leave for camp, "to make sure you can really go to camp."
I really am uncomfortable with having Da New Guy there with no experience as an adult leader at summer camp ( I think he has some youth experience way back in the day), and the other full week adult with limited experience at camp (3 days last year). I am hoping and praying that i will be able to go so I can set the tone for them the first 3 days at camp that I'm there.
2) talked to the SPL and ASPL last nite, suggested they hold a PLC meeting immediately after the day trip next week, so that they can come up with a written plan for the meetings so that the adults won't be jumping in and taking over. They both agreed.
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So, I feel like a highwire act again in more ways than one. New SPL and PLC have not met yet. 2 meetings ago, it was the most boring meeting as the SM lectured on the parts of a canoe. Plus there was no game time or patrol time: Opening, 1:20 of pure lecture, and Closing. YAWN.
Several days after the meeting, I asked the SPL what his plans were and he didn't have any. I gave some suggestions on topic and presenter, but the presenter I suggested was out of town too. So Oldest gave a presentation on packing a pack for a river trip. OK it was a last minute preparation, and he did OK. There were some questions he didn't know, and I could see the SM and Gunship ready to take over. Instead, I took over. I wanted to make sure the ASPL running the show had a chance to do things other than hear a lecture and "war stories"
Because we leave in 2 weeks for summer camp and the leader for the AT trek needs some time with the AT crew, I essentially told the SPL what this upcoming meeting will be about: splitting into 2 groups to go over summer camp and the AT. I sent the ASPL the summer camp info since he will be the SPL that week as the true SPL is going on the AT.
I suggested to the SPL that he gets together with his PLC in the next two weeks and come up with plans. I also suggested that he go ahead and select his troop level officers before the SM picks them for him.
On one hand I feel like I'm telling the SPL what to do, how to do it, etc AND DO NOT LIKE IT ONE BIT (emphasis). On the other hand, I see one confused Scout who did ask for some help on the AT prep trip we did, and am trying to advise and mentor. That's one balancing act: Adult vs Youth led. The other balancing act is being an ASM supporting the SM and not stepping on his toes. I honestly do not know what is up with the SM, but I see his health slowly getting worse. As you know I talked to the CC/COR once a few months ago, and my offer to step in as SM was rebuffed. But it seems as if I don't step in and help out and try to do things as they should be done, youth led, Gunship will come in and take over. And I honestly believe that while Gunship is a good person to have in a bad situation, he did help me out when I was injured, his style is more adult oriented, and will destroy the troop.
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Here are some links to vintage knots, and ranks, in different colored backgrounds.
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Does anyone have problems with Scouts and leaders wearing vintage uniforms? I know for my wife's 1950s den mother uniform, I could not find all original patches from that era. I had to use a reproduction or two to make the uniform "authentic." And even then, I still could not find reproductions I could afford for everything. Yes, I'm using vintage 70's/80s fully embroidered red numbers instead of yellow and blue numbers of the 1950s.
So I have no problems with Ships' Stores and others who make reproductions of the pre-1970s Sea Scout white background, Sea Scout navy background, and Exploring green background. It's not economically feasible for BSA to make the Sea Scout background knots ( heck last time I ordered Sea Scout stuff from national, it had "Sea Explorer" on the label, and this was approx. 11 years after the Exploring/Venturing split).
Ditto with the green background knots. I have no problem with them. I only wish all of my knots were available with the green background since I'm not restricted to 6 like the Sea Scout uniform, and my green uniform is the one I use on the district/council level on occasion.
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Love the video. THANK YOU!
Both the pack and troop I'm with assisted the American Legion with setting up flags at the cemetery today. On Monday both units will be taking them down.
As for my hoodlums, on Monday they will be going to the Memorial Day Service.
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1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (and yes I'm yelling at ya in joy
)2) THANK YOU FOR TAKING CARE OF YOUR NEPHEW! (again yelling at you in joy! ) One of my Eagles was in a similar situation, but worse. It got so bad that while dad signed the paperwork to join the USAF at age 17, dad also kicked him out of the house because he did not want his son joining the USAF. Between when he joined and boot camp, and then the return from boot camp to when he graduated HS and went active duty, he was living at the SM's house.
3) As others have stated, Eagle is not the goal in Scouts. It is also the Scout's adventure, not yours, and he needs to develop HIS (emphasis) plan. There is a heckuva lot more to Scouting than getting Eagle. BUT YOU GOTTA BE THERE TO SUPPORT HIM, ESPECIALLY WITH HIS FAMILY SITUATION (emphasis)
4) Let me tell you the story of The Two Eagles.
There once was an Eagle who was pushed by his Eagle Dad (and Exploring Silver Award recipient) to get his Eagle before high School. This Eagle earned it at age 13, then quit Scouting. He returned to Scouting when his son was a Tiger.
Now 13 year old Eagle had a cousin. Cousin was also pushed to get eagle before High School, and was well on his way. He earned Life at 13, and was aiming to get it while 14. But something happened. First Cousin got elected into the Order of the Arrow (OA), Scouting honor society. Then he got selected by his troop to attend Brownsea 22, the National Youth Leadership Training course for advanced leadership of his day. Then Cousin went to a national Scout camporee and did a sixty-four mile canoeing expedition in Canada. Eventually 5 years had passed, and Cousin earned his Eagle 5 years after earning Life at the age of 18. 18 y.o. Eagle continued on in Scouting, becoming an assistant scoutmaster, a Sea Scout, OA lodge officer, spent 3 months working at a Scout camp in Europe, went to a world jamboree, and stayed active in Scouting in various roles until his son became a Tiger, and 18 y.o. Eagle became a Tiger Den Leader and is now watching his oldest, middle, and youngest sons grow up in Scouting.
So who do you think had more fun in Scouting: my cousin who earned Eagle at 13, or me who earned it 18?
So remember to let you nephew decide what to do, support him to the best of your abilities, and remember Eagle is not a race, or even a goal in Scouting.
Good luck.
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Not only should the Scout take the Den Chief training but the Den Leader of the Den the Scout is working with take the training also.
A Cubmaster might want to take it too.
I have seen many times where a Cubmaster asks for Den Chefs and the Den leader has no idea what a Den Chef is there for or how to use them to enhance their Den program
CANNOT AGREE WITH THIS MORE AS IT IS110% SPOT ON! (Caps for emphasis!)
In the dark ages when I was a den chief, the worse problem I had was the first DL I was with did not know what to do with me and treated me as another Cub Scout. Thankfully I was able to switch to working with another den the next school year.
My only problem I ever had with den chiefs is over enthusiasm.
Had him teach a class on introductory camping, and he brought all his backpacking toys for the class. Thankfully I had my gear as well (I asked everyone bring their stuff) and we worked together to teach the class. I showed basic from the house stuff. He showed off the toys Had another DC doing knots, and he started doing all the basic Scout knots instead of the two they needed to learn.A good den chief is worth their weight in platinum!
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I'm going from memory, so bear with me. When a CO dropped their pack like a hot potato while I was a DE, the CO gave the pack X months to get their stuff and find a new home. basically it was the end of the school year, May. That left 7 months on their charter, and they were good according to my boss.
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I admit I've used an occasional word accidentally. I vividly remember saying in a loud voice " Oh (expletive deleted)! [scout's name] is really in trouble!" when I had my accident a few months back.
One thing I tried to do to avoid using the foudl language was use another language. Yes I learned a few words in Croatian, Russian, and Finnish. Only time I ever got in trouble was with the Croatian. I banged my hand letting a professor into the Gym and said something in Croat. He looked at me, and asked "Did I just call him...." To my embarrasment, I told him I tried to use Croatian et al since most people don't know it. He had a very good laugh at my expense.
On a normal basis, no the language is unacceptable and needs to be stopped.
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I favor the group if they want to stay as a group. We had such a group...little savages they were...all 8 of them. Poorly uniformed, forgot gear on campouts, etc. But they liked to camp (however chaotically), hiked hard (if profane), were great at making fires (had to be watched) and catapults (had to be watched) and lashing (had to make sure they didn't tie up the others). But they were very competitive and would work hard at games and competitions. Five years later, even though some moved else wear we got 5 Eagles out of them.
I wish my challenging Scouts were like that. They I know how to handle. Probably because that was me and my troop growing up.
At the same time we got another patrol of 9 nice boys, all A students, beautifully uniformed. Always worked together, nice uniforms, did a lot of Merit Badges. 2 of the nine were great scouts and Eagles. 3 dropped out and 4 are on the way to Eagle but never liked to camp, had parents hovering all the time and doing end runs to the Council and generally were out for their own advancement over the Troop. But they were at 1st very easy to manage.
That's the challenge: how to get the kids to get away from always going to mom and dad. I handed out camp schedules last nite, and one of the two immediately went to his dad to give him the schedule.
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Growing up, my troop's SPL basically assigned folks to patrols. Initially it was essentially the first person to welcome them to the meeting. Over time we got a "feeder pack" and we would divide up the folks, teaming them up with an "experienced" Scout in the patrol to teach them and be with them at the meeting, and later on at the survival camp out. 9/10 the new Scout would join the patrol the did the survival camp out with. We were mixed aged patrols.
Every 6 months we would do troop and patrol elections. After the SPL's election, we all had the chance to switch patrols if we wanted to. Rarely folks switched patrols, but it did happen. Then PL elections. Once we needed a 4th patrol due to new Scouts. I was asked to be their PL, so I left. This was before NSPs became part of the BSA, we were guinea pigs and it failed miserably. We went back to mixed aged patrols. But my patrol thought I did a good enough job to reelect me PL. In all honesty it was the only time I was elected to a POR.
The exception to all this was the "cool patrol", aka the Leadership Corps. They were the older Scouts who had "been there, done that." All were First Class or higher, had served as PLs, and were essentially elected into the patrol by its members. Grant you it was an informal process, but they had to want you to join them. There were some perks, specifically doing some challenging activites whiel the troop did the scheduled stuff, but we also worked our butts off. We were the ones doing the teaching. We were the ones running the meetings, judging the interpatrol competitions, etc. The Leadership Corps was the ones serving as Instructors, Librarians, Quartermaster, etc.
My current troop had adults assign patrols. One patrol is awesome, the older Scouts in the venture patrol. The others we will see. part of me wants to go to the model above: Permanent patrols that they stay in unless they want to switch or move up to the venture patrol.
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Why did your instructors say to omit BSA's second oldest program? Sorry, but any website that omits Sea Scouts is incomplete. Sea Scouts in the USA is 104 years old this year older than the OA.
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Yes, more problems than just these two as my other thread shows. Multiple adults told them to get their act together. Heck I even commented about performances at BORs for them. But the Gunship swoops in. And they are working the system quite well as dad is a facilitator. In one case, Scout sneaks in phone and calls mom at 1AM saying how horrible summer camp is, and momma drives over and picks ups first thing. Going to get interesting this camp since we are going to be about 1:30-2:00 away one-way instead of 45 minutes.
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We lost at least half of the available boys to the husband/wife eagle mill troop in the area. Oh, by the way, I used the term "lost" not in any negative way.....
You never know. We had a Scout growing up switch troops and 2 years later came back to us.
This is one of the problems with mixing up the boys. If one has 5 boys that are causing problems, what's the sense of having one in each patrol? They were probably feeding off of each other and now they are split up to feed off the different patrols. I'm sure they wouldn't be too impressed with being split up either.
After all, I see this as a common sense issue. Why take a bad situation and spread it throughout the troop. Why not just focus it into the new patrol and work with the problem at a single source. So, one has 2 boys, very immature and need a bit more attention than the rest. One either has a choice of making two patrols deal with the problem or leave them together and work the problem from there. NSP? only with a seasoned TG. TG would need to be someone the two troublemakers view as a DC. As a matter of fact because the situation is rather unique, the NSP might need to be a bit of a Web II for a couple of months. (with the TG as DL) Maybe two TG's, one for the NSP and an "assistant" TG that works with the two immature boys directly.
I'm just thinking that if one were to just toss them into an older patrol, they wouldn't get the attention needed to break away from mom and dad and connect up with the other scouts.
Every situation is unique and sometimes it takes a bit of out-of-the-box thinking to make it work for the various boys. I see my role as SM to figure these things out and support the PL's, TG's, etc. with getting these boys up and running in Boy Scouts. These boys need to grow up just like any other boy and it appears mom and dad aren't ready for that process yet.
Challenge was that the rest of the patrol was suffering, and suffering miserably, because of these two.They would not listen to their PLs or their TGs, only to adults. Now grant you, we had one TG who became a challenge himself, and my son whose philosophy was to let them learn the hard way. But the adults, one in particular, would either come to their rescue or start yelling at his son. Funny thing is son does better when dad is not around.
Originally the plan was to place them with one or two older Scouts who would not take the garbage and could be someone more imposing. But more on that.
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Our DEs average slightly over six months as "professionals," typically were not in Scouting as youth, have a BA in liberal arts, and are about 23 years of age. So, typically, "not a clue."
Whatever their job in theory, in practice it's
fundraising,
and then getting new units
and then growing membership
For example, last rechartering round, since our district had no Commissioner, we imaging one of our two district "professionals" would help sort out the typical confusion. Nope. See above three functions in practice.
Yep that's the typical DE. And yes, if you don't make your goals, you won't last long at all. MONEY, MEMBERSHIP, MANPOWER was the mantra.
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Not saying it can't be done. I too have seen this done. What I am saying is that part of the issues with the NSP was preparedness for Scouting. The three packs had different ways of doing things, and that has affected the dynamics of the patrol.
1 pack starts the transition process in May of the 3rd grade year, essentially when pack moves up a level. They are active in the summer, and they are acting like and treated like Boy Scouts.
1 pack starts the process essentially between October and January of 4th grade.
Both of those packs generally move the Scouts up in December of 5th grade.
The pack that one leader came from, and the 2 challenging Scouts were in, I have no idea when they started the process of transitioning. Whenever it was, it was too late. That or they are so dependent on their parents, they cannot cope with being a Boy Scout. Or it may be a combination of the two.
So to go on a tangent but dealing with behavior problems, How do your Scouts deal with younger Scouts who don't want to listen to other youth, telling folks to "deal with it" when they are corrected, cry and complain when it is their turn for KP, etc? And yes I do mean cry.
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YOUR SON (emphasis) has to do what he has to do. You just need to let him make the decision since it is his scouting career.
A little background, my son visited a troop very familiar to yours. He wasn't too thrilled and looked around. Troop he wanted to join went Trails Life, so we are on choice #2. Things started out OK if challenging, troop was restarting and not enough adult support. In 2 years, troop has tripled in size, but with the tripleing came issues, specifically the new NSP came from 3 different packs and 5 different dens. And they were at various levels of preparedness for Scouting. Now we have some leader issues, and 2 of the 3 "challenging Scouts" come from the leader's old pack.
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Yah, hmmm...
This seems to be gettin' more frequent as da BSA shrinks and da pros get squeezed. We've had some bad cases of SEs removing volunteers who were whistleblowers on da SE's fraud and mismanagement. Da SE is supposed to conduct an investigation before takin' any action.
Seen the retaliation against whistleblowers up close: one long term scouter and one professional. Long term Scouter had his membership permanently revoked, do not know all the details on that but have ideas. Professional caught fraud issues and was "rewarded" with a promotion to a SE position for a council that was smaller than the service area one of the FDs he supervised had. Yep, went from a DFS of a metro council to SE of one of the smallest councils in the nation.
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Sorry I'm late to the party. As some know I'm dealing with similar issues, but with adults. However I came over here because of a conversation I had with son this weekend, and the way one Scout is acting in his patrol. @@Beavah made the comment "you can't save the child from his parents," and from what son is telling me, This Scout is starting to mirror his dad in attitude and in doing things. Hoping to get some ideas.
My thoughts.
1. Each situation is different as each Scout is different. There really is no one size fits all.
2. From my experiences growing up, and my conversations with my troop's current venture patrol of older Scouts ( FYI yep I'm calling them a venture patrol b/c that's what they are in reality if not recognized by the adults in the troop) Scouts do not like new adults who know nothing about the troop and it's dynamics telling them what to do. A lot of times it's the result of the new crossover parents trying to implement Cub Scouts on a Boy Scout troop. Other times the parents do not know what the heck they are doing.
3. HOWEVER, Health and safety are any adults' concern. Urination in a campsite is a health issue. And 1 program I worked for ( not Scouts) had 2 campers die for lying down in the middle of the road.
4. Leaders' kids are the hardest to deal with. Some adults put politics into play. That's the situation I'm in now. One leader's kid is the the second worst Scout in the troop, but the SM wants to keep the ASM. And ASM won't keep him from doing trips, just yells at the kid. From personal experience, sending your son home 1 time from a camp out will solve the problem. Yep, I told my 2 older kids to pack it up one time while in Cubs. Never had issues with them since.
5. The troop described by the OP sounds just like the one my pack's CO has with the exception that it's the SM's son as the #1 bully, and the OP's troop camps. The problem if not nipped in the bud now will get worse, and will affect the entire culture of the troop. When my troop attended summer camp with the troop above, there was a lot of bullying and harassment of my troop members. One Scout from that troop was best friends with one of the guys in my troop via school, Cub Scouts, and for 9 months Boy Scouts. They are in different schools now, and the Scout in my troop transferred into my troop 6 months prior to summer camp. The bullying culture of that troop corrupted the remaining Scout, and was the biggest thorn in my Scout's side that week.
6. Good luck and follow your Son's lead.
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My troop growing up essentially had the same SM for 25 years. There was a 2 year stint where he was officially an ASM because he was OA Lodge Adviser. But the SM who took over didn't do the job and he resigned as OA LA to get the troop back on track. That was just before my time with the troop, and I found out about the situation talking to the past Lodge chief who was on camp staff with me.
As you know, we have a SM who has been it for 30+ years, and an ASM for 20+ years before that. He needs to step down, but no one has the cajones to talk him into resigning, including me. I think I got the closest: talking to him about taking over as SM for him.
I think that a lot of factors come into play when asking someone to step down: performance, health, family, ad nauseum.
I know I stepped down as a chapter adviser in order to work with my oldest son as a TCDL. 6 years later and on my 3rd Tiger den, I was burnt out and couldn't get into Cubs like I could with the older 2 sons. Especially seeing some challenges with the troop. So I stepped down as a CS DL.
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I've met some good Eagles, and I've met some "need some work" Eagles. With the "need some work" group, just because they are Eagle doesn't mean you can't mentor and work with them still. And notice I didn't say "young" or "old."
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Well we've had yet ANOTHER plumbing problem last nite. Thankfully plumber came out htis morning and fixed it. HOPEFULLY that will solve all the plumbing problems now. Looks like he's stuck with ALICE a little longer, and my dividend is going down the drain, literally.
Balancing Act Revisited
in The Patrol Method
Posted
Yes, selecting a new SM is a trying process. Especially when the SM is a long time Scouter who has the respect of everyone, but just doesn't have the health to be as active as he wants.