Eagle94-A1

Sadly, my PLC only meets twice a year, and one of those is the annual planning conference. Current SPL tried to have them 1 per month, but encountered some challenges They did meet twice in his 6 months. Part of the issue is the Scouts. They are use to a smaller 1- 2 patrol troop. Plus they are use to adults intervening. part of it is the adults. The ones that want to attend don't have the time.

That’s the thing. Growing up my Webelos den did some of that, basically what was allowed at the time. When Webelos got to do more, my troop started doing the above. Grant you, the PLC came up with the ideas, but for a troop without a feeder pack for a long time, it was extremely successful. I guess that is another reason why I like boy-led, it not only works, but a lot of times it works better than with adults interfering.

Question for ya @WisconsinMomma, what was the Webelos program like for your 13 year old? Did the DL treat it like a continuation of Cub Scouts, or started treating it more like a Boy Scout patrol? I ask because it seems from my experience that how the DL treats the Webelos is what makes the difference. Dens that begin transitioning Webelos I see have better rates of Scouts staying in the program, adapting to Scouts better etc. I know the dens my older 2 were in did just that, and there are no problems with them. Ditto with new Scouts who were in one of my Eagle's den. Cub Scouts in a good Webelos program should not have a big transition to make their first year. I too have... SQIRRELL Seriously, I too have ADHD. Those checklists were, and continue to be a Godsend.

Regarding learning, as my grandfather onme told me, 'the day you stop learning is the day you die." i would not consider a 13 year old a new guy. most of the PLs growing up were 13-14. I was ASPL at 13. And really, Anyone First Class or higher, regardless of age, should be able to handle themsleves, and teach others. dad should not have to double check. Going off on aside, I honestly beleive the problem stems somewhat from society.Let's face it, some people consider 25 year old children. At work, I have parents contacting me not only for their high school aged children, but also college age young adults, and in one case college graduate. Parents to not let their kids take responsibility for themselves. One of teh reasons I think Boy scouts is needed now more than ever. Sadly national will approve the Eagle anyway. We had an incident 19 years ago just like it. The bulk of the MBs were earned using Mom, dad, and grandpa as MBCs. Long story short, family was pushing paper for him to earn Eagle, and when discovered at the Eagle BOR, the family petitioned an appeal, and the appeal went to national. national agreed there were irregularities, but " we cannot penalize the Scout for the mistakes of teh adults involved." or words to that effect. That district advancement committee resigned in protest.

This is the Tale of the Two Eagles. Once there were two Eagles. The First Eagle was the son of a "Double Eagle," or an Eagle Scout and Explorer Silver recipient. "Double Eagle" dad pushed and pushed and pushed his son to earn Eagle at the ripe old age of 13. Since the Silver Award was no longer around for Exploring, dad did no pushing for that. Since the First Eagle met his dad's expectations, and thought his journey was over, he quit Scouting at 13, only to rejoin many years later when his own son became a Tiger Cub. Now the First Eagle had a cousin. Both "Double Eagle" Uncle and First Eagle Cousin pushed and pushed and pushed the Scout to earn his Eagle. As a 13 year old Life Scout, he was well on his way to becoming an Eagle at 14. But the Second Eagle took some winding trails after earning Life. First he did a local high adventure program instead of the traditional MB summer camp program, and he had FUN! A few months later he took the NYLT course of its day; Brownsea 22. It was a challenging week and he had FUN. Next Second Eagle was inducted into the OA, becoming a Brotherhood Member before earning eagle. Then Second Eagle went to a National Scout Jamboree and then did a Canadian canoeing trek. It it was FUN. Finally Second Eagle realized he was 17 and some odd months, and he needed to buckle down fast if he was to become an Eagle. He finished everything but his Eagle BOR 5 days before turning 18. And Second Eagle stayed active in Scouting. He got involved in Sea Scouts, earning Ordinary, and then the OA, becoming a Vigil. Second Eagle was selected to participate in the European camp Staff program and attend a World Scout Jamboree. He stayed active in a variety or roles, and was proudest when his three sons earned their Bobcat badge wit him as their DL. Now tell me who had more fun in Scouting, my cousin the First Eagle, or me the Second Eagle? Over the years, no one has asked me how old i was when i got it, or how many palms I earned. They ask if I am an Eagle, and what my adventures have been. And I can go on and on about my 35 years in Scouting as a youth and adult.

Again, in Red

or causes $1500 to $2000 worth of damage and gets the troop banned from staying at the location ever again. Yes, that happened in my old troop back in the day.

Back. Here are some examples of what I am talking about We have a committee member who is also a Wolf Den Leader. However he was a WDL, was fully trained as such, and got that the Webelos program of Cub Scouts is meant to transition both Cubs and their parents into Boy Scouts. He camps occasionally with us, but leaves the Scouts alone until the medical issue with his son arises. Only when it is a health and safety issue, specifically the medical issue his son has, does he get involved. He doesn't pack his son's clothes, go behind him when he camps to make sure the tent is up properly, interupts the PL or other older Scout doing instruction, od cooking and/or KP for the Scout. The new ASM above has indeed gone around checking and fixing tents, jumped in and taken over cooking and KP, and taken over instruction. Trying talk to get him and get him out of the Scouts' way results in being ignored or him getting angry. He is also the one who let his son sneak into the tent or shelter on 3 different occasions, then sat outside a shelter on a fourth until his son fell asleep. He has been talked to several times by me and others, yet continues to ignore us. One Scouter overheard him say he doesn't care what we say, if the son is scare and wants to sleep in his tent, he will let him. The parent does not see any harm in what he is doing. Nor does he encourage the Scout to be on his own. When I tried to talk the son into going back into the shelter, dad sat like a bump on the log not saying anything. We have some Moms that camp with us. They do not bring siblings, unless Webelos and invited. They do not go around making sure tents/hammocks are set up properly, cooking is done properly, etc. In fact the only time two of the moms got involved were for medical reasons. One did minor first aid on an adult, on another trip the other did first aid and then evacuated the adult. Again no going behind the Scouts, no trying to push advancement, just there for the trek. yes we have a mom whose soen will not camp unless she is there, and then goes around behind him. We had another new parent, CM of the feeder pack, who still believes that everything the Boy Scouts do they should get a badge for, just like Cub Scouts. He, and several of the new parents described above, got upset because one trip did not result in a merit badge that we covered some of the skills on. The CM then publicly posted how the PLC needs to change their meeting plans so that they would nto let the troop down and the Scouts could earn the MB. SPL handled it beautifully: he posted that programing is not suppose to result in MBs, but rather learn skills and having fun and that plans for the next 2 months, which would be needed to earn the MB in question, have already been made and needed to be followed to prepare for the next two camping trips. Then we got one parent who is so advancement focused, wanting her son to be an Eagle, that she has gone around the SM, and trying to play one Scouter against the other, so that her son can get MB counselor names and start earning them. The kid barely got Tenderfoot, hasn't been camping since summer camp b/c mom didn't want to do those camp outs or because they showed up late that it would not count towards adancement ( he didn't set up his own tent/shelter) and the leave because "what is the point of being here?" So my problem, and others, is not that parents are becoming involved. It is that parents are coming into the troop, ignoring the experienced leaders, doing their own thing, hurting their own sons, and the rest of the Scouts in the troop. It's to the point that some of the older Scouts will stop what they are doign and walk away from whaterver they are suppose to do because they know the interfering adults will do it for them. But give them the opportunity to do something away from the new parents, and they are jumping at the opportunity and begging their parent to let them go.

My replies will be in red

I wish it was as simple as sending a SAM up their exhaust pipes. They have a Gunship in their corner that provides suppressing fire on occasion (why I don't know because he is ticked off at some of their antics, and I bet his APL son didn't tell Gunship the situation he encountered this past camp out). Plus they are good at evading radar, nap of the earth flying, etc.

I got mixed emotions on the flag issue. If the purpose is just to get the flag and keep the SM ordering it and adding to the costs, I have an issue. If the purpose is to surprise the SM with the retired flag b/c he is stepping down, I'm cool with it. My troop did just that.

Wanted to give an update. Still waiting for the meeting. We lost 2 good Scouters last nite. One is moving out of state, And I hope I got him to believe in the Patrol Method. In the 3 years his son has been in the troop, I've watched the son mature and grow up. Dad didn't really believe in the PM in the beginning, and I had to reign him in at times. But I think once he realized if adults get out of the way, the kids perform. Sad loss for the troop, and especially the son's patrol. He was PL and had a lot of new guys he was working with. We also lost one because of the helicopters. He's doing one last trip. I hope that 2 things happen. #1 The Leaders meeting we will be happening soon will end all the Cub Scout babysitting. And #2 he will have fun on that last trip, and take a break and come back. As for me, I'm in a holding pattern. I am hoping and praying that this upcoming meeting will work out. Several other Scouters in the troop are tired of the helicoptering, including the SM. As for siblings, my goal is to help them realize that the parents are hurting their Scouts by not letting them get away, be independent, and try new things without the family around and B) hurting the sibling because by attending stuff with older brother, he will be bored when it is his turn because he has done it all already. It took me looking at my Webelos, who has family camped with his brothers since he was a toddler, and seeing him not want to do things because he has done them "forever."

Understatement. We had a group that started pushing back, but as the adults did more and took decisions away from them, they appear to have said "The heck with it."

David, First off, THANK YOU for doing the COR job likes it's suppose to be done. Sadly, in my 25 years as a Scouter, i can count on one hand how many did what they were suppose to do. All, This exact situation, having experienced Boy Scouters go back and help Webelos is something I too have seen done. ASM saw some challenges with the WDLs, and ended up becoming the WDL. Unlike David, the COR is a paper one with that pack & troop, so when the paperwork came across, it was signed automatically by the CO. One reason why I was thinking of going back to Cubs, to work with the Webelos and make the transition a lot better. The new Scouts from that pack, and especially the parents, are still in Cub Scout mode. Kinda sad when Scouts viewing some of the posts on Facebook that the new parents are making are saying 'we need to limit who can post on the facebook page," and " It's starting to turn into Cub Scouts."

Ah ringer patrols. True story, we had one troop put all their older Scouts, specifically all the ones who went to Philmont that summer into a single patrol. It was quite humorous in that they didn't do to well, and were in fact the lower half of the patrols. That was a few years back. Closest we had to a ringer this year was a combined patrol. Long story short, one patrol had the bare minimum to compete, 4 Scouts, and the other patrol had only 3. They merged into a 7 man patrol for the weekend. Last year one of the two merged patrols was 2nd overall while the other patrol was in the top 5 overall. I think think they turned in their orienteering scorecard without their name on it, and lost a bunch of points as a result. If the score sheet I think was theirs was indeed theirs, they would have been second or third overall, instead of the top 10.

I agree partially Stosh. I agree that you need to get the Scouts' input as to what events to do. They know what they like to do. I disagree with him in having them run events. That's because i feel the event is for them and they should be having fun. BUT I would not stop them from helping if that is what they want to do. In fact I had two JASMs from 1 troop run an event at my camporee due to mobility issues with their adults. I did camporee for 2 years. First year it was thrown together in 2 months since the person in charge dropped the ball and quit. I used the Scouts in my troop, and some in my church, as a sounding board. Many, but not all, of their ideas were used. Some we just didn't have the time to put together, After the campfire the first year, I had a campwide PLC to get feedback and ideas from the Scouts. Very productive, and almost all of their ideas from that meeting were used. We had a planning meeting in which Scouts were invited. Tweeks to the ideas from the PLC, and some different, better ideas that the Scouts at the meeting had were incorporated. We had a lot of folks leave after campfire the second year, so the second campwide PLC was not as robust, but lots of good ideas came about and there is a consensus on next year's theme; Pioneering. Now what did my Scouts like? They like the Air-to Ground signals event with a drone. The troop running it has a drone up and take pictures to show the guys what it actually appears. Plus the drone simulated arial responses. Another event was the three fires with no matches. Blowguns was popular, but they rather do archery. Qwazse mentions getting some influential folks to back the more adventurous camporee ideas. THAT IS 110% CORRECT!!!!! The idea from the Scouts was survival and getting away from the trailers. I had so many complaints about not having trailers from adults, that I said the heck with it. We had one troop that did backpack i though. I really wish I could have gotten them to push the no trailer idea.

National did just that, in the 1970s, and look what happened.

Boy can I relate. Still did some of the fun, but not alot to do. I tried Sea Scouts, but the ship was "interesting." What did it for me was OA. Got super active in the lodge.

From the Congressional Charter, The purposes of the corporation [bSA] are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Don't read anything about "youth"

Atlanta Area Council made the ad, and others, a few years back.

I attribute it to the DL. While I like the new program, it got watered down in December 2016. We had 2 batches of Webelos cross over: one in January, and one in April. Both groups started with the new, 2015 program. The January group had two outstanding WDLs who made the transition smooth.The April Group started with the June 2015 program, but 1/2 ended up using the easier December 2016 requirements to get AOL, and one had to get his Webelos Badge under the 2016 requirements! Some things the January DLs did were the following: 1) Took WDL training and IOLS instead of WLOT. Not only did we not have WLOT available, the idea was he wanted to know what Boy Scouts was like, might as well take the training. 2) Used the denner position and gave them responsibilities . Grant you the pack didn't use them until Webelos. 3) gave expectations to the Webelos. 4) Had a chat with the parents while is AWDL ( she became the WDL when he became a TigerDL) about how Boy Scouts is about growing, accepting responsibility, etc. Told the parents they need to start backing off and letting the Webelos do things on their own. He then reminded the parents they needed to back off when they started to interfere during the year he had them. Aside: I believe this was the #1 most important thing in the transition: getting the parents to back off and not hover. Every issue I've faced workign with Boy Scouts is new Scout parents interfering. That is a major issue with my current troop. 5) If it hasn't happened already, take them camping. I know LDS packs has limitations on that. 6) Hook up with a troop and camp with them. be advised, Good luck and have fun.

So, Scouting has been stressing, me out as of late as evidenced in other threads. Need to focus on the good things to keep me going a little longer. So this thread is POSITIVE, things that you think about when things go south. Or as SGT. Oddball would say, 'Knock it off with them negative waves." I'll start. 1) View of the lake this weekend at sunrise. The sun was barely over the trees, the fog was on the lake, and the only thing up and about was the geese. Wish I had a camera with me. 2) Middle son's costume in the costume contest. He came really close to getting third as the Grim Reaper. 1 vote difference. 3) Friend's son winning First Place in the costume contest. The kid missed the morning portion of camporee, but had a blast that afternoon. He was looking forward to the contest because his costume took several months to make, and he made it from scratch. Everyone agreed it was the best one. 4) Having an out of district unit attend camporee, because the events looked like fun and they wanted to try it. They had a blast and are planning on attending next year. 5) We had 3 troops and 1 Webelos Den in attendance that normally do not attend district/council events. Do not know why they decided to attend this year's district camporee but was glad they had a positive experience. Cubmaster is now planning to attend the Webeloree in the spring. And I believe the three troops will be back. 6) One of the Life Scouts is busting butt to finish his Eagle requirements before his 18th Birthday this month. Seeing him grow up and take responsibility is a great motivator for being a Scouter. So what are some of yours?

Was it Mark Twain that said, " There are lies. There are damned lies. And then there are statistics."

Had the meeting and it was in one ear and out the other. If you try to enforce it, you are the bad guy. Give you an example. One of the Scouts on 3 camp outs now has snuck back into his parents' tent or shelter. Try to correct the situation and dad doesn't do a thing to encourage doing the right thing. This weekend he sat the first nite next to his son's tent until he fell asleep. When I treid to get dad away, I was told "Do yo want me to leave, because if you force this we will." Now I had enough to deal with running camporee, and went to talk to the adults that would be with the troop about the situation. They all knew about it, had no problems and one commented "glad he isn't leaving the shelter, baby steps." I walked off thinking "THIS IS FREAKING BOY SCOUTS!" Had a chat with the SM about all this. He does not see any problems with siblings tagging along. Part of that is his daughter will tag along on occasion. He says as long as they stay out of the way it should not be a problem. But the siblings do not. His daughter has jumped right in and do activities with the boys. The Tiger I mentioned above I spotted hanging around another unit's Webelos, and was all over the place getting in the thick of things. This morning while the troop was trying to pack up, he starts kicking around his soccer ball into shelters. The Scouts get and start playing a kicking game with him until the APL spots this and get the Scouts back to work. When the APL tells him he needs to kick elsewhere and points in a direction wher he could go and not be in the way, the Tiger yells "NO!" and then kicks the ball back towards the shelters, actually hitting it with the ball. That's when I told him he needed to go else where. Anyway, it appears that the bulk of the adults. want it to be "Family Friendly." There is suppose to be a meeting with all the adults to set up some ground rules up. Don't know if they will get any input form the Scouts or not. I am staying with the troop until after the meeting. After that I don't know. I do know that one small, struggling troop will shortly need an ASM. Something my wife suggested, and I have been invited to do, is getting back involved with the OA as an associate chapter adviser. A third idea that popped up is starting a Venturing crew.Out of the 16+ year old Scouts, only 1 showed up, and he was getting frustrated with the younger guys. I saw him away from the rest of the troop and start ranting to himself to release tension . As for the 14-15 year olds, the usual suspects were there, but I do not know how they felt. But I am going to find out. I know when they did the AT, they were vibrant and alive, now bored out of their gourd.

From previous conversations with him, there were only 2 adults willing to camp. One had to bring the daughter at times, the other a Cub aged grandson. The grandson who tagged along is his nephew. Good question. Answer, they have never been asked. The troop has been very much adult led, not youth led. As soon as we begin starting getting on track, something happens.