BrentAllen

I'm not so sure I would say they are at opposite ends. Cheney has said he thinks it is a state's rights issue. I think some people are putting more words in his mouth that what he actually said.

This just in, from the Virginia Democrat Primary for Governor... A gun-rights proponent (Deeds) wins against an environmentalist and same-sex marriage advocate (Moran). "Moran, a former House Democratic Caucus leader from Alexandria, went further to the left than his rivals in appealing to liberal activists. He pledged to oppose new coal-fired power initiatives and reverse the state's same-sex marriage ban." "McAuliffe and Moran had criticized Deeds for legislative votes supporting Virginia's broad pro-gun laws, actions popular in rural areas that don't play well in cities and affluent suburbs." "After Deeds surged in polling near the end of the campaign, his opponents attacked him for Senate votes against closing a loophole in state laws that exempt gun show sales from background checks. Federally licensed gun retailers must perform the checks." Yes, this was the Democrat Primary, not the Republican... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090610/D98NN9G00.html

I guess Atticus Finch wasn't a Boy Scout. I prefer his method. Kudu, The framers of the Constitution didn't get it perfect the first time, hence the amendments. I hardly expect the Charter to have been perfect either, and the program needs amending from time to time. Are Scouts not allowed to use GPS since it wasn't in use in 1917? What about modern hiking water filters? I don't see how in the world you can teach Scouts Citizenship and not cover how our government works. We teach Scouts to be obedient, to obey the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an obedient manner rather than disobey them. Would we teach them that, and then leave them hanging? Besides there is a hands-on component to the Cit. MBs. Locate local government buildings, attend a city council meeting, conduct an interview, visit the state or US Capitol, etc.

As with most subjects, I find it depends on the instructor. When I was at Georgia Tech, we had a Poli Sci professor who was a fantastic teacher. Everyone wanted to take his class. He made the material interesting, even fascinating. Take the same course with the same text from another professor, and you'd be pulling your hair out from boredom. Same thing will Cit. MBs at Summer Camp. I've walked by some of these sessions where they had great debate and discussion going on, with the boys on the edges of their seats. So yes, these MBs can be taught in a manner exciting to the boys. And it is one hour a day, for the 5 days at camp. Can we not ask the boys for one hour a day? Is that really too much? We expect the boys to know proper flag etiquette, is it too much to expect them to know how their government works?

le V, I was just reading about that very subject in two of my Cliff Jacobson books, Canoeing & Camping, beyond the basics, and Canoeist's Q & A, Scenarios for Serious Canoeists. He warns against going to shore if it is lined with the tallest trees around, or if the shoreline is rough, as in lined with bolders or steep cliffs. If the shoreline is clear, then get off the water. He mentions a lightening-protected zone that extends from the tops of the tallest trees (or other geographic features) outward about 45 degrees in all direction. He recommends paddling within this safe "cone of protection" but not so close to its center that lightening may jump from a tree to you. He says lightening can easily breach 10 or 30 feet, so stay 50 - 100 feet offshore. He claims that is the safest place to be, if you can't get to shore safely, away from the tallest trees. If you hear a storm approaching, start making plans. Track the approach of the storm by counting the seconds between strike and thunder, and divide by 5 for miles away. I think the decision for when to stop depends on the speed at which the storm is approaching. The lifeguards at our pool get everyone out as soon as they hear thunder, and won't allow anyone back in until there hasn't been any thunder for 20 minutes. That may be a little overkill if on a trek, but it would be pretty safe. Sorry I don't have a straight answer, but that's part of why I'm reading the books. :-)

I wear my beads all the time when in uniform. I worked very hard to earn them, and the Pack showed big improvements as a result of my ticket (if I do say so myself). I was very fortunate to serve on staff in Summer 2008 under a CD who is the most dedicated Scouter I know. For starters, he served on staff when my dad took WB back in 1975. That was the first of 13 staff experiences he would have. This CD has been a SM for 34 years, even though he never had a son in Scouting (he does have a daughter). In 34 years as a SM, he has missed one Troop camping trip, which happened to be the month his daughter was born. So, that type of committment is what I think of when I see WB beads. This CD has attended and staffed both the old course and the new course. He doesn't complain about one, or try to compare the two. He sees the positives in the course, and is willing to devote many days to putting on the best course possible. I know several other SMs with over 30 years of service, and everyone of them have been through WB. It is hard for me to be negative about a course that has helped produce such dedicated Scouters.

Kudu, While you know where I stand on Patrol Method and keeping the outing in Scouting, I have to play Devil's Advocate here and ask how learning to tie a clove hitch is better at teaching citizenship than is earning the Citizenship MBs? Personally, I think there is room for both in the program, and both are worthwhile. From the Congressional Report In Support of Act To Incorporate Boy Scouts of America, Feb. 7, 1916: The Scout scheme is based up the methods involved in educating the boy. It is a scheme of placing a boy on honor. In addition to requiring him to live up to a standard or code of laws which insure development of character along proper lines, it requires him to study in order to pass certain tests of qualification. The passing of these various tests is recognized by the award of appropriate badges or medals and insignia. Sounds a little like school there to me. Study? Pass tests? If it makes you happy, just teach the course outdoors. ;^)

37? ASM? Teacher? Sorry, but I have reason to believe you are not being honest. You'll have to find someone else to play debate with.

xlpanel, Let me ask you a few questions, since I have answered yours. Are you in Scouting? What age? What religion? FYI, Christians follow the New Testament. Another FYI, thou shall not kill applies to humans. It would have been pretty hard to make the sacrifices God required if you couldn't kill an animal.

xlpanel, Sorry, but I don't have much time for silly philosophical debates, or trolls. I am a Christian so my morals come from the Bible. The Bible does not change based on majority rule. Our Troop is chartered by our Baptist church, so even though we have Hindus, Jews, Catholics and others as members, the moral standards are those of the church. Anyone who doesn't agree with those morals is welcome to go join another Troop. I am the Scoutmaster. Who put me in charge? Our Senior Pastor and our Chartered Organization Representative. As for 13 or 14 year olds showing other Scouts porn and you not doing anything about it, I suggest you check into laws concerning contributing to the delinquency of a minor. They are serious. Even without those laws, if I were to do as you suggest, no one in our community would allow their son to join our Troop. Allow that happen to once, and the Troop will soon die. Word about such incidents travels like wildfire, and has no mercy. I remember being in High School and thinking I knew everything. Then I went to Georgia Tech and found out how naive I was. I graduated and thought I knew everything. Then I entered the real world with a job and found out how naive I was. I made a few bucks in a decent job, got married, and thought I knew everything. Then I became a father and found out how naive I was. Now I have a teenager and a younger daughter, and have a few years in as a Scoutmaster, and I see that I have actually learned a few lessons in my 46 years. High School philosophy classes are fun - enjoy them while you can. Just don't expect the real world to mirror them.

To respond to Kudu: Charter and Bylaws Boy Scouts of America Article X. Program Program Objectives Section 1. The program shall be one designed to achieve objectives in character development, citizenship training and mental and physical fitness. In all activities, emphasis shall be placed upon practice in daily life of the principles of the Tiger Cub Promise, the Cub Scout Promise, the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Venturing Code. In association with suitable adult leadership, members registered in Scouting will be guided to develop traits of character which are expressed in self-reliance, consideration of and help to others, personal courage, and above all in lives of useful citizenship. The Congressional Charter authorized the BSA to adopt and amend bylaws and regulations, which the above is from. BTW, we are still using methods in place in 1915. We camp in tents, hike, backpack, and canoe.

xlpanel, You are correct. We should all just give up. (to fish by pulling a lure slowly behind a boat)

xlpanel, I'm sorry to hear you are having a difficult time defining morality. There are many sources you can fall back on, especially in your religious institution. Short of that, try this standard: Is the act or subject matter something you could comfortably discuss with your mom, dad AND religious leader at the kitchen table? If not, then you should take a hard look at the subject matter; my guess is it will probably not pass the "moral" test. Teaching our youth to make moral and ethical decisions is our mission. How we go about teaching our youth may vary, but that is the misson of the BSA - not teaching how to camp. If our youth are only learning how to better hide their failings (porn), then we are failing in our mission. I personally believe the teaching begins with the attitude of the adult leaders, and the culture they foster in their Troop. The youth you mention may be pretty good at hiding their porn, but you must remember that God gave adults one advantage they will always have over the youth - years of experience. Finally, if I had a Scout who just got better at hiding his porn, or anything similar, he would ultimately have to make a decision - does he want to be a Scout or not? A Scout wouldn't do that, so either correct your ways or leave the Troop.

Anyone who thinks sexting isn't a big issue needs to pull their head out of the sand. There have been stories in the news about young girls committing suicide because sexting pictures were sent around her school. The story usually involves the girl sending the pictures to her boyfriend, for his eyes only. They have a fight, or she dumps him, and he retaliates by sending the photos to all his friends. They soon end up everywhere, and she is the laughing stock of the school. Now that we are at Summer Camp season, imagine boys in the shower house with a cell phone camera or digital camera. They would just think it is funny, but let some of those photos get sent around and see how quickly the fun ends. Now imagine it is your son who ended up in the pictures, through no fault of his own. Scouting offers boys an environment in which everyone can feel secure both physically and emotionally. That sense of security comes from Scoutmasters and other adult leaders 1. Setting an example for themselves and others by living the Scout Oath and Law to the best of their abilities. 2. Refusing to tolerate name-calling, put-downs, discrimination, or any form of physical aggression. 3. Communicating their acceptance of boys by taking a real interest in each Scout. 4. Using the Scouting program to create a setting based on learning and fun. They seek the best from each Scout and do all they can to allow him to achieve it. SM HB If that means we are seen as "up-tight" then so be it. Our "up-tight" program provides plenty of adventure for our Scouts.

When I was CM, I knew I could never force a DL to take on more boys than they wanted. Just like everyone else, the DLs can vote with their feet. If I tried to force them to do something they didn't want to do, they would either just quit or take their Den to another Pack. One August we had a bunch of new 2nd Graders join the Pack. The other 3 Wolf Dens were full (overflowing) and we had 7 new boys wanting to join. I asked the existing DLs if they could take any more boys, and they all said they couldn't, though they wished they could. I respected their decisions. As CM, I told the new parents they would need to form a new Den. No one stepped forward at the School Night for Scouting. We kept working on the issue that week, and still did not have a new leader as of the first Pack Meeting. I finally took all the new parents into a classroom and laid down the law. The existing Dens are overloaded. This will be a new Den, or your sons will not be in this Pack. Your options are someone steps up to be the DL or you look into joining another Pack in the area. I told them I needed their answer when they came out of the room, and left. It was like a big poker game. Finally one of the parents stepped up, and she and her husband have been very involved with the Pack since then. On the other side of the coin, I had a Webelos II DL that had 15 boys in his Den. The other Webelos DL moved away, and no one would step up. This DL has a huge heart and agreed to take them on. The other parents recognized the huge committment this DL was making, and stepped up to help as assistants. In the end it all worked out, and 14 of the 15 boys crossed over into Boy Scouts. As SM, I recruited this guy hard, more than anyone else. I saw that he was the type who would do whatever it took to get the job done. Luckily he joined out Troop and he has become a very important part of our leadership team. Amy, I would suggest you pray for guidance and do what is best for you and your Den.

Lisa, The participants each receive a participant notebook, similar to what you received at WB. Some of it will look very familiar. The SM could sit down with the Scouts when they return and start with the notebook to see what they learned, and more importantly, how they want to apply what they learned. I asked a lot of questions on our trip back home Saturday morning, but the boys were pretty tired. They had a great week, and really came away understanding the dynamics of team building, as well as learning some new skills, games, etc. We had a PLC meeting last night, and I sat at a different table and let the boys completely run the meeting. I've been teaching them how to run the meetings since we first elected an SPL back in late March, slowly handing off the responsibilities. But last night, I let them totally run the show. It wasn't a boardroom-slick production, but they got the job done. I was impressed that they recognized we only had two weeks before Summer Camp, they figured out what needed to covered for the new Scouts in that time period, and even invented a game to help reinforce the lessons. Not too bad for a bunch of 13 year olds. The weirdest story to come out of the course so far was the oldest (17), biggest and strongest Scout went home after the first day. It rained pretty heavily that day, and according to the boys, it was too much for this Life Scout to handle, so he pulled the rip cord. Interestingly, this same Scout is headed to Philmont later this summer. One other (sad) story - one of our PLs said he was the only one in his Patrol who could tie a bowline, which was made of up 7 Scouts, mostly Star and Life. A bowline?!?! A sad statement on our program. Eagle92, Has your Council held that Orientation lately? That is one of the requirements for the Scoutmaster's Key - "8.Participate as an adult in youth leader training by either serving on the staff or attending the Scoutmaster orientation session of the national youth leader training conference." I've asked around at our Council about that Orientation, and no one appears to have ever heard of it. They seem to think it is a National event. I would attend, if it were offered. If it has been offered lately, could you send me a contact name of someone involved in hosting it? Thanks.

Gern, I'm a conservationist, not a preservationist. That oil has been conserved for thousands of years, it is time to use it. Why do you want to preserve it? Horizon, My statement about the spill site was correct - it cleaned up nicely. May not be exactly as it was before, but it sure isn't a brownfield.

Lisa, We had one more Scout that we were hoping could attend NYLT this year, but he is still in school this week (private school). He called me tonight and he is going to attend next week, so our courses are still accepting Scouts. Our council runs three courses over three weeks. There are around 96 Scouts in the course this week, divided into 2 Troops. I understand the next two weeks will see bigger numbers, around 115 - 120. So yes, Scouts can still get in down here. Good luck.

Gern, So I guess since there was at least one plane crash in the history of aviation, you never fly? There are car crashes every day - how do you manage to drive? Since they happened once, they can surely happen again, right? Better stay home and lock the doors. It's a scary world out there. The Exxon Valdez spill was caused by a drunk captain. Thousands of tankers travel the seas every year without an accident. The spill area cleaned up pretty nicely. Sorry, but we really can't destroy the world. Conservation involves the study of healthy herds and the amount of land needed to support a healthy herd. It involves the harvesting of animals to help maintain the healthy herd, and using the revenue from license fees and taxes on ammo, guns and hunting gear to buy land for WMAs. Exploitation is when a bunch of bleeding heart liberals give up all common sense and decide to follow "consensus science" instead of real science, led by their fearless leader, Al Gore. :-)

Gern, I thought you said you drove a gas-hog pick-up or SUV. Was I wrong? A conservationist recognizes that oil companies can drill without destroying the environment. We recognize that oil is still a good energy source, and that wind farms are not going to be very economical or aesthetic (for all those electric cars that are going to magically appear in the near future). Might as well go get the oil while we are still using internal combustion engines. pack, The following is from wikipedia - sorry, this is a quick and easy answer: "Environmental preservation, chiefly in the United States, is viewed as the strict setting aside of natural resources to prevent damage caused by contact with humans or by certain human activities, such as logging, mining, hunting, and fishing, only to replace them with new human activities such as tourism and recreation. It is different from conservation; conservation allows for some degree of industrial development, albeit it within sustainable limits. Regulations and laws may be enacted for the preservation of natural resources." "Contemporary environmentalists are often described as being split into three groups: Dark, Light, and Bright Greens. Light Greens see protecting the environment first and foremost as a personal responsibility. They fall in on the reformist end of the spectrum introduced above, but light Greens do not emphasize environmentalism as a distinct political ideology, or even seek fundamental political reform. Instead they often focus on environmentalism as a lifestyle choice.[9] The motto "Green is the new black." sums up this way of thinking, for many.[10] In contrast, Dark Greens believe that environmental problems are an inherent part of industrialized civilization evident in both state socialist and capitalist societies, and seek radical political change. As discussed earlier, 'dark greens' tend to believe that dominant political ideologies (sometimes referred to as industrialism) are corrupt and inevitably lead to consumerism, alienation from nature and resource depletion. Dark Greens claim that this is caused by the emphasis on growth that exists within all existing ideologies, a tendency referred to as growth mania. The dark green brand of environmentalism is associated with ideas of Deep Ecology, Post-materialism, Holism, the Gaia Theory of James Lovelock and the work of Fritjof Capra. The division between light and dark greens was visible in the fighting between Fundi and Realo factions of the German Green Party.[citation needed] More recently, a third group may be said to have emerged in the form of Bright Greens. This group believes that radical changes are needed in the economic and political operation of society in order to make it sustainable, but that better designs, new technologies and more widely distributed social innovations are the means to make those changes-- and that we can neither shop nor protest our way to sustainability.[11] As Ross Robertson writes, "right green environmentalism is less about the problems and limitations we need to overcome than the tools, models, and ideas that already exist for overcoming them. It forgoes the bleakness of protest and dissent for the energizing confidence of constructive solutions." "Anti-environmentalism is a backlash against the environmentalist movement. Anti-environmentalists believe that earth is not as fragile as environmentalists maintain, citing its 5 billion year existence versus the 50 year environmentalist viewpoint. Some also believe that environmentalism is born of mankind's exaggerated sense of importance, that environmentalism is an extremist viewpoint due accordant scrutiny, and/or that some environmentalist factions use pseudo-science and scare tactics in an attempt to force their philosophical/religious values and political agenda on others." "Some say the conservation movement is part of the broader and more far-reaching environmental movement, while others argue that they differ both in ideology and practice. Chiefly in the United States, conservation is seen as differing from environmentalism in that it aims to preserve natural resources expressly for their continued sustainable use by humans." "For President Roosevelt, the conservation movement was not about the preservation of nature simply for nature itself. After his experiences traveling as an enthusiastic,zealous hunter, Roosevelt became convinced of "the need for measures to protect the game species from further destruction and eventual extinction".[9] President Roosevelt recognized the necessity of carefully managing America's natural resources. According to Roosevelt, "We are prone to speak of the resources of this country as inexhaustible; this is not so".[10] Nonetheless, Roosevelt believed that conservation of America's natural resources was for the successful management and continued sustain yield harvesting of these resources in the future for the benefit and enjoyment of the American people."

pack, Theodore Roosevelt was a conservationist. Al Gore is an environmentalist. John Muir was a conservationist. His organization was taken over by environmentalists.

Gern, Did you drive your Prius out on that trip, like the rest of those enviros? ;^)

Gern wrote: "However, the environmentalists are the ones out in the back country. They are the ones appreciating nature and wanting to preserve it. The anti-enviros are the ones standing in their fenced backyards, sucking down a cold one and spouting "drill, baby, drill". Most have never set foot more than 20 ft away from their SUV, but are experts on the environment because they watched Man Vs. Wild. Once you take the modern suburbanite into the wilds and expose them to the beauty and fragility of nature, they become environmentalists. Sorry, but I disagree. I'm an anti-environmentalist and I'm camping at least once a month, in addition to spending at least two weeks in the woods. I spout "drill, baby, drill." I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist (and that is HUGE difference). The environmentalist I know locally hang out at the local city park, but never venture into the backcountry, and would never think of spending the night in a tent. IMO, they are "big hat, no cattle." But they sure can tell you how "green" they are, all the while patting themselves on the back for saving the world. If you want to see what happens when a typical environmentalist goes into the backcountry, tune into The Discovery Channel next Tuesday evening at 10:00 PM Eastern. It should be entertaining.

Trev, Let's be honest - the citizens of Iowa did not vote to approve same-sex marriage - the court ruled the ban was unconstitutional. That is a big difference. California did vote to amend their constitution to ban same-sex marriage, and the courts just upheld the amendment, 6-1. So, maybe things aren't changing as fast as you think.

GWD, If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself a couple of questions and act based on those answers. 1. Why are the new Scout patrols doing so well? Is it because of the TGs, or because of something else (personalities?)? If it is because of the TGs, will the patrols still succeed without someone in the TG position? Are they going to need someone in the TG position, going to summer camp? 2. Would those boys in the dynamite patrol be better off serving in other positions? Since they all appear to want to be in a leadership position, could you take two of them and make them TGs, and take the other four and let them be QM, Scribe, Librarian, Historian or ASPL? Would the Troop function better with those Scouts in those positions, or as the dynamite patrol? If you are worried about a new Scout being elected PL over one of the older Scouts, you can always encourage the PLC to set standards for positions (must be FC to run for PL, for example). Good luck with your decisions! As an update on our situation, we took the 14 new Scouts and divided them up into 3 groups. We formed the new third patrol with 3 existing Scouts, 2 rising 8th graders and a rising 7th grader. The three groups of new Scouts spent nearly a month with each patrol (March, April, May). Two weeks ago, the SPL had each boy write down his first two choices for the patrol he wanted to join, and a buddy he wanted to be in a patrol with. The PLC took those ballots and divided the boys up into the three existing patrols based on those requests, and made the announcements last week. I think it worked out pretty well, and we are now focusing on getting ready for Summer Camp (3rd week of June). Tonight's meeting will be a little different, as 4 of our older boys (SPL and PLs) are attending NYLT this week. I'm hoping they have a great week, and they want to incorporate a lot of what they learn when they get back, especially at Summer Camp. I think we are building a strong foundation for the Troop, but only time will tell.