BrentAllen

John, My main point was that many of the staff are under 18, and they are allowed to help teach the classes. Each Area has a MB Counselor who supervises the staff and teaches. The term "counselor" gets tossed around loosely at camp, so 16 & 17 year olds may call themselves counselors when by BSA Standards they aren't. "Camp staff members under age 18 may assist with instruction but cannot serve in the role of the merit badge counselor." Shortridge's post made it sound like ALL staff at Summer Camp teaching MB classes had to be 18 and had to be approved MB Counselors, which isn't the case. With a camp the size of Woodruff, it would be impossible to give out Blue Cards for every Scout (800 - 1200 Scouts per week). At the end of the week, we receive a "Scout MB Completion Report" for each Scout. It lists all the MBs the Scout took, and each MB is marked either as Completed or Partial, with the requirements that weren't completed listed. At the bottom, it states "I certify that the Scout listed above completed the course of study for the listed merit badges. If the "Completed" box is checked, then all requirements for the merit badge were completed satisfactorily. Otherwise, the comments indicate which requirements were not completed, and a partial is issued for the uncompleted merit badge." It is signed by the Program Director. If the report states completed, I award the MB to the Scout. It is my understanding that the MB Counselor for the badge has submitted that information to the Program Director. I have to turn in an Advancement Report to the Council (or do it online) in order to purchase the badges at the Scout Shop. The Camp Staff do not turn this information into the Council or to Scoutnet.org. That may be what they mean about the unit leader awarding credit. HTH.

Boomer, OGE is correct, the neckerchief is very much a part of Scouting around the world. f_cbb, I wrote that because you seem to be implying that the two (skills & uniform or service & uniform) were not compatible. You didn't offer as part of the comparison a Scout in correct uniform who was proficient in skills or attended all service projects. I would be interested to hear your opinion with that third choice added.

We have not had any problems silk screening our wicking T's. Last year I compared our cotton T's to the polyester at Summer Camp, wearing them on alternate days. We had a relatively cool week last year, with fairly low humidity. Even in those conditions, the polyester was much more comfortable to me. I have an old REI wicking t-shirt, which may be polypropylene, and it is not very comfortable at all. Lots of static electricity and it will pick at your skin. These new shirts don't have any of those problems. Poly shirts can be made from recycled plastic, and can be recycled themselves. Last time I checked, cotton was harvested with farm machinery (I have family that farms in south Georgia, cotton being one of their crops). I believe those tractors still use oil. :-)

shortridge, Summer Camp staff do not have to be registered MB Counselors. From our Council Summer Camp Leader Guide: "Camp staff do not sign off on any advancement or merit badge requirements, rather they report the achievement to the unit leader via the end of camp advancement reports. It is the responsibility of the unit leader to actually award credit for completing advancement or merit badge requirements."

"A scout who can tie all his knots but doesn't wear a uniform is gonna be held higher than one who has a perfect uniform but can't do anything to save his life. A scout that shows up to all the service projects with no uniform will impress the organization the projects are for much more than the scout who has a perfect uniform but does not show." I didn't realize that Scout skills and uniforming were mutually exclusive, or that service and uniforming were mutually exclusive.

"Hey John, I'm just pointing out that on one hand we (BSA) champion the boy led theory and on the other we (BSA) take the simplest task such as choosing a MBC, and make it an adult decision." This is how "boy-led" gets twisted into things it isn't supposed to be. How is a boy choosing a MB counselor leading anyone? This part of the program isn't about leadership issues - it is about Adult Association. Boy-led is about leading patrols and other PORs, planning the annual calendar, trips and weekly meetings. It is about working with teams (patrols, PLC) and getting the members working towards a common goal. Choosing a MB counselor does none of this. The SM is in charge of the advancement program. He assigns the MB counselors.

If you are dealing with the problem Scout in a patrol manner, start with a little fun trying to get them "on time." The boys in our Troop do this sometimes with "Birds in the Wilderness" while we are waiting. This is done when the Troop is forming up at our flag pole in the morning. Since we cooked in camp, we did our own flag service in camp. For us, a few verses of Birds in the Wilderness took care of slow-moving Scouts. If the problem is more serious, first try and let the boys work it out. I would make the Patrol pay the price and be late or miss an event. The boys will apply more pressure, and more of the type pressure you want - peer - than you can as an adult. They have their own way of delivering messages and getting everyone to pull their load. I have never worried about a "Code Red" in our Troop. If the PL just can't get things to work out, he will go to the SPL or mention things at the PLC (we had daily PLCs at summer camp, which gave me a chance to see how the leaders were doing and look for problems). Encourage the PLs to work things out, give him some suggestions - make sure the duty roster is clear and fair, praise the boys that do a good job, etc. Our PLs were complaining at the beginning of the week, but had things worked out by mid-week, on their own. Be sure to give them time to work it out on their own. If that doesn't happen, give the PLs some cards to play. "The SM is not going to be happy about this" is a good one. The PL never explains what will happen if the SM isn't happy - he just has to let the Scout know the SM may have to deal with him, and the SM isn't going to be happy. The message to the boy is - you can deal with me, or deal with the SM. Most boys choose dealing with the PL. An SPL Conference is another card. The PL asks the SPL to have a conference with the Scout. The SPL gives him a talk about teamwork, carrying your load, what would happen if everyone skipped out on their job. Sometimes a little conference away from all the members of the Patrol can open the boy up, and he might reveal some other issue causing the trouble. If none of that works and the Scout is standing before the SM, some "busy time" projects might be in order. Cleaning the latrine, carrying trash, camp improvement projects - these usually get the boy much more interested in his patrol duties. If that still doesn't work, call the PL over in front of the boy and give him a few bucks and tell him he can take the members of his patrol who completed their duties on time down to the Trading Post for ice cream. The trouble Scout stays in camp to complete his busy time project. This must be handled very delicately by the SM. He can't ever appear to be mad or upset with the Scout. He handles everything very matter-of-factly. Everything is presented as "this is the choice you made" and can be turned around in a heartbeat. No threats or anything, just let him see what camp is going to be like if he chooses not to carry his weight with the patrol. That is the message you are trying to send. Be a team player and everything works out for everyone. We weren't able to do Thorns and Roses every night, but we made sure we did it on Tuesday night (usually the climax for home sick problems). The Patrol can hold their own Thorns and Roses session, if need be. I have seen some real problems with behavior solved by simply going around the campfire in T & R. This is one of my favorite parts of Scouting. Usually the last thing I want is a trouble Scout's parent(s) on the scene. You may find they condone the behavior and then you have bigger problems on your hands. I think we can work things out much better on our own. I also don't believe in sending Scouts home, unless it is a serious health and safety issue. Going home would be easier than staying in camp and living with the consequences.

Sparta Patrol, You are quickly learning one of the final lessons of leadership that often gets neglected. "What is going to happen when I leave? Will all the hard work I put in simply disappear? Will it all have been for nothing?" The lesson I am talking about is succession planning - finding the person or persons who are going to take the position you are leaving, and training them to fill it. Hopefully you can keep them from making some of the mistakes you made when you first took the position, and they can get up the learning curve much faster with your knowledge. I think you will find the hardest part of this lesson is finding the right person to fill your position. Good luck.

This "we'll lose boys if we enforce uniforming" is just another in a long list of excuses, and it doesn't hold a single drop of water with me. I've seen Scouts, who wear the shirt only with their units, go to staff at Summer Camp or NYLT and be in full uniform. I've asked a few about this, and they say "the full uniform is required here." Summer Camp and NYLT didn't lose any boys by requiring full uniform - they are usually turning boys away. So, why would the same boy wear a shirt only with his Troop, but is willing to wear the full uniform at camp? He sure didn't leave Scouting because someone required him to wear it.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

ASM, Do you have any apostrophies or commas in the subject line? Sometimes those or other unusual characters will create a problem. HTH.

I'm guessing that is a typo. Bill is out of one of the Troops in our District. His credentials are top-shelf, so I can't imagine us wanting anyone else in that position. From what I've been able to observe, he really enjoys that job. Like most of us, he really enjoys working with the youth.

Lisa, We get ours at one of the local Army Navy stores http://www.armynavydiscountcenter.com/. The soldiers in the photo loading the water are wearing them, it appears. They are listed at $10.97, but they sell them to us at $10 each (Scout discount). We get a local t-shirt company to print them, for around $2 - $2.50. The Scouts pay $15 for them, with the the extra going to the Troop general fund. We used to get "seconds" from them for $6 but that supply ran out. The brand name on the tag says Tru-Spec. They are 100% polyester, tan, and come only in adult sizes. The Smalls are a little big on our smallest Scouts, but not too bad. The boys and adults have put these shirts to the test, and they hold up great. Very comfortable, they are just as soft as cotton, and they work. We offered some cotton versions last year for $10, and we still have some of them on hand. Everyone much prefers the poly, even though it is 50% more expensive. Edited to add - a quick internet search shows US Calvary is selling them as well, for internet sells. Their prices are $8.99 - $10.99, depending on size. http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=10347&tabID=548(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Lisa, The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced the uniforming problem is the adults, not the boys. Evidence: You and others have mentioned how the boys like the new Switchback pants, and even wear them to school. RememberSchiff even says there are no complaints about the new pants. So the pants aren't a problem. But what do we see at flags at Summer Camp and at other events? Shirts only. Gern says his unit wears shirts only. Many had admitted in this thread that their boys wear the shirts and blue jeans. They don't like the shirts, but they wear them. They like the pants, but don't wear them. So what gives? They like the pants, but don't wear them? I find that hard to believe. I find it much easier to believe the parents just don't buy them. Ready for cross-examination.

Lisa, Smoking? Just a little Scout Spirit around the campfire. I can only speak from my perspective in here Dunwoody. The boys in our Troop have no problem wearing the full uniform. Of the 5 Troops in Dunwoody, 4 are full uniform Troops. As I have said many times before, I don't say a word to our boys about uniforming, unless it is to compliment them on how well dressed they look. At new parent orientation, I explain our Troops expectations, which covers all the Methods indirectly. That includes that we are a full uniform Troop. It takes the cross overs a few weeks to get their uniform together, and they never hear a word from me about it. It is a Troop culture the boys promote. Lisa, you have to admit - it would be hard for a boy to wear the uniform if mom and dad never buy it, correct? I have to ask one more time - why does uniforming work in Dunwoody, but not in other areas? I also know Troops in Marietta, Roswell, Norcross and other areas around town that wear full uniform. What is the difference?

Eamonn, Here is another possibility for you - maybe it isn't the boys who are doing all the complaining about the uniforms, maybe it's the parents. A lot of the complaints are about cost. Since the huge majority of parents buy the uniform for their sons, cost wouldn't be an issue for the boys. But if mom and dad don't want to shell out the bucks, maybe they convince junior the uniform is dorky, or just won't buy it for him. From my perspective, the boys just aren't that fashion-conscious and will wear the uniform in public. They won't wear it to school, but the same goes for martial arts uniforms, athletic uniforms, etc. It is the parents who would rather drive home and change out of their uniform and then go back for a gallon milk rather than stopping by on the way home in uniform. So maybe most of the anti-uniforming comes from the adults, not the boys.

Beavah's and Lisa's points on new Scouts in new-Scout patrols is spot on, especially if the new Scouts came from different Packs. If the boys are all from the same Pack, they may be used to the boy's behaviour and just roll with it, which is probably your worst situation. The solution I mentioned is for a mixed-age Patrol. You are going to need an older, strong-willed PL to have a chance at pulling it off, someone the boys respect and follow. That is our current situation. We have decided not to use New Scout Patrols.

Excellent job, CA! I bet that SPL was bragging to his parents about how he was in charge of the entire Troop for the trip! His confidence is surely growing, and he will be wanting more responsibility on down the road. He is setting a great example for the rest of the Troop. You can't buy this stuff with any amount of money!

I think you can take this problem on in one or two ways - the adults handle it, or the boys do. It will be easier if the adults handle it, as Beavah mentions, but I'm not sure if it is the most effective, in the long run. If you have a strong-willed Scout as his PL, you have a chance of letting the boys work it out. The PL will need plenty of coaching and support, from his SPL, his other Patrol members, and the other adults. If the boy in question refuses to do his part, the Patrol doesn't move forward until the boy completes the task. The Patrol may miss out on some fun events, but that is the price they have to pay, and the boy sees this. It can cause some hard feelings, but this is part of developing patrol spirit. The boy sees he needs to be a part of the team and pull his weight, or the team suffers. When arguments develop, the SM steps in to observe, but doesn't act unless it really gets out of hand. If the boy goes to the SM to plead his case, the SM defers to the PL. This reminds me of breaking a wild horse (which I've never personally done) in that it is going to take time and hard work. The final card for the SM, if things don't work out, is to remove the boy from the Patrol and put him in his own one-man Patrol (unless you have another boy with a similar attitude). Let him be in charge of his own camping - tenting, meals, etc. If it goes that far, you are probably going to lose the boy. None of us like to lose a Scout, but we all have to realize that Scouting isn't for everyone. Good luck.

highcountry, Are you being intentionally difficult? You posted: 2 Boys, one showing to be a PROBLEM (Negative non scout behavior) the Other leading and teaching others (A postive behavior we want more of in out Units). You have stated they are both paricipating equally. I never said "one showing to be a PROBLEM (Negative non scout behavior)" Take that out of the equation. BOTH boys are leading and teaching others, BOTH are acting in a Scout-like manner, the ONLY difference is in what they wore to the meeting. Get it? NO difference in behaviour. I don't know how I can make this any clearer! I give up...

Gern, I must have done a bad job in communicating, because I never meant to say your Scouts or your district has no ethics or character. To me, character is NOT a "yes or no" issue, meaning you either fully have it or you don't. I see character as being measured across a broad spectrum. And across that spectrum, I see Scouts who take the time and effort to wear the complete, correct uniform as having more character than those that don't. I make no apologies for holding that opinion. I see it as an issue of both respect for the organization and those who came before us, and one of character. You are free to disagree. Hal, I agree on the current neckerchiefs. I was also given one of the neckerchiefs from the Sea Scouts in South Africa. It is great! Nice big size, very nice material, including a ribbon stitched in along the edge. That description doesn't do it justice. If you go here http://www.bergvliet.entry.co.za/ and go under photos, and then under Best Scouting Pictures, you will see a photo of the unit in full uniform with neckers. Another photo of one of their Scouters is here http://www.kontiki.za.org/2001pics/2001mealzx.jpg If the Troop votes in favor of them, we will most likely have them custom made, similar in size to the one from South Africa.

Hal, I didn't say or ask you to disparage the Scout out of uniform - I asked if you thought they had the same character. One takes the time and effort to be in uniform, the other doesn't. Does one have even slightly more character than the other? If no neckers means no character, then that includes us. The Troop hasn't voted to wear them - yet. I've shown them the really nice Scout hat I received as a gift from the 1st Bergvliet Sea Scouts in Cape Town, SA, customized with my name embroidered across the back. We are working on coming up with a custom hat, with the names on them. If we get those, the boys might vote for a matching necker. I have a feeling if they do vote on one, it will only be for COHs, Scout Sunday and other formal events. See BadenP, if I was forcing Uniforming on the Troop, they would be wearing neckers and hats. That isn't the case. Yes, I'm trying to persuade them, but no luck yet.

highcountry, You are really having difficulty with this, and it isn't that hard. Two Scouts, both participating in the same program, both doing the same thing, both well-behaved, involved in the program. One is wearing the complete correct uniform, the other is wearing only his Scout shirt with jeans. The only difference between the boys is what they have chosen to wear to the Troop meeting. Both boys know what the complete correct uniform is (they read it in their Scout Handbook, pg 12), both know the BSA policy. Do they both have the same character - moral and ethical strength? One chooses to follow the rules and regs of the BSA, the other chooses to ignore them. What is the 7th point of the Scout Law? In case you haven't noticed, this is a forum for posting opinions. The question here is about uniforms. I chose to participate and express my opinions here. Outside of the cyber world, I never say anything to another unit about their uniforming. I never send a boy home or don't allow him to participate if he is out of uniform. Our PLC pushed the uniforming, and the boys push each other. They want to earn the quarterly Honor Patrol award, and the prize that goes with it. They get compliments on their uniforming, and they buy into the concept. Once the culture is in place, it takes care of itself. It is just like any other habit - it will be a good habit, or a bad one. Gern, I attend our contemporary service at church - very casual here, as well. I wear a suite probably 5 days a year (white collar job). I don't think our cultures are that different. If you were true mavericks, your unit would go full uniform. Sounds to me like you are part of the herd out there.

Hal, They are both doing the same thing - attending a weekly Troop meeting, learning a new skill, participating in a Patrol meeting, playing a game. The only difference is what they are wearing.

highcountry, I couldn't give a rat's behind about the uniforming in your Troop. That is up to you, though I do agree with B-P about a Troop's uniforming and it's SM. If you think all we do is worry about uniforming and don't have any fun, you are greatly mistaken. We started two years ago (September, 07) with 6 boys, and are now up to 25. We had 22 go to Summer Camp and earn over 70 Merit Badges, go on two whitewater rafting trips, and had 4 boys earn the Mile Swim. The three boys who didn't go to camp - one was in Germany on a school program, one was in India on a family trip, and the other was visiting his dad in Maryland (divorced parents). Lack of participation is not an issue for us. This year, we went on a 4 day, 3 night canoe trip in the Okefenokee Swamp, backpacking on the Appalachian Trail, caving in northwest Georgia, horseback riding in Tennessee, rifle shooting at my gun club, attended the district camporee, whitewater rafting and went through a 3-day Northern Tier prep trip. The older boys have nearly 30 nights camping over the last 12 months, including Summer Camp, NYLT and OA Ordeal. We are headed to Northern Tier for a 10-day trip later this month. I'll stack our boys' adventure up with any Troop's. We wear our uniform shirts on all trips. If we stop at a rest stop, we look like a Scout Troop. It is easy to spot the boys in a crowd and locate them. This becomes habit and we don't have problems with "I didn't know if we were supposed to wear them on this trip." Consistency is a key to achieving good uniforming. While I could care less about your uniforming, the question still remains - how come some Troops can achieve good uniforming, while others can't? That is the question we should be answering and discussing.

Hal, Character is defined as having moral or ethical strength. When we join the BSA we agree to live by its policies, rules and regs. The rules and regs state the Official uniform can't be altered or changed. The Official Uniform consists of the Scout shirt, pants, belt and socks. Hat and neckerchief are optional. The Official Policy on Uniforming is listed on the inside cover of the Insignia Guide. It states "The leaders of Scouting - both volunteer and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occassions." So you have two Scouts, both know what the official uniform is, both know the policy. One is dressed in the complete correct uniform, the other is wearing just the Scout shirt, blue jeans, white socks, no belt. In your opinion, do both of these boys have the same degree of character? For the sake of this argument, please don't run down the "cost" rabbit hole. To end that argument, the Scout in the jeans is wearing brand new designer jeans and $100 tennis shoes.