BrentAllen

I missed one point. Gern wrote " They must substitute a troop designed uniform, one that only the troop has and no other BSA member." Any Troop can use their own t-shirt or buy the Action shirt from Scoutstuff.org. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=APPAREL&c3=ASHIRTS&c4=&lv=3&item=615ASL This is the shirt our first-year Scouts were wearing to Mountain Man at Woodruff. The other leaders were commenting on how nice the shirt was, and asked where we got it. I was surprised to hear their questions - we got them off the rack at our Scout Shop, and they are available for Scoutstuff.org, for a princely sum of $15. So Gern, any BSA member can buy and wear them. We get the wicking t-shirts from the local Army Navy surplus store, and have them printed with our Troop logo. Now, please tell me your understanding of the Uniform Method. How does your unit use the Uniform Method to achieve the Aims and Mission of the BSA?

Hal, The BSA used to describe and differentiate the uniforms as Field and Activity. They now use the terms Official and Activity, which is a little odd to me, since the Activity Uniform is also an Official uniform. See http://www.boyscouttrail.com/uniforms.asp for more info. Gern, I admit no such thing. The new supplex nylon shirt can be used for camping, we just choose to use the other officially authorized option. Most organizations have a "dress" uniform and another for activities - think USMC dress blues vs. BDUs. We use the same idea with our Scouting uniforms. This ain't rocket science. I would argue every one of the points on the side of GBB. The boys have a feeling of pride in our Troop, a sense of belonging to our Troop family. I believe much of that comes from the uniforming (BELONGING). The quarterly Honor Patrol competition includes uniforming and attendance. The boys don't want to let their Patrol mates down by showing up out of uniform. He tries to do his best (IDEALS). Our boys come from extreme ranges of income - extremely rich to divorced single-parent families, some struggling. They all wear the same uniform - no one can tell which end of the spectrum they come from (DEMOCRACY). As I have explained above, our Activity Uniform is great for camping. The materials dry out quickly. No cotton (ENJOYMENT). The boys love recieving their badges at COHs, and love wearing their MB sashes. The uniform is one of the strongest pieces in promoting ADVANCEMENT. Members of our community will bend over backwards to help a Scout with a project. Whether it is selling popcorn or collecting food, a Scout will be much more successful if he is in Uniform when doing so. (SERVICE) If a Scout earns his own money to buy his Uniform, he will take much more pride in it. He will treat is with more respect - he knows if he trashes it, he will need to buy another one. It is a constant reminder of his THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE, as opposed to a monthly trip he took. Knowing they need to tuck their shirt in and wear the belt properly teaches them GOOD GROOMING, much more so than wearing an untucked shirt over some gym shorts. Can't never could.

Gern, I know our council has a program to provide uniforms to families that really can't afford them. For most boys, it comes down to choice - and character. Does he want that new XBox 360 game, or a pair of Switchbacks? Uniforming goes beyond just the Field Uniform. When we go camping, every Scout is in his Field Uniform shirt with his Troop t-shirt on underneath, along with Switchbacks or other Scout pants. As soon as we arrive at camp, the Field Uniform shirts come off and are hung in the vehicles - no need to mess them up. The boys are now in their Activity Uniform - Switchbacks and Troop t-shirt (wicking, not cotton). They have their long-sleeve BSA Action shirt as well. Green and tan. When the trip is over, the Field Uniform shirts go back on for the trip home. The Troop is Uniform. It's so simple, but some make it out to be impossible! The Supplex nylon pants, the wicking t-shirts, the nylon Action shirt are all made for the outdoors. They are some of the best camping clothes you can get, for the money. Cost: Switchbacks - $50, or $25 each with they were BOGO Troop wicking t-shirt - $15 BSA Action shirt - $15 Field Uniform shirt - $35 - $40 BSA Green socks - $6 Our Scouts easily get two years wear out of uniform, wearing it weekly. That is around $130 (most expensive from list above) for clothing for a two-year uniform, in a program that has a registration fee of $10. That breaks down to around $1.25/week. Show me any program that is this affordable. Most sports programs cost this much or more, and last only a couple of months. Cost is just an excuse. But hey, take the same attitude of that other Scoutmaster in NY. Can't never could.

BadenP writes:"The uniform does not shape the youth" Sure it does - it teaches them to take some pride in the way they look, the way they present themselves. I don't know of any Scout that is "regularly" ridiculed, but they most likely will be at some point in their Scouting careers. When we visited Scouting units in South Africa, the Scouts there, boy youth and adults, were very impressed with our uniforms. The boys would gather around me and my son and ask questions about everything on them. Their opinion was our uniforms looked very sharp, very impressive. Once again, I'll defer to Green Bar Bill: The Values of the Scout Uniform 1. The Scout Uniform gives the boy a true sense of BELONGING. It submerges his self and makes him group conscious of his Patrol, his Troop, and the Boy Scout Movement. 2. It provides for true DEMOCRACY. With all boys in Uniform, the external differences between poor boys and rich boys disappear. 3. It continuously and persistently brings to the boy's mind the SCOUT IDEALS for which the Uniform stands and reminds him that he has promised to do his best. 4. It adds to the boy's ENJOYMENT of Scouting. The very design of the Uniform makes it possible for him to play the game strenuously, the way boys want to play. 5. It encourages ADVANCEMENT. A boy seeing Badges and Insignia blossoming forth upon the Uniform of a chum or member of his Patrol will want to earn them for himself. 6. It gives added opportunity for SERVICE. The Scout in Uniform is chosen for civic service projects before the Scout without one, because the Uniform itself adds to the boy's effectiveness in performing many services. 7. Earning the money with which to secure the Scout Uniform teaches a boy the invaluable lessons of THRIFT and PERSEVERANCE. 8. The ultimate acquisition of the Uniform establishes in a boy the feeling and sense of worthy OWNERSHIP, and encourages neatness and GOOD GROOMING. Green Bar Bill, Scoutmaster Handbook Argue with him, if you like.

Who cares? Our founder certainly did. To quote him: "Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader." Lord Baden-Powell "The correct wearing of the uniform and the smartness of turn-out of the individual Scout depends largely on his pride in himself and his Troop. This can be largely developed by the Patrol Leader encouraging his Patrol to outshine its neighbors in these respects, and each fellow plays the game to the best of his ability for the honor of the Patrol." Lord Baden-Powell (uniforming ties in with Patrol Method) Who else? Green Bar Bill. "WEAR THE CORRECT UNIFORM CORRECTLY!" "I recognize fully the values of the Uniform to my boys and my Troop," says the Scoutmaster, "and there is nothing in the world that I would rather see than every one of them smartly uniformed." "Some time ago, two Scoutmasters started two Troops in South Brooklyn, NY, one of the poorest districts of that great metropolis. One had the attitude: "These boys are too poor to get the Uniform." He found that sentiment echoed in the Troop. The attitude of the other was: "We want to get the Uniform, don't we?" and the unanimous answer of his boys was "Yeah!" After one year the first Scoutmaster had a Troop without a single boy in Uniform, while the other after one-half year had his Troop completely uniformed." Green Bar Bill Scoutmaster Handbook, 3rd Edition

Lisa, Sounds to me like they were in full correct uniform - for summer camp, in their Activity Uniforms. As has been mentioned many times before, uniforming is one of our methods. This is usually mentioned as an excuse for why a Troop isn't in full uniform. I take it at a different tack - I take it to mean your Troop looks uniform, whether it be in Field (Class A) or Activity (Class B) uniform. There are several reasons for and benefits of having this attitude, as well as lessons. If a Scout forgets his belt or socks or whatever, is he just as likely to forget some vital piece of equipment on a wilderness adventure? The Army used to have the policy that if one member of a platoon forget a piece of equipment/uniform, they all had to leave it behind. For instance, if in winter the uniform called for gloves but someone forgot theirs, they all had to go without gloves. We don't take uniforming to that extreme, but there are similar lessons we are trying to teach - discipline, following directions, being prepared, making sure you have what you need, taking care of your equipment. These are all spin-offs from the uniforming method. Unfortunately, those of us who believe in this use of the method are simply labeled Uniform Police and written off as old frumps.

eisley, The council program is a joint effort between the council and a private operator. I'm guessing the private operater provides most, if not all, of the staffing and equipment for the whitewater program. Your council wouldn't need to train and acquire staff to add a similar program, just hook up with a qualified, reputable company. I'm sure a local company would love the extra business. Offering Whitewater Merit Badge would be a popular program, I would think.

"But I do chuckle at those who judge a book by its cover." Would that include those who automatically assume a Troop with correct uniforming has it forced on them by the adults?

eisley, Our council started requiring the Scouts to wear helmets on the Nantahala this year. You could spot the Boy Scouts on the river because they were the only ones wearing them. Not a bad idea, and the boys didn't seem to mind at all. Helmets are standard on the Ocoee. Here are a few photos of how NOT to go over the Nantahala Falls (Class III). http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/ThumbPage.aspx?e=4822273&s=175 This boat was right in front of us, complete capsize (top row, photos 178 - 182). Everyone was fine. The exit point is just below the falls. Our boat is following - the boys are all looking forward at the other rafters in the water (183, 184). Camp Woodruff offers a Whitewater Challenge program at Summer Camp - Five Days, Five Rivers. This is for older boys, and is an all-day program, so these boys don't earn any MBs (other than Whitewater) or participate in other camp activities. For more info, go to http://wsr.atlantabsacamp.org/downloads/wsr/WoodruffProgramOverview-WWaterChallenge-030109-2.pdf

Our SE mentioned this at the SM Supper at summer camp. They plan to have whitewater rafting on the New and Gauley Rivers, which are supposed to be fantastic rafting rivers. I believe these purchases (Fayette Co., WV and Goshen, VA)are part of the reason for the annual dues increase from $10 to $15. With the addition of a fourth national high adventure base, I guess the HA Triple Crown will change to what? A Quadruple Crown?

eisely, This is what I posted on the other thread, before I read yours: From current BSA Safety Afloat: 6. Skill Proficiency All participants in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. (a) For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. Additional information for white water activities: American Whitewater Guidelines The following guidelines, adapted from the American Whitewater Safety Code, are geared especially for Scouting-related whitewater activities and are an excellent supplement to the SAfety Afloat guidelines. 1.Be a competent swimmer Being a safe whitewater boater does not require Olympian swimming skills, but you should be comfortable and competent in the water and be able to handle yourself underwater. 2.Wear a personal flotation device (PFD) A properly fitted vest-type PFD offers back and shoulder protection as well as the flotation needed to swim safely in whitewater. 3.Wear a solid, correctly fitted helmet A helmet is essential in kayaks or covered canoes and is recommended for open canoeists using thigh straps and rafters running steep drops. 4.Keep your boat under control Your skills should be sufficiently developed to enable you to stop or get to shore before reaching danger. Do not enter a rapid unless you are reasonably sure that you can run it safely or swim it without injury. 5.Be aware of river hazards Whitewater rivers present many hazards, such as high water of very cold water, strainers (brush or trees in the water), dams, ledges, holes, undercut rocks, or places where broaching (hitting an obstacle broadside) is likely. If you do not think you can boat around a hazard, get out and walk. 6.Avoid Boating Alone The recommended minimum party is three people in at least two craft. 7.Know the limits of your boating ability Do not attempt rivers or rapids that require paddling skills more advanced than those you possess 8.Know how to self-rescue Learn and practice self-rescue techniques such as recovering from a capsize. 9.Be trained in rescue skills Be able to perform CPR and first aid, including being able to recognize and treat hypothermia. 10.Be suitable equipped and prepared for emergencies ■Wear shoes that protect your feet. ■Carry a throw rope, knife, whistle, and waterproof matches. ■Tie your glasses on. ■Bring duct tape on short runs and a full repair kit on isolated rivers. ■Do not wear bulky clothing that could get waterlogged and hinder your ability to swim. 11.Be responsible for your own safety ■Make thoughtful and responsible decisions about whether to participate in a trip. ■Choose appropriate equipment. ■Scout all rapids first and use your best judgment to decide whether to run or portage. ■Evaluate your own and your group's safety on an ongoing basis. Speak with anyone whose actions on the water are dangerous, whether the person is a part of your group or not. For more information about whitewater safety and to view the complete American Whitewater Safety Code, visit www.americanwhitewater.org When we go whitewater rafting as part of the Summer Camp program, we get instruction from the guides, mainly about "nose and toes" and don't try to stand up in the river, grab the rope - not the bag, never let go of the t-grip, etc. On the Nantahala, most of the few deaths that have occured over the years (non-Scouting) have been from foot traps. The Summer Camp staff also offer a "guide" class for adults about basic stern strokes, positioning, navigation, how to run the Class III's at the bottom. I think they do a very good job, and the whitewater trips are usually the highlights of the week. The older Scouts (3rd year and older) get to run the Ocoee, fully guided. We got instruction about "nose and toes", grab the rope - not the bag, keep the t-grip, paddle together, high side, etc. Our raft wasn't in the greatest of shape, and we had a fairly new guide, which made for a wet ride. Just about everyone ended up in the river at one time or another. I awarded a few Class IV Rapid Swimmer MBs at our COH, as they were well earned. The boys can't wait to get back to camp next summer and run it again. Yes, there is some risk to the sport and it is not for everyone. I do not feel it is a hazardous risk, and it is probably safer than travelling on the highway. The boys sure love it.

All whitewater trips require a guide? I hope not. A river like the Nantahala, basically a Class I & II, with 2 Class III rapids at the end, isn't a difficult river to run. At Summer Camp, we run guide-assisted trips with the younger boys, with guides in roughly 1 out of 3 boats. After a couple of trips down the river, you have it pretty well figured out. It is a good river to teach the boys to steer on. I think requiring all Troops to hire guides to run that river would be overkill. The older boys at Summer Camp get to run the Ocoee, which is Class III and IVs all the way down. Pretty intense river, lots of fun (the upper Ocoee was site of the 1996 Olympic Whitewater events). All boats have guides, and I wouldn't run it without guides. From current BSA Safety Afloat: 6. Skill Proficiency All participants in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures. (a) For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist. Additional information for white water activities: American Whitewater Guidelines The following guidelines, adapted from the American Whitewater Safety Code, are geared especially for Scouting-related whitewater activities and are an excellent supplement to the SAfety Afloat guidelines. 1.Be a competent swimmer Being a safe whitewater boater does not require Olympian swimming skills, but you should be comfortable and competent in the water and be able to handle yourself underwater. 2.Wear a personal flotation device (PFD) A properly fitted vest-type PFD offers back and shoulder protection as well as the flotation needed to swim safely in whitewater. 3.Wear a solid, correctly fitted helmet A helmet is essential in kayaks or covered canoes and is recommended for open canoeists using thigh straps and rafters running steep drops. 4.Keep your boat under control Your skills should be sufficiently developed to enable you to stop or get to shore before reaching danger. Do not enter a rapid unless you are reasonably sure that you can run it safely or swim it without injury. 5.Be aware of river hazards Whitewater rivers present many hazards, such as high water of very cold water, strainers (brush or trees in the water), dams, ledges, holes, undercut rocks, or places where broaching (hitting an obstacle broadside) is likely. If you do not think you can boat around a hazard, get out and walk. 6.Avoid Boating Alone The recommended minimum party is three people in at least two craft. 7.Know the limits of your boating ability Do not attempt rivers or rapids that require paddling skills more advanced than those you possess 8.Know how to self-rescue Learn and practice self-rescue techniques such as recovering from a capsize. 9.Be trained in rescue skills Be able to perform CPR and first aid, including being able to recognize and treat hypothermia. 10.Be suitable equipped and prepared for emergencies ■Wear shoes that protect your feet. ■Carry a throw rope, knife, whistle, and waterproof matches. ■Tie your glasses on. ■Bring duct tape on short runs and a full repair kit on isolated rivers. ■Do not wear bulky clothing that could get waterlogged and hinder your ability to swim. 11.Be responsible for your own safety ■Make thoughtful and responsible decisions about whether to participate in a trip. ■Choose appropriate equipment. ■Scout all rapids first and use your best judgment to decide whether to run or portage. ■Evaluate your own and your group's safety on an ongoing basis. Speak with anyone whose actions on the water are dangerous, whether the person is a part of your group or not. For more information about whitewater safety and to view the complete American Whitewater Safety Code, visit www.americanwhitewater.org

Reality check here, Beavah. We have discussed ad nauseum the fact that Scouting isn't cool, as determined by the self-appointed deciders of coolness. Changing the uniform isn't going to change that fact. Chasing a "cool uniform" is about as productive as a snipe hunt. It takes character to be in Scouting - as a youth, you are most likely going to get ridiculed at some point in your Scouting career. If a youth is active in his religious organization, he will probably get ridiculed for that as well. Do we let those self-appointed deciders of coolness determine what we are going to do with our lives? Hopefully not. It takes character to be in Scouting. It takes even more character to wear the uniform correctly. Just my humble opinion, of course.

Gern, I don't give them any "WB babble" about uniforming. I do point out the differences between a correctly uniformed Troop and one that isn't whenever possible, like at flags at Summer Camp or Camporee. The boys see a big difference. The SPL takes it upon himself to remind boys to tuck in shirts. The PLs take it upon themselves to push their patrols to be in correct uniform. Our SPL and all PLs attended NYLT this summer, and came back believing even more in the full uniform. We have high esprit de corps right now. Our Troop was the only one singing cadences on the way to and from flags at Summer Camp (other than staff). I never taught them any, and I never asked them to do it. The older boys learned them at NYLT and introduced them to the Troop. They were also the only Troop cooking in camp, and I let them know it. Again, this is totally their decision. One of our new Scouts went to the Dining Hall with the other boys to make sandwhiches for the river trip the next day. He came back and told me he was so glad we were cooking in camp. He didn't want any part of that crowded Dining Hall which smelled heavily of Clorox (disinfecting for swine flu). The boys are very much in charge of our Troop. I did suggest to our SPL that the Troop go to our Activity (Class B) uniform for the summer. He discussed it with the PLC and they agreed. The boys have all been showing up in their Troop t-shirts, Scout shorts, belts, and yes, even Scout socks. The boys police themselves and I don't say a thing about uniforms at meetings. They do know they need to be in full uniform for a BOR. BTW, we include having their Scout Book with them to be considered in full uniform. We added this to the program after having several boys show up for BORs without their books. One of our committee members is a senior Scouter with over 30 years as an SM, and he won't conduct the BOR if they don't have their book. I agree completely with him, so we discussed the problem at PLC and came up with a solution.

So Gern, was your son wearing his uniform when he staffed NYLT? Was he wearing his uniform for his ECOH? Was he wearing his uniform when he escorted the Medal of Honor recipient? I bet he was. I'd say he has the character the BSA is looking for. Lisa - the Scouts of other countries wear the uniform of their country. I have no problem with that. Wear the uniform of your country, and wear it correctly. Those countries probably have disgruntled Scouters saying, "If only they'd get rid of the necker, we'd have a lot more Scouts...." Socks. Are we really crying about socks? One of the dad's in our Pack was in Scouting in England. He tells about having to polish his shoes, have his uniform pressed, brass polished. Cry me a river over the socks....

So Gern, exactly why would those miscreants want to join us if we got rid of the uniforms? Because they secretly subscribe to our Oath and Law but just can't stand the uniforms?? Because they honestly believe in our Patrol Method and boy-led philosophy, but just can't force themselves to be seen in public in a Boy Scout uniform?? Because they believe in service to others but wouldn't be caught dead in a Class A?? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. A more believable explanation to me is those who don't join us because of a uniform are missing something very important to the BSA - character. Those boys can go join in on an REI family adventure to get their camping kick.

Eamonn, We would become only a camping club - and nothing more. Troops would have to come up with thier own dress codes, so boys wouldn't wear inappropriate t-shirts. Boys would still need clothes to camp in, without messing up nicer clothes needed for school. We would lose much of our identity. Imagine Troops marching in parades (as many in our community are doing this 4th of July) or participating in flag ceremonies without uniforms. I don't think it would be a pretty sight. What is the deal with blue jeans? Only greenhorn rookies wear blue jeans camping. That is one of the first things I tell our new Scouts - and I don't want to see a pair on a camping trip. They weigh a ton when wet and take forever to dry. In cold wet weather, they are a hypothermia accident waiting to happen. This isn't just my opinion, read your Boy Scout Handbook (pg. 205). A pair of Levi's is going to cost you $25 - $30. Is a pair of Supplex Nylon Switchbacks, which are made for the outdoors, really that much more? Our Scouts are getting two-years worth of wear out of them, with weekly wear, so they look like a very good value to me. Plus you get two pieces of clothing in one - shorts and long-pants. How can that not be a bargain? Besides, can't we encourage our Scouts to earn the money to buy their own uniforms? Or make them birthday or holiday gifts? My son's NYLT Course. Good uniforming. http://www.aacnylt.org/Troop%20Pics%202009/blue%20week%20one%2009.JPG Eamonn, imagine the boys in that picture without uniforms. What a mess.

A couple of others to take when the opportunity arises: Wilderness First Aid - required for some High Adventure programs, a big jump over basic First Aid courses. Powder Horn - introduction to putting together High Adventure trips, lots of fun.

Stosh, I suggest your Troop wear your program as a badge of honor, and praise them for it constantly. Don't run down the other Troop while doing this, just recognize the differences between your Troop's program and that of "other Troops." At Summer Camp, ours was the only Troop cooking in camp that week. This is a decision made entirely by the boys, and they love it. We had leaders from other Troops visiting our site to see how we did it, telling us that is where they wanted their Troop to be. They asked if their SPL and PLs could come visit with our youth leaders and get a tour of camp and equipment, see menus, duty rosters, etc. I passed this on to the entire Troop and let them know what a great job they were doing. We wear that Summer Camp camping tradition as a huge badge of honor. When recruiting, we let the prospects and their parents know we have a very challenging program, that we expect a lot from the Scouts in terms of attendance and participation. I do my best to scare away the part-timers who have only a passing interest in Scouting. We judge our program solely on quality, not quantity. We let the boys and parents know that because we run such a challenging program, they will get to participate in more exciting trips sooner than they would in other Troops. That is the pay-off for the challenging program. How many older boys are in the other Troop you mention? If they are truly as adult-led as you say, they most likely don't have many older boys active in the program. The older boys tend to leave if they don't have any role in running the program. If that is the case, point that out to the parents. And that would be my final suggestion, make sure you have good communication with your parents. They need to fully understand and buy into your program. If they see the value of your approach over the other Troop, they will keep their sons from leaving. If they don't see the value, they won't see any difference and won't see a reason for their son to stay.

I defer to someone with far more experience on the subject - Green Bar Bill. "Leadership, then, is the ability and disposition to inspire confidence in others, over a period of time, and to cause them to act and think in the way the leader desires them to act and to think. The quality of leadership is partly born in a person but is also largley determined by training and development. The only way a boy can develop leadership is by practicing it. It is usually true that leaders exceed those in their group in almost every characteristic. But it is just as true that leadership is partly a product of the group in which it operates. The group's expectation stimulates the leader." The characteristics he mentions preceeded that paragraph, being personality and popularity, physique and health, age, tenure in Scouting, intelligence and Scoutcraft knowledge, initiative and energy, common sense and self-control, helpfulness. The next section is "Determining Leadership Ability" I'll try to add some of that section to the discussion as time allows. To add my answer to the question, how will you know until they are given a chance?

Ours is a correctly uniformed Troop. It has become part of our culture, and the boys enforce it - I don't have to say a thing at meetings. When prospective Scouts visit, I point out to them and their parents what is expected in uniforming. To me, it is just showing proper respect to wear the uniform properly. It is part of my vision for the Troop, as well. I'm from the old school that believes it is hard for the boys to act like a Troop if they don't look like a Troop. We have adopted the BSA long-sleeve Action shirt as part of our Class B uniform (scoutldr, this is a lost cause - summer camp & NYLT staff continue to use the terms). We have our own tan Troop t-shirt (wicking 100% polyester, no less) as well. At Summer Camp last week, the other adult leaders wanted to know how we got the boys to "look like a Troop" by wearing the same shirts, Scouts pants, etc,... I made an appeal to the parents to buy the shirts and let them be their son's "camping clothes." Then they would never have to worry about their son messing up some nice shirt or pants they bought for school use. The parents supported me on the issue, and the boys love the pants and shirts. (The other leaders also wanted to know where we got the shirts - at our local Scout Shop) Does Troop uniforming help in other areas? I believe it does. All of our first-year Scouts took Swimming MB at Summer Camp. I went down to the water front on Thursday to take pictures of the boys going through the survival skills - inflating shirts, pants,... After they had all completed the requirements, the counselors asked me if I was the SM. I said I was, not sure what was coming next. They said they wanted to thank me and let me know this was the first group that had all come to class as required, each with their own shirt and pants. Proper uniforming also helps a lot with esprit de corps, which I think is missing in many units today.

Trev, Not so sure why that should be considered lucky, but regardless, does a cousin count as family in your book? It does in mine, and count me among that group. That still doesn't change my mind on the central issue.

Now, now, Gern. Don't go putting words in my mouth, either. I didn't say Cheney was against it, I said his position wasn't clear. I may be combining the "what" with the "how" in saying he isn't clear, whereas Dan sees the "what" as clear and the "how" as unclear. Fair enough.

Dan, About as clear as mud to me. First he says people should have the freedom to enter into any type of union. Then he says that freedom shouldn't be protected at a national level. Then he says it is a state issue. Then, he says everyone "should get a shot at that." What does that mean? Does it mean it should come up for a vote before the people of each state? Does it mean every state should allow it? Is he going to lobby for it in his state? If he thinks it is such a good thing, why doesn't he think it should be allowed across the country?

I agree on the image issue. Most out there just don't know who we are and what we really do. Our paper runs the photo and a bio when a local Scout earns Eagle, but I'm not sure many know the jargon. We have a couple of nice parks here, so we might look into a "Scouts in Action" demo or expo. Our annual Dunwoody 4th of July Parade is themed this year "A Gathering of Eagles." The Ducote family, which included 8 sons who all earned Eagle, will be the grand marshalls. The parade organizers are inviting all Eagle Scouts in the community to come to the front of the parade and walk behind the grand marshalls. A group of Korean War vets are coming up from Florida to make a special presentation to the Ducote family (most of the 8 boys are in the services) and afterwards, the Eagles will all renew their Oath. Another part of the parade program involves the spectators bringing canned food for the food bank, with Scouts picking it up along the route. Trucks carry it to the finish. One of the larger Troops sells bar-b-que at the end of the route as a fundraiser. Several Troops will be part of the parade. This is supposedly the largest 4th of July parade in Georgia, with 2,500 participants and over 28,000 spectators. It is a nice small-town parade in the suburbs of Atlanta. All that just lets the community know we are here, but it really doesn't say much about what we do most of the time. At least it is a good image.