BrentAllen

Ed, Yes, Ed, we set a high standard and expect a lot from the Scouts in our Troop. You don't in your Troop? In our Troop, they would have a hard time fitting in. The Scouts keep score for the Honor Patrol competition, so a Scout without a uniform would cost his patrol dearly. He would also have a hard time going on any trips, since we do require the uniform when traveling. Remember, the "no adding to the requirements" is in regard to advancement. But playing your little game, if we did have a boy that joined without a uniform and a book, I guess he could be a Scout forever. If he wanted to advance, he would need a book. You know, reading the requirements and learning the material. All found in the book. We check off the requirements in the Scout's book as he completes them, so he, his parents, and the leaders know where he is on the next rank. Again, kind of hard to do without a book. The instructions for the SM Conference in the SM HB even mention reviewing the requirements for the next rank. Kind of hard to do without a book. Now, I've never met a Scout who didn't own a uniform or a book - have you? So, how many times have you informed the Scouts in your Troop that they don't need a uniform or a book?

Ed, None are even close?? How many people are killed in DUI accidents (alcohol) every year? Thousands more than are killed by "assault weapons." How many more people are killed in non-DUI accidents every year? Thousands more than are killed by "assault weapons." How about the really evil weapons, the full-auto machine guns? How many people have been killed by someone with a legally owned full-auto maching gun? Since 1934, there have been 2 homicides. One, ironically, was by a police officer using his MAC-11 to kill a police informant. Rocket launchers are explosives. I don't read the Second Amendment to include explosives, but I do read it to include firearms. So, why restrict something with a track record like that? BTW, criminals prefer concealable large caliber handguns, which are not assault weapons. Studies of the guns used in homicides show that large caliber revolvers are the most frequent type of gun used in homicides - again, these are not assault weapons. No need to let the facts get in the way of feel-good legislation, right?

Beavah, Read the frickin' post: "All that initiative, innovation, and invention was done without the government." The government wasn't there funding the projects when any of those were born. Well, maybe Gatorade, but the funding could have come from athletic boosters, for all I know. And you can twist it all you want about the Iphone, but I don't think Apple was working on a government contract at the time. On the contrary, let's look at machine guns. Since the government outlawed civilian design and manufacturing, the US hasn't produced one that met with any success. The government killed the initiative, innovation and invention. Now we have to buy the best designs from foreign corporations. BTW, your lecture is no different than the "partisan squabblin'" you accuse us of. If you don't like it, scroll on by.

Hal, You are missing the point. They were civilians working for themselves or corporations. There was no guarantee the government was going to purchase the weapons. Stoner worked for ArmaLite, he designed the AR-15. Yes, the government purchased plenty of them, but that's not we are talking about. We are talking about inventions.

skeptic, Most of the weapons I covet were invented by citizens. John Browning invented most of them, Eugene Stoner the others. It was civilians pushing the envelope on rifle and machine gun design. Unfortunately, that all ended in 1986 when civilians were prevented from manufacturing firearms. Now, we have to rely on foreign design and invention (FN and HK).

Hal, Let me help you out. I believe these were all invented without government assistance. The light bulb the telephone Automobiles Airplanes Machine guns Iphones Beer Wine Coca-cola Gatorade The Chicken Sandwhich (Chik-fil-A) Baseball, football, etc. Just a few.

CMM, In our Troop, the Scout is expected to have his Scout book for a SM conference or BOR. This shouldn't be a problem for them, as we don't consider a Scout in full uniform (for Honor Patrol contest) unless they have their book with them. At the SM Conference, I review the book with them to make sure everything is signed off and they are ready for the BOR. If you think memorizing the Scout Oath and Law are important parts of Scout Spirit, then yes, the Scout should know them. I happen to agree with that sentiment, and I wouldn't sign off if I knew they didn't have them memorized. We start each meeting with the Pledge, Oath and Law, so they should have it down. I don't ask beyond the Tenderfoot requirement, but if I had reason to believe they had forgotten it, I would ask.

"it's a great feather in the cap of Illinois" As a very naive 13 year-old, I felt the same way about Carter. But then reality happened.

Hal, Sure, that happened in 1781, but there was a lot of fighting between 1775 and 1781. Even at the very beginning, the patriots used sniper fire to attack the British as they left Concord. Washington's attack on Trenton relied on the infantry, as much of that battle was fought in the town, house to house. A good infantryman could load and fire three shots in a minute - not too bad, in my book.

Yes, Bush inherited a surplus - that lasted until 9/11. How short our memories are. No airline traffic for how many days? Bush asked us to spend money to keep the economy moving. The dems howled about that - but now are suggesting the same thing. Reaganomics dead? That's a good one! He was the last great president this country had! Remember what he inherited from that glorious president from my home state. Double digit inflation, incredibly high interest rates... unfortunatly, I think President Obama is taking us back there, again. Carter II. Now that is scary! What have we done in our household? Went through Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University at our church. Paying off debt, saving up emergency fund, switched to a high deductible health insurance plan with a Health Savings Account. My wife and I both work in positions with pensions - we will draw 60% of our salaries at retirement. As safe as that should be, we aren't counting on it solely. Funding retirement plans, college education. The market has always come back, but we've never been in this political environment before. Obama's green plans are going to drive industry out of this country, with the corresponding increase in energy costs. His own team admits energy costs are going to increase, at 10 - 15% on the downside. Manufacturing will move overseas to avoid this "green tax." Add that in with trillion dollar deficits and we are going to be just like the unemployed, over-extended homeowner in a house they can't afford - in foreclosure. Either that, or they are going to keep printing so much money that inflation will eventually kill us. The budget proposals from Obama and the House are totally irresponsible. Instead of reducing spending like any of us would do when we are over-extended, they are acting like drunken sailors on payday. Or that homeowner with an inflated appraisal and a home equity loan they just acquired. God help us.

BadenP, You should know this by now - drinking and typing don't mix. Or is this another case of "my roommate used my password?" Either way, I needed a good laugh before church this morning - thanks. If you outlaw "assault weapons" only outlaws will have them. Do you think they are going to turn them in? Felons are already breaking the law by havning possession of them. The only people the ban would affect would be law-abiding citizens, get it? TheScout, How did we ever win the Revolutionary War with such bad weapons, as BadenP claims we had? Another history scholar.

MileHigh, TheScout beat me to the punch. You really need to study your history. Automatic weapons could be purchased up until 1986 - study your history. Yes, all those soldiers who couldn't shoot had to be taught. The army called on the civilians who were excellent marksmen to train them. Study your history. The minutemen had what would have been labeled assault weapons at the time. Study your history. Hal, The M1's I believe were part of the earlier list of weapons declared "assault weapons" because they had been used as an infantry weapon. I do have M1's with flash suppresors on them - see the M1D and M1C.

Ed, Spoken like a true liberal gun grabber. Why does anyone need a large flat screen tv? Why does anyone need a Corvette? Why does anyone need alcohol? Why does anyone need an SUV? Why does anyone need a big house? Why does anyone need more than one phone in their house? Why does anyone need more than one child? Why does anyone need anything? When you start letting the government tell you what you need, you don't want to see where you will end up. By the way, Ted Kennedy has killed more people with his car than I have killed with any of my "assualt weapons." So, who should have something taken away? Did you know that World War II M1 Garands (that I happen to collect) are classified as "assault weapons?" Yep, a rifle built for use in the 1940's is classified as an "assault weapon" because it is semi-automatic and has an evil bayonet lug on it. How ridiculous is that? Many veterans from WWII have purchased these rifles, the rifle they carried into battle. But the government wants to make them illegal. So, why should an law-abiding citizen want to own an "assault weapon?" Because our forefathers owned them in 1776. And that made all the difference.

I have defended George Bush many a time, but one thing he was definitely wrong on was the bailout bill. He admitted he ignored the free market principals when he pushed that bill. Now that we have started saving businesses and industries that are "too big to fail" we have apparently headed down a one-way path. No business is too big to fail. Those companies should have been allowed to fail and reorganize. Maybe then some people would learn their lessons. Not now. The federal government has ended up like a parent dealing with a trouble teenager. The more you enable them with their bad habits and destructive behaviour, the more you end up hurting them in the long run. Why should any big business worry about getting over-extended, or taking risky chances? Good ol' federal government will come bail you out. scoutingagain, I refer you to the 1994 Republican Revolution. The AWB was a major reason for the revolt. Clinton admitted it himself. You may not be aware of the importance of the issue, based on your state of residence. I would prefer going through a period of anarchy to end up living in freedom over this painful slide into socialism. Our founding fathers were willing to risk everything they had, including their lives, for freedom. Now we are willing to hand it over to save our 401k's.

$800 million for carbon capture projects $3 million for new uniforms for the Transportation Security Administration. $200,000 for a "tattoo removal violence prevention outreach program" $2.8 billion to global warming advocacy programs $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts $400 million promotes anti-smoking programs and programs to fight sexually transmitted diseases I want Obama to fail in reenacting the Assault Weapons Ban that expired in 2004. I want my country to remain free. I value freedom much more than I do financial security.

Ed, No, he made the comment about no earmarks in the recovery bill on Tuesday, as in this past Tuesday, as in a couple of days ago. He said he was proud we passed the recovery bill without any earmarks. Give me a break. If you or Beavah want to argue that earmarks are different from pork, knock yourselves out. He is playing with words just like Clinton did, and I expect more from the person holding the highest office in the country. Change we can believe it, right? I'm doing my best to give the guy a chance, and he is blowing it at every turn. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Proud of no earmarks. How about coming up with a bill that you can say you are proud there wasn't any pork in??

Hal, How did Bush, as governor of Texas, cherry pick the intelligence President Bill Clinton was seeing? "The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again." 12/16/98 President Bill Clinton

Stosh, I'm not interested in "gotcha" but I'm very concerned about someone reading this forum and thinking they can take Webelos out canoeing. The G2SS is very clear on this, and no, I didn't add the part in parenthesis about it applying to Webelos - that is the way it appears in the book. Take a look yourself. The BSA deliberately pointed out this applied to Webelos. Why do you think the BSA came up with the Tour Permit? Partly to make sure there are trained adults for the activities the boys are going to participate in (Safe Swim, Safetly Afloat, CPR, etc.). Partly to make sure the activity is appropriate for the program the boys are in. Are you saying Safe Swim and Safety Afloat didn't apply to your trip, either? RE: backyard camping. Do you think it is a good idea to require BALOO training for DLs to take their Den camping? That is one of the questions on the Tour Permit - who in the group is BALOO trained. If you were the unit leader of a Pack, would you require a DL to complete BALOO before he took his den camping in his backyard?

Yeah, Hal, I knew it wouldn't take long for one of you to bring up the WMD argument. I guess I will have to repeat for the MILLIONTH time that everyone thought they had them. That includes both Clintons (while Bill was on office), Kerry, and any other democrat who could get in front of a camera. Don't forget that also included the British and other foreign intelligence agencies. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your story, right? Bush just got tired of the UN and democrats being all bark and no bite. How many UN resolutions had Saddam violated? How many times had Clinton wagged his finger at him, but done nothing? Bush said if we are going to talk the talk, let's walk the walk. I guess you would rather have Saddam back in power, right? Where is Osama Bin Laden? Good question. I can tell you where he hasn't been. He hasn't been launching any attacks against the US. I guess we will have to see what Obama is going to do about Bin Laden. Back in the campaign, he said the number one national security issue was to kill him and crush Al-Qaede. Now he has changed that to protecting America from further attack. But Hal, you won't hold that change in policy against him like you do Bush, will you? Oct. 7, 2008: "We will kill bin Laden. We will crush al-Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national security priority." Jan. 14, 2009: "My preference obviously would be to capture or kill him," he said. "But if we have so tightened the noose that he's in a cave somewhere and can't even communicate with his operatives then we will meet our goal of protecting America." Mean what you say, say what you mean.

skeptic, No, I don't believe government is the answer to all problems. Especially economic problems. And yes, I would prefer Obama do nothing instead of driving this country into the ground with debt we'll never be able to repay. The private sector creates jobs and drives the economy, not the government (at least, not in a democtratic republic). When those in elected office think they, and only they, can fix the economy and create jobs, we just changed our form of government. Ed, I don't like people lying to me. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Do you really believe Obama when he says there weren't any earmarks in the recovery plan? This is demonstrably false. I didn't like it when Clinton lied about Monica, and I don't care to be played a fool by Obama. Does he think we are all too stupid to know the truth? As we teach the boys, it all comes down to character. What type of character is Obama showing?

If the leftover food is given out to patrol members at the end of the trip, it isn't wasted.

Huh?? Tour permits aren't required if the in-town trip is only for a few hours, such as a field trip. That exculsion doesn't apply to camping trips. See page 53 of G2SS. I was under the impression that G2SS applied to all Scouting events. Please tell me where the exception you mentioned is listed. Are there others?

skeptic, Obviously, you have no idea about the National Rifle Matches, and the Service Rifle category. Why is this important? If you study your history, you will know the reason the US was able to field an army so quickly for WWII was because we had so many civilians competent in riflery. These citizens became soldiers and instructors. Go back and read why President Theodore Roosevelt created the National Matches and the NBPRP (National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice). http://www.odcmp.com/Programs/AR/AR03/AR03H&M.pdf Secondly, the "assault weapons" they wish to ban are just semi-automatic rifles. They are not full-auto as they make the public believe (for example, see eagle77 comment above). Thirdly, why should the government tell me which type of rifles I should be able to own, as a law-abiding citizen? Our local police chief said the streets of Atlanta would be filled with bodies and the gutters would run red with blood if the AWB was allowed to expire in 2004. Well, it's been 5 years and no bodies and no blood in the gutters. Finally, if you have no problem with this plan, I guess you will have no problem when the government tells you which cars and trucks you can drive, how you must get to work (car pool or public transportation), which type pocket knife you can carry, which doctor you can see and which treatments you can receive, how much water you can use (same with gas & electricity), the list goes on and on. It's called freedom. Let me repeat - it's called freedom. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Stosh, I wasn't thinking about your trip from that angle. If it wasn't a district or council program, how did you get a Tour Permit? Canoeing isn't allowed at the Webelos level unless it is part of a district or council program. See G2SS page 9, under #6 Skill Proficiency. For Cub Scouts: Canoeing, rowboating, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) is to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats or sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices. Since your trip took place a number of years ago, maybe this policy wasn't in place at the time?

Stosh, Was that camp something you set up for your Den, or was it part of a Council program? Our council now runs a similar program at one of our council camps. When my son was in Webelos, we went camping as a Den twice in Webelos I, plus 2 trips with the Pack. When he moved up to Webelos II, we went camping with 3 Troops, plus another Den trip and a trip with the Pack. Our goal was to get the boys and the parents adjusting to the idea that Boy Scouts go camping (or outdoor activity) every month. Siblings weren't allowed. If there are several Troops nearby, a Webelos II DL can set up a camping program pretty easily - just ask the Troops if they can come visit on a trip. The Troop does all the planning, so all the WDL has to do is pass along the plans and make sure his Webelos have the needed equipment (sleeping bag, pad, clothes, etc.)