Krampus

Right but then you make statements like the one below which seem to throw those folks who don't use the on demand method under the bus. No?

Greetings from your southern neighbors.

@@Stosh, they see it. The problem is they don't know how to FIX it.

In our unit it is mainly coverage. Due to adult travel and other activities, and given the nature of some of our meetings (patrols break up to do their own thing, many times outdoors) we have to have eyeballs on things. Some of these activities require adults who are specially trained. Sometimes we have events where third parties are invited and we need adults there to manage/observe. Our unit does not simply sit in a meeting hall and talk or play games. We are out doing things which require adult coverage either for health/safety reasons (climbing, shooting, water sports, etc.) or for training purposes (advanced first aid, using tools requiring adults, etc.). I think we need to get away from this mindset if a unit doesn't do BORs on demand they are some how less boy led than if they use a more scheduled approach.

Dunno. I suspect all the other activities kids are in these days makes it harder to focus on just one thing. Society seems to look down on people who are not more diverse in their activities, rather than someone who has built deep skills in many disciplines such that Scouting offers. They see Scouting as one thing, one activity; rather than as the multitude of things it teaches that boys would need to goes to several places outside of Scouting to learn.

@@Stosh, I agree it would be easiest to say "Volunteer or we will have to find you another pack." Reality is that packs want to stay viable, districts want units to stay viable and national wants more scouts. One would think national would create an infrastructure to make the volunteer's lives easier. We all know that will never happen.

Another fun metric from BSA.

There are a few units in our area that had similar issues. One just south of you asked their CO if they could find another CO, citing their desire to eliminate the unit as a "distraction" to the CO's problems. The CO gave them permission to leave and take the gear with them. They found another temporary CO, stayed there a year and then found a permanent home a year after that. They worked with district so that they knew the unit wasn't dissolving and that they were staying within the district. I'm just south of you. If we can help in any way please let me know.

But @@Stosh, that's not reality. You have your recruiting night. Lions and Tigers show up and register. You then try to get a few of the parents to step up and run the dens. It is like pulling teeth. If you are lucky you get someone to do it. The Pack then needs to train them and help them set up their program for the Den for the year. My point is we all know -- and BSA knows -- that while this is not the optimal model, it is what most units do. Their (BSA) answer is for units to put their most experienced leader at the Lion and Tiger level, but that's unrealistic as most packs see their best leaders move on to Boy Scouts rather than stay as CS leaders. IMHO, what BSA needs to do is: Develop a training program for new leaders (especially Tiger and Lion) that teaches child and adult management. Create a pre-planned calendar of den meetings, events, activities and games that runs from the beginning of the "scout year" to the end. Have the training noted in the first bullet demonstrate how to use the tools in the second bullet point. Provide a series of online tools and official Q&A resources for new leaders. Something that is not cryptic like my.scouting.org. Something easy, mobile and fun. If they approach Lions the way they continue to approach the Tiger program, they've done nothing more than add to the problems of managing a CS program. Good luck getting the Millennial parents involved.

I hope BSA has a plan on how to recruit parent volunteers for Lions and Tigers. It is hard enough to get a Tiger DL. Hopefully they have a program developed to get and train these parents to support this new effort.

Now you are an expert on my troop? Where you live plays a huge role in how your unit functions. I know large troops (50+ scouts) in rural and suburban areas that have no issues getting adults involved. They tend to have one parent working with the other staying home. In MY area, both parents work mostly. Most have 2-4 kids. Our school district (top 3 in the state) is VERY active and has requirements around after school activities (think mandatory practices and rehearsals). Add to that the competitiveness of the area, parenting styles, etc. and you have a recipe that leads to adults needing some predictability to their schedule. Why is that bad? ...and sometimes you actually TRY IT, and it DOESN'T WORK and you need to find something else. You're welcome to drop in any time and volunteer YOUR copious free time on nights, weekends, holidays, etc. Your area is obviously different than mine. We've tried that and the reply has been (even from the most fervent of our volunteers), "I have to run Betty to dance, pick up Bobby from soccer, get something for dinner and get the baby bathed and put down. Steve is travelling this week and I still have two conference calls this evening. Sorry, I can't do this on short notice." When you begin to hear that on a regular basis you realize you need a different model. ...and sometimes the BOYS see the problem and come up with a solution...which ours did. You seem to think you know better for our unit. You must be one of the know-it-all WB'ers that run by district and council. They think they know what is best for our unit too, yet they don't seem to realize the majority of large troops in my area operate in a similar fashion. Why? They've tried your way too and it does not work in our area. It is not like we haven't tried it. We have...and it burned out our volunteers. As I said, you are welcome to come and volunteer YOUR time. I cannot ask people who put 20 hours a week in to running MB classes, working with the scouts to organize service projects, adults who take time off of work to go camping, etc., to give EVEN MORE.

I am familair (very familiar) with the NTX Food Bank. That comment is taken out of context. They were talking about their OWN food drives, not when donations come in. They frequently take in food from many sources. Many churches, mosques and temples (yes we have them in Texas, many of them) have their own drives and then donate to the NTX bank. Most of the food going in to the NTX bank comes from SFF. In fact, our council works with them to have units volunteer time to triage the incoming food so as to reduce staff time to managed the inflow. A good friend is on the board of the NTXX bank and knows first hand how much this program takes in. The last three years, had SFF not donated their take, the NTX bank would not have had enough food to meet their (ever-growing) goals. SIDE NOTE: Last year the mayor of Dallas implemented a single-use bag ban. SFF was usually done with yellow, recycled bags. BSA in our areas switched to paper bags. Disaster! Donations were down 45% as a result. Our unit printed up our own bags (think reusable shopping bags from recycled material) and did SFF. Biggest haul we ever had!! Hays County is a different story. It is in SW Austin, so it is not as metropolitan as other areas.I could see where poorly organized rural drives would cost a food bank more than they take in.

Question for the lawyers here: If an organization NOT in bankruptcy yet, but appears headed in that direction; could a Scout unit really be exposed to liability if they asked the CO (and were granted a release) to go elsewhere? Question for the person in trouble: Does the CO know they own your gear and assets? Most COs I know don't know that, so they would not count the scout gear as assets.

Hard to say. I think it would be nice to see membership data compared to this data to see what conclusions we could draw. Wish I had time to pull that together. I find it interesting that some states like mine have far more scouts (and Eagles) than other, more populous states (e.g., NJ). It would be nice to see demographic, educational and other information by state. It would be interesting to find out why Scouting is more popular with the youth in those states and what factors may affect it. I work for one of the world's largest technology integration firms. I hire a ton of kids every year. We don't care if you come from Penn, Pitt, Harvard or the local CC. If you're an MIT grad, sure, but most likely you are looking for something else if you're an MIT grad. It simply doesn't matter if you spend 250k on your BS or 24k. What matters is your attitude, your drive, your ambition and your people skills. My point is that you don't need to start in 7th grade by making your kid attend weekend tech or math classes just to get in to the "best college". These kids don't get a chance to be kids and enjoy life anymore. THAT is a HUGE impact on the Scouting program in my area. I get focusing on grades. I get focusing on extra curriculars. What I don't get is the wholesale focus from 7th grade on toward being #1 when the evidence shows that this approach, for the most part, does not have a significant impact on wages and job satisfaction later in life. What it DOES show is that these kids are more likely to burn out earlier (see Stosh's other thread on burn out).

For me I feel the burn out when: Adults add drama to the program (unit, district, council, national). People don't read. They want everything spoon-fed to them. Scouts or parents don't step up to help because they think someone else will do it. Parents or scouts are obviously in the program for the bling and Eagle, nothing else. You try to get through to a kid but the parent undermines all your work. The increased paperwork. The lack of real, substantive training.

Interesting stats on Eagle Scouts by state.

If I am not mistaken it is from the Handbook for Scoutmasters, Volume One.

Well, a trained adult leader is needed. If you only have a few of those then the SM would be needed. So in your unit a scout waits no more than a week. In our unit, if a scout plans correctly, he is in the same boat. If he doesn't, he learns how to plan better. Our ASMs also do SMCs if the SM is not around. Our guys do a ton of stuff outside. They hate indoor meetings. Hard to pin down the unit in to one room just to hold SMCs; hence the need for several trained adults to oversee the unit meeting while at least two others do SMCs. BORs are a bit more challenging. The advancement chair manages them. We get adult volunteers as usual. Coordinating "on demand" wouldn't work. Too many parents with too many kids running in too many directions. A set date works fine. No one has complained. No one has missed a rank. No one has missed a chance at Eagle. We *do* have them as needed. We don't have them on demand. Most families have more than one kid. Dad and mom work. Between getting dinner, getting homework done, running late, conflicts with other kids and other activities, everyone just likes to know there is a set day every month to have BORs. Tell me you would have your kid on a soccer team where the coach had "on demand" practices. Why should Scouting be held to a different level of expectation? I've held both roles. As I said, I *used* to have SMCs whenever I was asked. In a unit of over 50 boys (usually around 70-80) I was having more SMCs than I can remember, at all times of the week. At some point *I* had to have a life. Ironically, before I could say anything our PLC took action and came up with the schedule we have now.

At one point I was doing SMCs on weekends, during camp outs, during meetings, during other days of the week, etc. At some point, we as volunteers have to have a life. I don't think letting Tommy wait to the first and third Monday of the month is THAT much of an inconvenience. Nor is it against BSA's intent of immediate recognition.

That won't work in a large troop. We've tried it and we ended up doing SMCs every week and then trying to shoehorn in the BORs too. I see nothing wrong with having a schedule and asking the boys to 1) be knowledgeable of the schedule, and 2) work to meet that schedule as it meets their schedule. Few things in adult life are "on demand" other than cable TV. MB classes are not on demand. Training classes are not on demand. Nothing in school is on demand. I see no reason for our unit to do SMCs on demand. If I am completely honest, the need for fixed days originated at a PLC meeting as a way to be more considerate of the adults' time. Take your argument to the next level. If a unit is running as boy-led as possible, why would you have more than 2-3 adults there AT ALL?? So if Tommy comes up to you and says "Can I have an SMC now?", you take another adult and go in to the room to do an SMC. That leaves only 1 adult in the meeting hall. Ok, you say, do the SMC in the meeting hall. But if five more scouts request an SMC you now have to have all three leaders doing an SMC. That's about an hour gone for each leader and that assumes you have a third leader to begin with. Now enter reality. Adults travel. Adults drop off and pick up. Adults are shuttling Tommy's sister to dance so you can't have that "instant BOR". I think that is what most folks are saying. Every other week is when we have SMCs. The boys know when to ask and get on the schedule. In a word, adults are busy during the weekday evenings. There are other kids, other events, work travel, etc., that all impacts people's time. We have them once a month, sometimes twice if we know we have a large batch to do. In a unit with over 50 Scouts, you'd be surprised how hard it is to get three parents for a few hours on a week night.

This quote would serve PLs well:

In the shadow of national that we are, the number of scouters that are WB, silver this or gold that, OA Vigil, etc. is very high. This is the good old boy network that drives most average scouters crazy. This group seems to take pride in denigrating one unit's approach to scouting over their's. You'd think, with such a large pool of "experts" from which to choose, there would be an abundance of UCs to teach those units that run afoul of what these guys think is the "proper way to run a troop" on how to do it right. Instead, they find it easier to sit at RT and make comments about how one troop is an Eagle mill because they produce 8 Eagles (out of 60) scouts every year when their unit produces 11 Eagles out of 90 scouts. Yes, they are THAT petty. How Scout-like, huh?

Agree totally. On demand SMCs/BORs just feed that instant gratification gene we are developing in kids now a days. I *do* think there is difference between "on demand" and instant recognition. Our unit puts the onus on the boys to schedule their SMC/BOR by looking at the troop calendar and coordinating with adults on when this works best. We've made it somewhat easier on them as they know when SMCs (twice a month) and BORs (once a month) will be held. After each BOR the boys do immediately receive their ranks.

We do the audit with our CO so try can see the everything. When we pass with flying colors gives them more reassurance we do things well.

Depends doesn't it? If the current CO says "Okay, you can go and take your gear." then they are gifting the gear to the unit. It would have to be claimed by the new CO, but I would think they could do that.