Venividi

CNYScouter, I would recommend,if you haven't already, raise your concern witht the CC and SM, and ask that it be a topic at a troop comittee meeting. To be effective, everyone involved with the program needs to be on the same page. And without communication between adults on what expectations are for the troop, it would not be unusual to end up with the situation you describe, where holding a position without fulfilling the responsibilities is acceptable. Assumptions get made that no one else supports having reasonable standards (and I am sure you will find some parents who do not), or

CalicoPenn, I do agree with much of what you post, and I understand why you think "There can be a variety of opinions on whether these were met - and that's why they should be given lesser weight than the objective requirements", but agre more with Beavah that "That's as it should be; boys should be benefitting from the experience and judgment of caring adults.... which requires the adults be allowed to exercise judgment". Keep in mind the aims - character, citizenship, fitness; - they are not objective, they are subjective. They are more impacted by the objective requirements; sco

And certainly a topic which many are not shy about expressing their opinions (or "facts" from a certain perspective). I listened to Mr. Hanegraaff's radio show the night of the posted reference to his web site. He had a guest, and the topic was the book of Mormon - that it included internal inconsistencies which proved it wasn't reliable (from their perspective), but that adherents were too close to it to recognize those inconsistencies. Go figure.

> because experience taught them that most patrols never double check their boxes before menu planning to see what they already had available That was our experience also. The scouts preferred to dump left over food into the 3 boxes of "leftovers", and then out of sight, out of mind. I had the quartermaster go through all the old food and distribute, contribute, or dump. One of my favorite recollections was the number of containers of a certain brand of orange drink mix that accumulated in the box. The scouts wouldn't drink the stuff because it tasted bad, but yet, each mont

In the news: ACLU of Rhode Island Files Appeal on Behalf of Christian Prisoner Barred from Preaching at Religious Services (1/12/2006) PROVIDENCE, RI -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Rhode Island announced today that it has filed an appeal in federal court on behalf of a Christian prisoner who was barred from preaching during religious services at the state prison. Wesley Spratt had been preaching during Christian services for seven years at the Adult Correctional Institutions (ACI) until 2003, when a new warden unilaterally stopped him from doing so based on vague and gene

i know we probably should change up our method of cooking, but we're having enough problems getting simple things done (mostly b/c of leadership.), so i dont think now is the time to try to change that. Our exerience was that when we switched from a patrol cooking summer camp to a dining hall camp, the youth leadership actually got worse. There weren't a lot of other opportunities to lead where the patrol actually experienced discomfort as a result of not working together as a patrol. When we returned to a patrol cooking camp, the patrol had to work together, and the patrol had to lead

... it'd be the Scoutmaster, but since he continually has shown that he's too busy for getting around to things like getting a proper trailer for the Troop,... Just another perspective, for what it is worth: I would hope that the Scoutmaster is too busy to get involved with procuring a trailer. As a former SM, I would expect such support to come from the committee or a volunteer parent. I applaud your stepping up and doing the leg work on the trailer. Again, as a former SM, I don't know if I can express in words how gratifying it is to have someone take a project like this and make it

I believe that there were local floods upon which flood stories were based, but not a literal worldwide flood as described in the bible. Why not? 1.) Mt Everest is over 29,000 ft tall. Raining for 40 days and nights means a rate of 30 ft per hour (6" per minute). Granted, the bible indicates some of that water swelled up from below, but there is no evidence that there are places that could have provided this much water, nor any place that it could go. Even if half the water came miraculously from below, that is still 15 ft of rain per hour. 2.) The story indicates that the world was

> I'd hate for him to do something he shouldn't do... But that is part of the learning experience. Try something, and it works, or it doesn't work, or works only with continued effort. As long as it is not illegal or immoral, provide some support for his efforts, a little direction, and let him charge forward. Let him make decisions, and if he runs into a few blind alleys, he will gain experience and perseverence. And that is a huge part of the benefit.

Falterturm, You don't make comment on whether the scouts in the Viking patrol are being approved for rank advancement. If they are passing SM conferences and BOR's, then the standards being used for the scout spirit requirement are not in synch with what you would like to see. If they are being rewarded for their current behaviour, they have no reason to change. If, on the other hand, they are not being approved for advancement, and they all lack motivation to do so, then you do have a problem. Perhaps a SM conference with each individually, to discuss what they want to get out of

Welcome! > I just am amazed that this is more difficult than I had anticipated... And you will be even more amazed at the growth in a young man that pushes and stretches himself to overcome the difficulties. You have gotten some great ideas. My son's experience with the big box stores was that the local store had minimal latitude to donate material. The big box home building store sent his eagle project request to the home office. Later, they donated wood and hardware for a patrol trebuchet project. It won't hurt your son to ask; I think he will benefit if he hears some "no

I don't interpret using a rule of thumb for evaluation purposes to be equivelant to adding a standard that, if not met, means automatic turn down. Rather, I think it is a tool or benchmark from which one can start to ask "why" questions; such as Why has 80 percent of the work been done by the scout and his Father? How did you show leadership when only 20% of the work was done by others? There are likely some scenarios where the scout may have shown sufficient leadership given these statistics; there are also likely scenarios where the scout's focus was on getting a project done, but the sco

>As far as showing leadership. Did he work the group benifiting from the project and work out the plans for the project? Did he have to get donations of materials or have to earn money to pay for material? Did he arrange for others to help him on the project? Did he oversee the work on the project through it completion? If the answer to these questions is YES then he showed leadership. I am not so sure. Jollymon is correct to have reservations, and to investigate further. There can be a potential for some good discussions at the BOR to explore further. There may be good reason why

This discussion has taken an interesting turn that brought back an old memory. I was raised Lutheran. Back in the early 1970's our high school youth group had raised some money and was looking for a worthy cause to help needy children to which we could donate that money. We chose Catholic Charities (or something like that). Our elderly pastor did not allow it. He went off on a rant on Catholics and how their beliefs were wrong and they would end up in that other place. I found out that was a common view between Lutherans and Catholics back when he had been young. Times change, and p

Am wrapping up my first hunting season ever - at 49. Had some friends looking for a place to hunt geese. I have access to my father's farm. So I went with them. It was a chance to reconnect with the beauty of the land - which is vanishing quickly - two adjacent farms are owned by developers, a third purchased by the city of Elgin, IL for a park. I did not get one bird. Didn't care. Saw lots of Canada geese, ducks, doves, pigeons, blue jays, sandhill cranes, etc. Saw some snow geese for the first time. I would not have been spending the amount of time there had I not had an objec

Some thoughts on the uniform method and its relationship to aims: The church that sponsors our troup has a youth group. That group does have some similar aims with respect to the development of character. Their program is run without the use of a uniform. There is a Catholic military academy for high school boys about 2 miles from my house. They also have a similar aim with respect to development of character. They do use a uniform - in fact, several uniforms; the daily school attire in addition to a dress uniform, which looks very similar to a military dress uniform. And pare

Its a hobby - a reason to get outdoors, just like your photography hobby. A feeling of connecting with the primal urge to be a provider, at least for a weekend. I am not familiar with hunting on the National Elk Reserve, so can't comment if that is an accurate representation of hunting there, but I don't think it is representative of hunting everywhere. Note that the same arguement could be made questioning why someone would want to spend a weekend (or week) sleeping on the ground, in freezing rain, cooking over a fire, getting dirty, etc. when they could be snug in a nice warm ho

Got to thinking more on this from Eamonn's orignal post: Parents and some leaders seem to view how many merit badges were earned at summer camp as the yard stick that measures the success of the camp. I think the sports analogy to this is the parent that wants their child to be the leading scorer on their soccer or basketball team. Perhaps it is a bit more intuitive that these are team sports, and parents need a bit more time and instruction to recognize that scouting can be just as much a team activity.

Gotta agree with all these posts. Our troop returned to our council's patrol cooking camp after 3 years at a neighboring council's dining hall summer camp. Our observations were that teamwork within the patrols suffered during those three years. They didn't get enough cooking on weekend campouts throughout the year, and combined with each weekend trip being composed of a subset of the patrol membership, the scouts became more a collection of individuals at the same place. we noticed that the patrol goal of preparing meals (reinforced 3 times per day) was replaced by individual goals

Kudu, I like it - seems pretty desciptive to me. Sometimes I think there is so much argument over the methods and how best to use them than on actually spending time with the kids. Seeing the changes BSA itself makes over time makes it obvious to me that there are many ways to implement, not just one best way. (tongue in cheek: Often the arguments seem to be about how best ALL YOU OTHER PEOPLE should use the methods.)

> A uniform doesn't build character either, I've seen scouts in > uniform that are significantly lacking in that area. I have to disagree with this statement. The BSA position is that all 8 methods (including uniform) are there to help achieve the aims. I think it unlikely that they specified a method that has no bearing on the aims. I have no doubt that you have seen uniformed scouts behaving badly, but that does not mean that wearing the uniform doesn't help build character. An analogy - I am aware of church youth group members having shoplifted. That doesn't imply that

> And, you can't use Scout Spirit to keep him back (the most > abused and misquoted requirement I know). It's "living the scout > oath and scout law IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" - OUTSIDE of troop > activities - so, the uniform can't be an issue. We may be looking at different parts of the same elephant and drawing different conclusions here, but try as hard as I can, I cannot read into "IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE" that this means excluding troop activities. I once had a scouts Mom use that argument to try and make a case that her son should be advanced to Life - his behavior was

I just read the list that Kudu posted, and I think we're all better off for that guy's leaving the program. I also read the list, and saw the classic signs of burnout - sounds like he was venting. Appears to me that he was handling things himself that the committee should have been doing (tour permits, paperwork, training for parents), dealing with parents that didn't support him (the how come Johnny has to ... type reasons. ) All these things get old and frustrating after a while. I think it possible that the troop would have been better off if the committee had taken steps before th

Perhaps rather than a specific Eagle requirement since it is not something that any of us can add, use the concept as a mental exercize when reviewing scouts for advancement. Consider if you would trust the scout to lead such an outing, and if not, why not? It would give some visibility/clarity on areas to cover in a SM conference; i.e., why don't I trust him, and are those areas that need further development by the scout before he is ready. I think that the service project is where the scout is supposed to demonstrate the leadership skills, initiative, trust, etc. that are tested

I think a unit can be internally consistent and see the wearing of the uniform as one factor in demonstrating "loyalty" to his troop/patrol. There is also scout spirit involved in how a scout goes about completing the duties of one leadership position, one of which is to properly wear the scout uniform (paraphrased), the last time I looked, anyway. I personally don't have a problem if a particular unit discounts the wearing of the uniform. For a unit that doesn't see a tie in between wearing the uniform and demonstrating scout spirit, it shouldn't be a factor when signing off on scout s