Venividi

WDL Mom, I think much of the answer is "it depends". It depends on where your son's interest lies. It depends on how much time he has. It depends on his interests. It depends on how the sports teams are run. It depends on how his troop is run. And yes, it depends on what is important to you. Making the most of all time available is an adult concept. Back in the dinosaur days of our youth, kids had time to go out and find things to do on their own. Spend some time doing a whole lot of nothing. Not true today. Parents expect their kids to make the most out of every mome

Chippewa29, I think your idea has merit, and is a topic that could/should be discussed by the PLC, the SM/ASM core, and the troop committee. Your question is one that has to be answered by your particular group based on what you (the collective you) want to accomplish, the resources available, etc. (sort of back to the "mission" thing). One eye opening conversation I had was with a long time scouter in our district. The troop he was involved with had a policy that all families must provide an adult to serve the troop in order for their son to be a member of the troop. He told th

Firecrafter, How many of us can commiserate. You do answer your own question in your post. You get it. One issue with many volunteers is that they want to please everybody. It cant be done. As long as those that understand the program and volunteer to do the work bow to, and continue to accomodate the demands of those that don't understand the program and take advantage of those that do the work, nothing will change. There will continue to be stress, and continued demands on your time. I understand your need to step back after burning out. In your last few months, I encourage

Eamonn, You are moving off on "what if" scenarios that are far removed from patrol members holding each other accountable for their actions, and scoutmasters holding the patrol members accountable for their non-action. A stranger coming in to 7-11 bears little resemblance to 2 scouts on a troop outing. The scouts have a responsibility to each other. The consequences may or may not be the same depending on the circumstances. Raising specific "what if" examples and suggesting that by extension that the proper response should apply to all situations is not realistic. Veni

Eamonn, From your most recent posts in this thread and the getting admit responisbility thread make it clear that your disagreement is not that bystanders do not have a responsibility, but a disagreement with what the appropriate action/discipline should be for those bystanders that watched and did nothing. That had not been clear in your earlier posts (at least to me). Thanks for clarifying.

This is spun from the "getting a boy to admit responsibility" thread, to separate the topic from the advice requested on how to deal with that boy. There appears to be diverging views on whether other scouts witnessing a destructive act should be held accountable for doing nothing. There is a classic quote is "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) I do think that scouts that do nothing to prevent a fellow scout from performing a destructive act need to be held accountable for doing nothing. Doing nothing is not consistent with ou

One of the objectives of boy led patrol method is for the boys become responsible for, and accountable to, and look out for each other. So yes, if other scouts watched and did nothing, then they have a lesson to learn also.

I have to factor in the "pick your battles" factor. If the scouters are generally doing a good job, and the aims are being furthered, then in my opinion, there is little to be gained and much to lose in advising an inquirer that their ___(fill in blank with SM, CC, CM... )is doing it wrong and needs to be ____(admonished, disciplined, fired, brought before the DE, drawn & quartered, etc...). Many non-conformances are just not worth getting emotional about; and each of us have our own strengths and weaknesses in ability to effectively implement each bit of program. Each of us have diffe

Welcome, Gurnee Bruce. I am with the folks that are of the mind that fundraising for the troop is not service. The boy scout handbook section on service, while brief, is consistent with the view that boy scout service is a benefit the community. Personally, I would place funraising to benefit the troop in the same sphere as doing chores at home. Sure, one could use a definition of service that would include setting the table for your family dinner as eligible, (or perhaps even cooking for your patrol?), but that does not seem to be consistent with what we are trying to accomplish. I

foto, I am missing something - I don't see where dining halls have an exclusive on the experience of sitting around a table and be required to exhibit some manners, be a waiter, and clean up after the meal - except for being the waiter part. When patrol cooking at summer camp, the patrol all gathers around the same table to eat. They have invited guests at dinner that include various camp staffers that patrol members have invited, plus the adult leaders. In our troop, we expected manners. I also don't see where washing pots and pans is mutually exclusive with having fun. Certainl

AvidSM wrote: What frustrates me, is that over their lifetime, these boys will get so much more out of their scouting experience than any other activity you can name. And yet, they still choose baseball and the rest. I started out agreeing, but the more I thought about it, I see it as a matter of perspective as to which activity a particular boy will get the most out of. Since you referenced baseball as an example - participants learn the importance of teamwork; Trustworthy: that they must be able to be trusted by their teammates; loyal: to the team by coming to practices and work

I wanted to post an anecdotal story about patrol cooking camp. Our troop would use the sheepherder stoves provided by the camp, rather than using our propane stoves. (for those unfamiliar, sheepherder stoves are large metal boxes on legs. The box is filled with wood and ignited, and top of the box gets hot and is used as a cook top.) This required the patrol leader to delegate the tasks of wood collecting, keeping the stove stoked, and cooking. Every one participated in clean up. The PL really did practice his leadership skills. Typically, first year scouts at summer camp want to

I can see where those posting from Texas and other places south that summertime weather may not be condusive to cooking. Understandable when seeing the weather map with temps in the 100+ range. Up here in the North, that isn't a factor. Still, there are more dining hall camps than patrol cooking camps. I had a discussion a few years ago with a leader of another troop in town that always went to a dining hall camp. Their reasoning was that summer camp was a vacation, the boys didn't want to work while on vacation, and cooking was work. And the adults also thought it was too much work

Mr.Mal, Our troop has done both. Put me in the patrol cooking camp (pun intended). The benefits we found are: Pulls the patrol together. Most time at summer camp is spent on merit badges chosen individually by scouts. Scouts spend most open program time in subgroups according to interest rather than as patrols. You can require the patrols plan some patrol activities (patrol swim, or hike or ...) but most likely there will be only a few of these scheduled, compared with 15 meals that need to be prepared. Preparing meals has an objective that each individual scout wants to achi

With respect to acceptance of signed off requirements on "partials", I think much depends on the paricular MB. For a MB like basketry or riflery, I see little value in requiring the scout to make another basket, or to shoot another round, if those requirements have been initialled by another counsellor. I counsel the first aid MB. I do not believe it is in a scout's best interest to accept signoff on First Aid individual requirements if it is apparent that the scout does not know the skills. Sure, he may have been able to apply a splint to a particular injury or to identify the signs of a

Campcrafter, wrt patrol size, 10 is large, 5 is small, so it is a judgement call. Personally, I would opt for starting with all of them in one patrol because despite best efforts, a couple will probably drop, because camping will turn out to be neither a passion nor an interest to them. I have no good answer for number of patrol outings to ask the scouts to schedule. It would depend a lot on whether these youth treat scouts as a primary activity or as a fill-in activity between sports and other activities. So the non-answer is as many as they are willing to do, and that you and an

Allegiance to the unit that is sponsored by your church is fine and good, but should not dictate where you stay if your son is not getting the benefit out of it that he wants, and that you want for him. Don't get hung up on the webelos group that came over together getting split up, or even kids in the same church or school not being in the same troop. Kids are pretty resilient, and have many, many, circles of friends. My son had his scout friends, band friends, cross country friends, lunch time friends, etc. All different groups of kids with very little overlap. And within the goup

Keep in mind that the aims are character, citizenship, and fitness. Advancement is a method. It sounds like your troop gets this. When It is certainly wise to consult with ASM's as sounding boards, because as SM it is easier to sign and give a social promotion. Knowing that others (ASM's, etc.) are of like mind that a particular scout hasn't yet earned the rank is certainly helpful. I would go with packsaddle's advice. If the district chooses to advance the scout without SM signature, they may have that right. But on a local level, it is certainly permissable for the SM to choose n

I agree with some of Gags advice, but not all of it. A SM conference with each scout to provide honest feedback and set some goals for how they can demonstrate scout spirit is appropriate, and I think what is called for. I would discourge, however, passing the responsibility to the BOR to let them be the "bad guys". I see a few of problems with this: 1) it sends the message to the scouts that the SM thinks the behaviour was appropriate (or that he/she has low expectations). 2) an honest, open, caring relationship cannot develop between the SM and the scout if honest, caring expectati

I would doubt that he will end up behind bars. I expect that he will, however, be in for a rude awakening when he has an employer that has higher standards than the revised BOR did. venividi

Been there. Scout takes a MB pamphlet from the library, tells the librarian. Librarian does not write it down. Scout forgets that he has the book, (or perhaps can't find it, and it is easier to say that he never had it). Once SM hears of it, SM tells the SPL that there is a problem with MB books not being returned. SPL talks to the scout. SM tells SPL that is something he should delegate to his assistant, since the librarian reports to the ASPL. Asks the SPL to have ASPL follow up with the librarian. SPL looks at SM like he just came from Mars. SM sits down with SPL, ASPL & librari

jr56, Passing the issue to the Eagle BOR and/or National is one course of action - but I am not sure that it is necessarily the best one. In my view, problems are best handled closest to the problem. dhendron sounds like he is doing a heck of a job in supporting this young man. He describes how he has laid out to the young man the challenge that he faces. Ultimately, he will be the one to sign off on the scout spirit requirement based on his assessment on the scout's demonstration of scout spirit based on how the lad rises to the challenge.

Longhaul, It took a while to reflect on your post before I responded. Initially, I was upset that you would question the appropriateness of someone being involved in scouting if based on the viewpoint I expressed here. After reflection, I thought it more likely that I had done a poor job of explaining myself, and had not gone down to the next layer of meaning in my response. Everyones views and opinions are colored by the experiences that they have had. A little background on my experience may illuminate. The troop my son joined in 1998 did not have a functional committee. Asid

Perhaps its old age, but I found it difficult to remember every requirement for each scout for which I signed off. Some were memorable, but say, a new scout campout 12 months ago and watching multiple scouts do multiple requirements - I would be lucky to recall all the scouts that attended, let alone what they did. If I remembered, I would sign, otherwise I would have a talk about trustworthyness, if the scout felt he was trustworthy, and why I should sign based on his word. Then I would probably sign.

One of the things that I had to help a few of my scouts understand(including my son), was that if they allowed others to take advantage of them, they would continue to get treated that way (i.e. as a doormat). What you've described meets that description. You indicate that troop B has already done stuff to "knock their socks off", and they want more from you, while letting you know up front that no matter how much more you do, they are going elsewhere. Beavah gives appropriate advice. I agree with you to visit with the parents - be sure to let them know that you are glad to see the