Twocubdad

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my assumption is that even a "Parents of" organizations has to have some sort of definition behind it, right? A simple LLC would be terrific, but at minimum I would expect a set of bylaws, officers, annual meetings, criteria for membership, etc. Otherwise, what do you have? Are you a member of "Parents of" simply because you son is a "Scout of"? Does that automatically put you on the hook for potential liability? If the latter is the case, I can't believe a council would accept a charter from such a loosely-defined bunch. Who is the IH? How is the COR appointed. On the other hand, if the group is "Parents of, LLC" with the appropriate legal structure and requirements, I can't see why such an organization is any worse than any other.

A lot of junk like this gets written as a broad policy to solve a very narrow problem. The most obvious scenario was the district/council guys got tired of packs planning their own outings instead of participating in the district/council stuff. I have to keep reminding folks here that district campouts are to SUPPORT units -- if a unit has it's own camping program, that's great! I can also imagine some silly situation where the council is responding to a number of families were camping for free at council camps every weekend and calling them Family Campouts. Question: what's the difference between a single-family Family Camping and just going camping with your family? And if the Smith's decide to take advantage of the council facilities with a single-family Family Campout, does that count against the pack's two per year limit? Silly nonsense. If a council is doing anything but encouraging folks to get outside and camp as much as possible, they're headed in the wrong direction.

That's the sort of crap you get from blowhards as the district and council. 1 -- when did it become the buisness of the district camping committee to dictate to packs and den leader when a requirement is meet or is not meet? What are they, some sort of priesthood, interpreting holy requirements for the unwashed masses? I have my own copy of the handbook and am fully capable of reading and understanding the requirements myself, thank you very much. 2 -- Perhaps it comes as part of their training for the priesthood, but what gives them the inside track of the INTENT or the requirements? And since when does that matter? We go by the plain-language text of the requirements. I can think of four or five "intents" of the requirement, none of which matter one wit. 3 -- These twits have no idea of how you are running your program. Maybe some of the troops present is your brother troop and they are there specifically to work with your Webelos? Bottom line -- apply the requirements as written; run your program as you see fit. Tell the camping committee "thanks for sharing."

DING! Correct answer Beav! Family Services? Really? Unless the dad was throwing the knives AT the kid.... Wouldn't it be funny if the kid turns out to be the three-time nation champion knife thrower for his weight class? (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

When I took over as SM, a sage old SM told me it would take 10 years to get the troop running the way we wanted. I'm in my seventh year as SM and am beginning to think he was optimistic.

The issue with the "They've Been Together Since Tigers" patrols IS THE MAIN REASON for reorganizing patrols. TBTST is not a reason to be in the same patrol, it's the reason they need to be in separate patrols! These kids are in the 8th grade, for heaven's sake. Time to move on -- expand your horizons -- make some new friends. Trust me on this. Only the parents get all weepy over the boys being together since Tigers. Kids don't think that way. They just want to be with their friends and (mostly in the case of middle-schoolers) want to be with the kids they perceive as being "cool." That is NOT the same as being with the same five guys from their Tiger den. Kudu is right. You need mixed-age patrols, not age-based Cub Scout dens. When one of your three new NYLT graduates takes over as patrol leader, he can deal with the bullying and other nonsense. Now if you go to all the parents and in a very serious tone explain to them that you're trying something new and the boys will be camping THREE HUNDRED FEET away from the adults, and you need the parents to understand that you're relying on the youth leaders to.... NO, NO, NO! You just tell the parents you're going camping. This patrol camps here, that patrol camps there, the adults camp over here. First of all 300 feet is still within shouting distance, in case of an emergency. The boys aren't unsupervised or loosely supervised. The adults are always available when needed. Frankly, if you have boys who you can't trust to camp 300 feet away, LEAVE THEM THE HELL HOME! Do you think on a campouts now they're under 100% supervision? Understand that separating patrols SOLVES DISCIPLINE PROBLEMS. If one of the 8th graders is known to bully one of the new kids, put them in separate patrols. By having them 300 feet apart (600 if the adults are in the middle) you've taken away most of the bully's opportunity to bother the other kid. Sorry if this is trending off into "preaching and screaming."

Thia doesn't make much sense to me. The instability of "Friends of" COs is a suspicious rationale. How many units were chartered to churches which wake up to find the a new minister who sees Scouting as competition to the church's youth programs or that the demographics of the church has shifted to older members without children who wonder why they put up with all these kids running through the building and stomping down the azaleas? How many COs have been signed on with a promise that "we won't be any bother, we just need a place to meet" and having absolutely no idea of their responsibilites of owning a charter. How many CORs and IHs really check out those adults for whom they sign applications? The insurance/liability is a head-scratcher too. As Oak Tree points out, liability insurance covering the CO is on the BSA's side of the charter agreement. So what diff does it make if the CO is insured or has their own deep pockets for a potential plaintiff to dip into. And how will they determine what a "faith based and community service organization" really is? As has been suggested, can "Parents of" simply change their name to "Community Youth Services"? Does the organization have to be an affiliate of some larger, national group? If so, which national organizations meet BSA's standards? What is the benefit? Except for insurance from the national organization (I assume) our local Rotary Club meets in a local restaurant and the total of it's assets include a banner, a gavel and whatever cash is in its bank account. Seems rather judgement proof to me. Gotta think there is more to this than the letter lets on and that we see. As someone suggested (can't find the post) it may be that the insurance carriers are balking at such arrangements.

So the ninth-grader is in a patrol of one? I agree the patrols are too small, but that comes later. Right now, your greatest asset is the three guys going to NYLT. Use them. I wouldn't make any drastic changes until they return. Meet set up a planning meeting with just with the three (cancel a troop meeting if that's the only way to schedule it). Let them know the three of them are your leadership team and they will be the guys running the troop from now on. You have to sell them on the idea of a Scout-run troop. Get them excited about it. They get to be the Abraham Lincoln -- or maybe John Connor -- of the troop. Start by asking what they learned at NYLT and how they envision implementing it within the troop. What do they want the troop to look like in a year? In two years, when they age out? In seven years when the new cross-overs age out? With the SM's guidance, have them come up with a plan for the troop and then let THEM sell it to the others. At this point, I think you need to address patrol structure. With 14 active boys, you need no more than two patrols. Let the three handle it, with the goal of allowing the rest of the Scouts to decide which patrols they are in. However they want to organize themselves is fine. I don't really think you need an SPL at this point, but if your three leaders want to organize as two PLs and one SPL, fine. What the three should have seen at NYLT is how a model troop operates. Where you need to guide them is to replicate that with the troop for a couple months. Essentially, I would treat this as a new troop as Tahawk suggests. If you look in the SM Handbook and the program guides, there are meeting plans for starting a new troop. I think where you need to end up is with a "model campout" at which these three guys train the rest of the troop in the patrol method. Do everything by the book. Run the troop meetings leading up to the campout using the troop meeting planning, Write out duty rosters, menus, tent assignment, the work. Ditto for the campout. Kudu has good advice on that. Make sure the patrols and adults are all separated. Plan time for separate patrol activities (a hike is perfect). When the troop comes together, make it for an inter-patrol competition, like Manhunt or Capture the Flag. Maybe you cap the day with a troop campfire at which all the patrols bring a dessert they've made. When you get back home, your three guys stand up and ask the rest of the troop, where are we going camping next month. Frankly, I'd do nothing but prepare for campouts. Roll from one to the next. Blowback -- you need to prepare for it. Making change almost always results in some folks being unhappy. First thing I would let the merit badge teachers know that they have until the week following NLYT to finish their current MB classes. Of course, you dont start more. During troop meetings until then, I'd offer some counter programming of traditional Scout stuff. Don't make a big deal of it, you just get off in one corner and start building a really cool signaling tower, or demonstrating some exotic climbing knots and see who wanders up. One wild card you need to deal with is the one active 11th or 12th grader. Do you think he will come on board or has he gone ROAD on you? (Retired On Active Duty). If he's an asset (and understands and supports the new methods) throw him in with the three other leaders. Maybe you make him a JASM and put him in the elder statesman role. Good luck!

"Is this a hill you're willing to die on?" Having personally witnessed the scout coming late with no advance work then leaving early with 4-5 merit badges, I think you meet with the young man and give him the opportunity to explain himself. I'll hold out that perhaps he completed one, maybe two of the badges in that time, but probably not. Hopefully, after conferring with you, he will make some ethical decisions on his own. If not, you tear up the blue cards. If he wants to appeal to the council advancement committee, I'd be more than happy to take the opportunity to discuss with advancement committee what the hell kind of program they're approving. (MBUs must be approved by the council.) I think it goes without saying that your Scouts NEVER attend this event again. What in the world kind of lesson is taught by letting these merit badges stand? If you're not willing to die on the this hill, when will you? (PS -- for those of you who think MBUs are great and don't understand why many of us refuse to let our Scouts participate, this is why.)

Provide the most broad spectrum of program options possible and let the troops craft their own individual program which suits their needs.

Here's your answer, 'Fish : Use the FYFC schedule as fire starter. As a fresh-scrubbed SM years ago, I bought into the FYFC program as the way to run the program. Put the boys in a New Scout Patrol and crank everyone through FC in 365 days or less. First Class is your "Passport to Adventure" right? That's why you have to be FC to be in OA, go to HA bases or attend jambo, right? It signifies you can handle yourself in the outdoors, right? Um, not if you blew through the whole thing in one year. FYFC forces a "one and done" culture on a troop. All the FYFC schedules I've seen cover each topic once. Scouts successfully complete a requirement once. The issue which finally convinced us FYFC is a bad idea was First Class cooking. so the troop camps monthly, or so and you have 10 or so members in your the new Scout patrol. That means someone has to be doing their first class cooking on their FIRST campout with the troop in order to keep everyone on on track. When do you LEARN to cook? When do you do your Tenderfoot and Second Class cooking? When do develop your cooking skills? When do you have a chance to try something new, fail and try again? Yeah, so one of the kids already knows how to scramble an egg and can cook hotdogs on a stick. So he's patrol cook on one of the early campouts, 'cause by God we're going to check that box! That's a TERRIBLE program! That Scout's trail to First Class has added NOTHING to that young man's skill, knowledge or ability -- no, corrrect that, we've taught him to game the system and find the easiest path to checking the boxes. FYFC also perpetuates the Cub Scout mentality that every single action results in a requirement being completed and that we should be earning a doo-dad of some description every month. So you knock out FC in one year, then Star is a gimme at four more months, right? A week of classroom summer camp, a merit badge university or two and a stint as Troop Librarian and your Life. Not yet 13 years old and Eagle is dead ahead. Somebody find my good signing pen! (Cleansing breath....) Ohmmmmmmmmm..... Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time. Read that aloud with me -- Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time. Once again, Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time.

Advantage Emblem does really nice, custom neckers for our troop. They do a great job. Their artists can take any quality sketch you send them and turn it into a really great, professional designs. Our neckers have multiple colors, silver mylar piping around the edges and are cut extra large. I think they're about $10. Been working with them for over 10 years. Only had one foul-up but they fixed it at their expense plus paid overnight shipping so we'd have our stuff on time. Can't beat that. www.advantageemblem.com Ask for Jenni or email jenni@advantageemblem.com(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

So Base, what is it you don't like about accredited camps? That they require clean drinking water and sufficient sanitary toilets for all the campers? That they are required to have medical folks on staff and make advanced arrangements with local emergency providers and hospitals? Is it a problems that the facilities are checked for obvious hazards and has up-to-date fire extinguishers? Would you prefer the staff not have plans for lost campers, intruders in camp, fires or weather hazards? Should they let any ol' Tom, Dick or Harry run the aquatics and shooting sports programs or should these folks be trained? Cause that's all accredation is. It isn't a "recognition" but a process to ensure standards for health, safety and leader training/certification have been met. National Camping School for Cub Scout Day Camp directors is generally built around teaching what those standards are and how to meet them. And no, terran, having trained camp and program directors and an accredited camp isn't an option. Day camps belong to the council and any liability belongs to them. Your council would be foolish and negligent to let you hold a camp without meeting these minimun standards.

I don't know if this is still in the information for the new "tour plans" but it used to be that substantial deviations from a tour permit required a call to the service center to amend the permit. Maybe "answerable to" isn't the right word, but if we make substantial changes to a planned trip, yeah, we're going to let the parents know. Call it courtesy or call it CYA, but it just seems like the right thing to do.

It happens, Beav, you're correct. But in this situation, I don't think we were too far off base. Most of the advice was to ask more questions of folks up the chain of command. How far up varied, but even you suggested contacting the CC. And fairly early-on it was noted that we were dealing with youth protection policy violations, not actual abuse. (I will allow that I didn't care for the diversion into a general distrust of older, single volunteers, but that wasn't really related to the OP, either.) Given the facts presented in the original thread, I don't see how we can reasonably suggest anything other than the parent get to the bottom of the situation immediately. Communicating a sense of urgency and the potential seriousness of the situations was resaonable as well.

Hmmm.... Like a lot of folks I know, I received my "bought" knot the same way you received the knots you listed -- I was nominated for it by others. Folks who felt enough of the nomination to back it up with $1000. That was 8 or 9 years ago and that $1000 is still in council endowment, spinning off interest every year. I know a lot of folks who received a West Fellowship that way -- can't say I know of anyone who paid the $1000 themself.

How do these arrows add to the program? Sounds like a whole lot of adult time goes into making them. Do the Scouts participate? Do the boys even know what the all the coded bands mean? An on-going tradition I started in our old pack many years ago was for the WebIs to build shadow boxes which were given to the WebIIs as a "graduation" gift. The WebIs actually built the boxes and counted it toward their Craftsman pin. That the WebIs put all the time and effort into the boxes and then gave them away was a bit of a life lesson for some boys. But that they would receive their own shadow box the next year helped. The WebIIs really looked forward to receiving them and of course put all the actual patches and awards from their cub years -- not coded stripes on a store-bought arrow.

Okay, related question (I've had this one in my back pocket for awhile, this seems as good a spot as any.) Newly crossed-over Webelos DL dad tells me he doesn't need Boy Scout OLS because he took the Webelos version. Just knodded and moved on beause I wasn't sure. Remember reading here there was a plan to combine the two, but never saw anything official. Can anyone provide a cite? (site/sight/whatever works for you, 'fish.)

Unless the rules have changed in the last couple years, it is permissible to have a "Cub Scout den" of both Wolves and Bears. Look at the regs on minimum pack leadership. Not sure how that works with the new canned den programs, though. Back in the day, this is how all dens ran. Cub Scout den and Webelos dens. Not all rank requirements were driven through the den program. The 8-year-olds worked on Wolf, the 9-year-olds work on Bear. Den meetings were frequently something different all together.

Does ROmney stand a chance? Doesn't matter, the election will be a referendum on Obama. Economy will make a difference, especially gas price, reaction to SCOTUS decision on Obamacare, how the looming battle on the debt ceiling this fall, etc., etc. The Republican nominee is just along for the ride.

Perhaps the lesson learned for all of us is we need to divorce situations such as this from advancement. The attitude from the Scout and father should have been delt with on it's own merits and the "if you don't like the program here find another" talk held earlier. Or maybe later. If the Scoutmaster is willing, perhaps the better route now would be to let the BOR procede and evaluate the boy solely on the completion of the requirement. THEN have the lad/dad Come-to-Jesus meeting. You may be too far down this trail for this to be a practical suggestion, but maybe it goes in the Lessons Learned file.

I think Beav's got it. I started to write that I would give the Scout/Dad a chance to mend their ways (which would include the dad totally disengaging from the troop), but my suspicion is you are beyond that. I guess it's a good question to ask yourself, though. I kinda think the whole internal appeals process is bull. The job of the adults -- whether on the SM side or the committee side -- is to work together to deliver the program. My committee chairman is the best ASM I have. I probably do more committee work than any committee member. He and I talk almost daily. There aren't many substantive decisions made which we don't consult on. If I'm having problems like this one, my CC is going to be on board from the very first. That suddenly, presumably after a number of years of tolerating this family's behavior, the CC switches hats and is a dispassionate appeals judge is silly. Beavah's right that you either support the SM or find a new one. Hate to say it, Cross, but it's time for you to earn that CC/COR salary.

I'm firmly in the "leading by example" camp not opposed to a little "rubbing their noses in it" either. In fact, this past weekend, our ASM/Executive Chef threw together a little strawberry shortcake for the adults. A very simple yellow cake mix thrown in the Dutchie (no cleanup with a liner), sliced up a couple pints of strawberries and added a couple spoon of sugar (again, using a ziploc, no cleanup) and a shot of Rediwhip. I thought after dinner would be a good time for a walkabout and enjoyed my shortcake while strolling about camp. I got a few comments from the boys and always responded with how to make the dish themselves and how easy it is. I would not be surprised to see one of the patrols give it a try next month. We made a conscious effort several years ago to step up the quality of cooking in the troop. Yeah, the adults set a pretty high bar, but we also spend a lot of time helping the boys step up to it. At our big JLT every summer, we divide the boys into groups of two or three scouts with one adult helping. We challenge them to cook the most outlandish entree they can think of. JLT is at the Scout house so it's fail-proof. If they totally tank, there's a grocery a half-mile that way and a McDonald's a mile that way. We develop the menus in the morning and send an adult shopping while the boys are doing the training. We've had guys make chocolate fondu, chicken parmansean from scratch, gaspacho, watermelon soup was a big hit. One year a kid says he had never cooked a steak before and wanted to learn, so we bought a couple steaks and let him give it a try. And they make simple stuff, but adaptiing it to camp cooking. They get to try stuff in a D.O. they've never tried before. Whether you are leading by example or rubbing their nose in it depends on how it's presented. If you consequently help the boys to learn the skills for themselves, it's the former. If they have no chance of replicating the dish themselves, it's the latter. (And by the way, we have no constraints on menu or budget. They plan it, they buy it and divide the cost among the patrol members. Time constraint is something I've not really considered. We really don't do camporees and most of our campouts are rather loosely scheduled. This past weekend was wide-open and would have been a good weekend to simmer a big pot of chili all afternoon. Either way, we all know what sorts of activities are scheduled and can plan accordingly. We usually have one "Iron Chef" campout where the whole weekend is built around cooking, so there's no excuse there.)

1. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would my child be permitted to attend another crew function until I had some very clear and specific answers about the situation. 2. Go to www.MyScouting.org and take the Youth Protection Training course. Make sure you take the course specifically for Venturing. It will help you understand the BSA policies regarding adult supervision so you can decide for yourself if what has occurred is appropriate. I think it is easier for you to understand the youth protection policies than for us to understand all the nuiances of your situation. 3. Get one-on-one with the folk responsible for this crew. The crew committee chair, the Chartered Organization Representative for the sponsoring organization, the District Executive (a professional BSA employee -- some councils may have DEs assigned geographically, some may have a DE assigned to the Venturing program specifically0, or ultimately, the Scout Executive for your council (the top professional scouter in your area). That would be working your way up the chain of command. There is something to be said for starting with the Scout Executive and working your way down. BSA is no different that any other organization -- if your go up the chain of command you may waste a lot of time and not get the responses you need; if you go right to the top you risk burning bridges behind you. You've have to decide which is best. And by the way, when you call the Scout Executive, say you are a parent with a potentially serious youth protection issue and need to speak with the SE personally -- he WILL answer the phone. 4. I don't think it is time to call law enforcement or social services. There is no allegation of abuse or criminal conduct, just a violation of BSA policy. But we don't have all the facts here. VentureMom, if you have a real suspicion that some sort of abuse or illegal activity has occurred, you should contact the authorities right away.

KC9 -- where, exactly does that authority lay? Would the scout be better off if the project review folks kicked the can down the street and the problem wasn't caught until the boys' Eagle apps were reviewed? How would that work for the boy who is a month away from 18? Or do you just give them a pass at every step of the way? I really think we're all debating this from a position of ignorance as none of us seem to really understand lone scouting and the checks and balances within that program. Have they met the requirements for a lone scout or not? From our perspective of the traditional program, it does seem this mom and Scout are skirting all the normal procedures. If I were in MIB's position, I would be right there with him, demanding some answers and mad as hell that the council registrar went along with this fraud. Until someone explains the particulars of Lone Scouting advancement, MIB and his district advancement committee are standing up for the integrity of the program as they understand it. Good for him. The way Moose and MIB's council handles Eagle projects and BORs is different from mine, but given their situation, I don't think they are out of bounds. Personally, I don't care for district-only EBORs precisely because the district folks know very little about the scout. But if you're going to go with that method, it is reasonable that someone from the district get involved with the boy's project.