Twocubdad

All that. Seriously, KJ, the first thing you should consider is that this is no longer a "we" problem -- it's a "him" problem. One of the purposes of the merit badge program is to get young men like you son accustomed to dealing with, talking to, following instructions and accepting advice from old folks. That you are trying to anticipate all the concerns of the various MBC removes your son from that learning experience. As a parent, it is appropriate for you to suggest to your son that he discuss this with his Scoutmaster. The first step in earning a MB is to discuss it with your scoutmaster, get his input and approval, the name and contact info for a counselor AND that all-important blue card. At that point, if you son is still unsure of himself, I think it reasonable for a parent to sit down with their son and coach him through his first contact with the counselor. Since his troop doesn't have any in-house counselors, that contact will likely be by phone. So coach him on the questions he should ask. What should I bring? What requirements should I have completed when we meet? What requirements do you want us to do together? Do you recommend I read the MB pamphlet? Do I need to wear my uniform? And all the stuff related to making an appointment. Then point him to a phone and LET HIM DO IT. There is a subtle difference between you teaching your son an important life skill -- such as how to set up and prepare for an important meeting -- versus solving the problem for him. It's the old fish vs. fishing lesson. Personally, if your son just crossed over, he should be focused on T-2-1 requirements, not merit badges. But that's more a troop thing and since you didn't ask......

Say a Scout is selling something like discount books, which he can do any time, versus a carwash which is scheduled for some date in the future. So are you saying that if a Scout takes a fundraising app in and the guy signs it while they're all standing there they still expect the Scout to wait two weeks before going out selling the books? Nuts. Once the app is signed he's good to go. If he's smart, he'll try to sell a book to the guy who just signed the app. If he signs the app then tries to tell the kid to wait the two weeks "just because", tell the guy to pound sand.

Never really thought about it, but it's not a bad idea. Maybe you should store your burned-out light bulbs in the same flashlight. I don't usually click on I&P threads, but I just had to see what political issue was being discussed in a thread titled "Flashlights".

Whoa, there big fella! Any time you string that many adjectives together in one short post, it's probably a good idea to think twice before hitting submit. A good, caring, thoughtful leader will help coach a Scout to get the most he can from the program. For one, I don't think making Eagle and flaming out by 13 is getting the most out of the program. An experienced leader will help guide the boys to a nice, long, meaningful Scouting career. Frankly, I don't think Max is too far off base. I understand that behind his few-hundred word post is a lot of counseling, coaching and walks in the woods before getting to the "maybe another troop will be a better fit" conversation. Of course, others will disagree, but hopefully in a bit more Scoutlike manner. Those who disagree should not join our unit. I've had boys show up day one with a notebook with the 21 merit badges they are going earn and ask for blue cards on all 21. Um, no. That's not the way our troop runs things. We want the Scouts we serve to experience all the program has to offer. That takes time. Moosetracker did a good job of describing why. This is also a question of the chartered organization and the unit leaders creating a troop culture and environment it wants -- it is the CO's program, after all. I am fortunate that the gentleman who organized our troop more than 40 years ago still serves it as our COR. It is his vision for the unit we share and try to fulfill. Unfortunately, on rare occasion, we have families which don't agree with that philosophy (and I do mean families, as an 11-y.o. boy who comes up with an advancement plan like that is exceptionally rare). If, after trying to bring that family on-board with our approach to advancement and Scouting in general, the family still doesn't share our vision for the troop and their son, then it is in everyone's best interest for the family to consider other units which are more advancement-driven. If makes you feel better to call that "my way or the highway", that's up to you. I'll refer to it as helping the boys get the most they can from the program and creating the culture and environment in the unit that the leadership wishes to see.

I don't think it's a "cooling-off period", rather just a guideline that it could take that long for approval. Don't submit the paperwork on Thursday and expect everyone to move heaven and earth to get approval for a Saturday fundrasier. The new tour plan process allows a two-week turnaround time, too. Our council usually kicks stuff back in a couple days. If they're sitting on ANY paperwork for two weeks "just because" they should probably rethink their commitment to customer service.

Yes, df. I've seen kids who develop such an attachement to a mask or goggles or swim wings, that they cannot function without them. The can be great swimmers, but have a dependency on their crutch. So what happens when their canoe tips over or they trip and fall off the fishing dock without the mask? Swim tests aren't mandatory, ya know? Last year our Philmont crew was on a shakedown the day we did the testing, so none of them showed up for camp with them. One guy, who was doing some aquatics MB, did the test Sunday afternoon, but the rest either blew it off. Wednesday afternoon, when the whole troop went for a free swim, they either asked the staff to let them test then (which the staff was happy to do) of just stayed in the non-swimmer area. I started to write that we should consider different swim tests for different activities but thinking that through, no. I do think there are some tweaks in how waterfronts are run, particularly for recreational swimming. When we run our own swimming area for the troop, we don't worry about ability groups, but simply set up the swim area so the water is not over anyone's head. Truth is, if you're just splashing around, there's no reason to be in 8 feet of water. Every scout camp waterfront I've seen is set up with a non swimmer area which is usually no more than knee deep, a beginner area that goes to about chest deep on most boys, and a swimmer area over the head of everyone. Go to free swim and see where the kids are -- the beginner area. Except for young cubs, segregating non swimmers to knee-deep water is silly. Few kids use the swimmer area, except for short periods. Unless they're is some purpose, hanging out in the deep water is too much work. The kids who just want to have fun head for the beginner area where they can play games and enjoy the water with their friends. Maybe free swim time could be set up with a little less structure? Or limited "recreational swim" rules established

We do checks off-line, before we get to camp. Mostly for practical reasons -- we've never made it through a check at camp without thunder rumbling through. So far, it's just been a single-purpose activity. The best pool around for the swim checks isn't very visitor-friendly. They'll let us do the swim test for free, but want to ding all non-member (which is everyone) for a guest fee to stay and play. We do plenty of aquatics activities through the year, though. I was a Water Safety Instructor (back when WSIs were certified to teach all ANRC aquatics courses top to bottom)so I run the tests myself. I'll get one of the lifeguards to sign off on the paperwork. Interestingly, last summer we had one kid who had the worst case of home sickness I've ever dealt with. Got off the bus boo-hooing and didn't stop until sometime Wednesday afternoon. Turns out one of his(many) problems, was he had been put in the "baby class" for Swimming MB (he hadn't attended the troop swim test). I walked down to the waterfront to discover that the kid had essentially been given private swim lessons all week by one of the senior instructors. The guy was terrific, understood that the boy was very homesick and in a couple days had the kid's swimming skills up to par with the rest of the class. The fellow couldn't have been any better. So at what point can we no longer protect every beginner or non-swimmer from his perceived embarrassment? The swim test wasn't this fellow's problem, it was his lack of swimming skills. He was given every bit of support, encouragement and opportunity he possibly could have been given, but was still unhappy. Had he not qualified for the MB (although with the help of his private instructor, he did) would he have been equally upset? How should we have protected him from that little bump in the road? Should we have taught knot-tying in private so as to protect the feelings of the knot-challenged? In the thread on hazing/pranks, I argued that we should protect kids from unnecessary embarrassment. But again, there is a cost/benefit analysis to be performed, and swim tests are clearly on the plus side. Maybe swim tests are needed for free swim, but when you look at the totallity of the aquatics program, ability grouping is a big part of how we do aquatics safely.

Then file a formal appeal on behalf of the boys whose EBOR was delayed. My experience is the job of the folks who answer the phone in the advancement team office is to weed out the folks who only want to gripe. The one time I've called, my reception was about the same as yours. My belief is they respond to written letters with backup documentation. I would send a letter outlining the process the Scout has been through and attach dated copies of his Eagle app and any correspondence between the you, the scout and the district. If you have a clean Eagle app dated November or December 2011 and as of yet no EBOR, that's prima facia evidence of a problem somewhere. Have you or the Scouts been given any reason for the delay? To answer your question, the district advancement chairman is a member of the council advancement committee and reports to the council advancement chairman. The council folks are the ones with the real power/responsibility for advancement in terms of making sure policy is followed. The council advancement committee reports to the VP for Program who is a member of the executive board and reports to the council president. There are a couple guys on the boards here who are in councils/districts that simply suck. Perhaps that's your situation. One option is to have your COR write the council president and list the ways in which the council is in violation of the charter agreement. Send copies to everyone you can think of, but especially your regional director. Unfortunately, the bottom line is "the district" is a bunch of volunteers who will either do a good job or not. If the membership chairman is in name only, unless you are up the food chain and in a position to replace him or williing to do the job yourself, you don't have a lot of options. Going back to my original response, most of the folks in sucky districts just forget dealing with the district or council and run their unit programs the best they can. The time, energy and effort you're putting into trying to fix the district or to get them to to their job is better spent focused on your on unit. Basement, Abel, you guys got any insight here?

Coolest was a Surefire tactical flashlight. Actually it was a gift from a dad in the business. This was before LEDs got really good. For it's size, it threw out as much light as a car headlight. You could also reheat your coffee with it. Best thing was a Thermarest pad. Close behind was a really good camp cot from REI for World Jamboree. I'd never made three weeks on the ground at jambo without it.

Here's the deal -- no on here is really too worried about the committee minutes. But that strikes me as a pretty minor point. What's the real issue? Yeah, if one of my guys is held up on and EBOR for six months, I'm up somebody's fanny with both 13EEEs. But that's not something which would even be discussed at a district committee meeting anyway -- at least not here in our district. Here, the district the district advancement chairman arranges the EBORs. If I can't get a EBOR scheduled, I'm calling the Council AC. No response there and I'm on the phone with the advancement team at national. Other than the EBOR issue, and that it doesn't sound like you exchange Christmas cards with district committee, how are district operations affecting your unit? (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

But Mr. Beavah, Mr. Beavah! We have 1.5 million volunteers to control! Blanket, nonsensical statements are so much easier to administer than trusting all these volunteers who actually KNOW the Scouts to do the jobs with which they've been entrusted.

Are you kidding? Take your children and never return. Call the Scout Executive (top professional guy in the council) and tell him what you know about the new assistant den leader. The SE can have your local District Executive give you a call and suggest other packs in your area.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Since "discipline" is the training necessary to prevent future bad behavior, I would say that training should be led by the Scouts (with the usual supervision and coaching from the adults). If they're looking for ideas for what that training should be, I'd suggest the entire troop learn what it takes to clean up such vandalism and perhaps some additional practice in how to clean anything else which needs it. Of course if you really mean "punishment" that's a different deal, especially since the perps are unknown. If they were known, punishment would be up to their parents, not the troop and certainly not the youth. The troop adult leadership may decide that since the perps are unable to behave as Scouts they should take a break from being Scouts for a time. I also think making amends for their wrong doing requires making things right with the patrol whose gear was damaged.

Roger that. I'll give you that one. But who cares about district committee meeting minutes?

You in Basementdweller's district? Here's how you solve the problem -- quit. Focus on your unit and Scouts. Do some real Scouting. Teach a bunch of new kids how to whip a rope or build a fire. Take a bunch of Webelos on a nature hike. Show a kid how much better a burger tastes cooked on a wood fire than even on the grill at home. Let the politicos and empire builders have at it. If you are at the level of worrying about official minutes of a district meeting, it's time to refocus. Welcome back to Scouting.

Absolutely agree, Barry. Unfortunately, there are a significant number of parents who don't. Far too many drop their son off at scouts with no more thought or involvement than dropping him off at the movies. Or as cheap child care. $85 for a week of day camp? You betcha, Skippy! Our troop puts a great deal of effort into providing info to new parents. On the Webelos campout in the fall we take the parents off for a two-hour information session. They're given our troop handbook, which is essentially the syllabus for the session. We have a condensed version when the Webs visit a troop meeting. In March, after crossover, the troop committee holds weekly new parent classes during troop meetings. This year we added a parents-only buffet dinner for the new parents to meet the old and have an opportunity to ask questions and chat about Scouting and the troop. Except for the campout, we strongly encourage both parents to attend the orientation sessions -- even if only one parent "does Scouting" we explain that it will be very beneficial for both to understand the program. We'll get about 60- to 75% participation and a handful mothers and fathers. Usually there are several families which neither parent attend any of the sessions. How the hell does a parent drop their kid off for a program like Scouting and not check it out? This year I taught a session on advancement. Three -- count 'em -- three parents attended out of 15 new Scouts. You will have to forgive me if I'm a little huffy when Johnny shows up with dad's signature on all the Tenderfoot requirements. The problems with Webelos-to-Boy Scout transition are deep and structural. Most troops properly focus on the Scouts, not the parents. That parents have issues transitioning should be no surprise. (Can someone tell me why there is no national New Parent Orientation training?) Not many troops have the resources to put into parent orientation we do. I can well imagine a thinly-stretched SM, doing all he can to keep the troop program afloat, not having a lot of patience for whinny parents who won't invest the time to learn the program.

BD's OP probably isn't too far off the mark from many parents' experience. I've had parents chew my ass good because this was their perception of crossover. On the otherhand, I've got two newly-crossed-over WDLs who are loving life as ASMs. Scout camping for them meant they took Thursday and Friday off work to take the pack camping. That we hang out in the adult site, drink coffee, swap lies eat like kings is wonderful. Life is good. All depends on the parents' point of view. If they want to pine away at their son's lost childhood, they're going to. If they want to enjoy their son's growing independence and ability to take care of and entertain himself, they will.

If the purpose of swim testing is to ferret out the weak swimmers and hold them up for ridicule, then yes, 'fish, we shoul ban swim tests. But off hand, can you think of any other good reasons for conducting swim tests? Really, anyone feel free to chime in because 'fish apparently missed that section of Safe Swim Defense. Courts of Honor must be really short in your troop, since everyone probably already knows the boys with the crippling fear of public speaking. I suppose you only have to call them forward, get a good laugh while they stutter, stammer and wet their pants, then everyone goes home. But yes, if that's all there is to a Court of Honor, we need to ban them, too. And I suppose we should ban all medical checks, too, since everyone knows the only purpose of a hernia check is for the doctor to get a laugh. HA! Can't wait for these kids to turn 40 -- now that's HILARIOUS! I've asked this a couple times and no one has addressed it, but am I the only one who sees a difference between a real part of the program which MIGHT have the potential for causing stress or embarrassment versus some stupid game where the WHOLE PURPOSE is to cause stress or embarrassment? I don't like changing light bulbs, so the idea of doing a COPE course just ain't happnin' for me. My guess, however, is that part of the training COPE directors undergo is how to work with kids who are freaking out and helping them make a positive experience of the whole thing. I happen to know that during OA Ordeals candidates are taught the purpose behind stress-inducing elements of the weekend. All of which is brought together for them at the closing. I also know those in charge of Ordeals look for kids who may need to punch out. No, there's no guarantee that they won't miss a kid who isn't handling the stress well, but if this were a snipe hunt, they would be looking for that kid so the could call the rest of the troop around to laugh and heap ridicule on them. I watched the video, Beavah, admittedly not all two hours. Funny. I especially liked the one where the old man did the power slide into the parking space. I was less endeared with the Menthos/Diet Coke gag. Might be funny in camp, but I see that one going badly if someone tried pulling it during an Eagle Court of Honor. I note, however, that all the Candid Camera skits were essentially sight gags where the "victim's" only involvement is in their reaction to the joke. I guess the summer camp equivalent would be the plastic eyeball floating in the soup or the quarter glued to the picnic table. Yeah, there's mild embarrassment in being fooled, but the joke itself is funny, not just the embarrassment of the victim. The reason the victim is laughing at the end isn't because Canadians have a better sense of humor that we do, but because the sight gag itself was funny independent of the reaction to it. But I honestly don't see many 14-y.o.s putting this effort into a prank. Rather, I think what the rest of us are talking about is stuff which is based purely on someone being the goat and ultimately isn't otherwise funny. Like Snipe hunts. Or the Canon Report gag. The only thing there is that some dupe fell for it. Anyone here still get a laugh out of confusing report/account for an arcane definition of report meaning explosive noise? Or is the laugh over the fool who fell for it? Those are zero-sum games. We're getting a laugh at your expense. Our good time comes by making you feel like a schmuck. NOT Scoutlike.

Work with me here, Beav, cause I'm missing something. Define "prank" for me. What is the difference between acceptable and unacceptable pranks? Give us some examples of acceptable pranks.

So let us run the cost/benefit analysis of OGE's snipe hunt vs. Beav's canoe trip. On the plus side -- Canoeing -- Scouts learn a sport which may become a life-long activity. Physical fitness. Comraderie of time spent in the boat with your buddy. An opportunity to enjoy the outdoors and quietly float up on wildlife. Sense of accomplishment of arriving at camp on a long day on the water and overcoming obstacles (literally) and possible hardship. Risks of activity are managed by adults with some basic knowledge of the sport and minimal Safety Afloat training. For guys who are having a really bad time, like Beav's little fellow, the troop leaders are there to encourage and help him along (although no one can guarantee a positive experience.) A chance to learn who your real friends are -- the guys who help you clear your swampped canoe, chase after your gear floating down the river and treat you for hypothermia; or the guys who paddle on laughing at your misfortune. Snipe hunt -- potential for learning important life lessons about trust and the ability to laugh at yourself. Opportunity to enjoy the outdoors at a time of night kids don't often get out, possibly seeing nocturnal animals and stars you may have missed otherwise. (Although bent down holding a snipe bag an constantly calling "Sniiiiiipe!" probably lessens this opportunity.) A chance to see who your real friends are -- like Stosh's SPL who spent the hunt with you or OGE's SPL who lured you into his confidence then made ----------------- I'm going to stop here 'cause I'm feeling a little silly for having wasted the last 10 minutes of my life writing the above. Everybody dang well know's the point here. The purpose of the canoe trip was a positive one. That some kid had a bad time, irrationally blamed everything on his boat buddy and quit Scouts over it is unfortunate. But was that the intent of the trip? Did the leaders not do what they could to make the trip a fun, positive activity for everyone? I'm guessing the leaders spent quite a bit of time working with this little fellow, helping him along, calming his fears and anxiety. On the other hand, the whole purpose of a snipe hunt is to embarass and humiliate someone. Let's quit pretending the two "activities" are of equal value.

I'd say both are within their discretion as counselors. I really get tired of hearing "adding to the requirements" over every little instance of someone asking boys to put forth effort.

Oh, come on, Beav. You know there's a difference between learning to swim and standing on your head in the dark being made a fool of. Do we really need to debate intent and value? We do an annual training with our boys on hazing and bullying. Stripped down to it's basics, the issue is this: is your fun coming at someone else's expense? To make yourself feel good, are you making someone else feel bad. Is your laugh coming at someone's humiliation? The other half of the equation is the standing between the joker and the jokee. Two 17-y.o. Eagles can razz each other in good fun, but when one of them pulls the same stuff on an 11-y.o. newbie, it's a different deal. OGE makes that point well. Guys pick on each other, razz their friends and pull jokes. That's just what guys do, regardless of age. But when someone takes advantage of a the difference in status between two, the jokes can quickly quit being fun. If you'll go through the few examples in this thread alone, it's not hard to understand the difference between the jokes and pranks which are fun -- fun for everyone -- and those zero-sum games where everyone gets a laugh except for the one fellow the joke is on.

Oak Tree has the idea. Your goal isn't for the boys to earn the awards, but to provide a program which will allow them the opportunity to earn it. Have you been to www.praypub.org? They're the folks who manage the Religious Emblem program for a number of denominations. There are a number of resources there which can give you some idea for both promoting the emblems, including the information on the new coordinator's position.

If that were the way Snipe hunts went, I'd be all for them. Unfortunately, the hunts I'm familiar with involve some poor sucker standing alone in the woods holding a bag across the Snipe trail while making various silly Snipe call noises. Sooner or later reality creeps in and they come back to camp, to the laughs and jeers of their friends who were in on it. Short on bonding, long on humiliation. And for the pop-psychologists out there, I wasn't the victim as a kid. Any one see the episode of Cheers! when Norm, Cliff and the boys took Frasier Snipe hunting? Frasier turned the game around and got the last laugh.

Maybe the problem, E61, is that everyone is only there for themself or their son? But I agree with the subject line that CoHs are a pain. Reading off a list of stuff kids earned AND RECEIVED months ago. Frequently kids don't remember the badges their being recognized for. We're down to two CoH's per year and I'd like to see that drop to one with more of an annual banquet feel. We have one "old school" CoH in September. Because we don't have regular meetings at the scout house during the summer, most of the boys are being recognized and presented their summer camp MBs and ranks for the first time. We have more of a banquet in mid-December. It's more of a family affair in that we recognize the youth and adult leaders and thank them for their service. Generally, there are few individual awards to be presented due to the short time since the September CoH. Clearly, the problems is that the CoH ends up being the third time the Scouts have been recognized for the same award. The same night a Scout passes a board of review, he is recognized and is presented with the card for his advancement. The following week, or as soon as someone can make a run to the Scout shop, he is recognized again and presented the actual badge. That is fresh and right on the heels of the work and effort the Scout has put into the award. A CoH three months later is pretty ho-hum. Of course Eagle CoHs are independent of all this.