Twocubdad

Be careful what you joke about/wish for. You think membership will take a hit if LDS pulls out? You ain't seen nothin'!

I'm okay with it. I don't think the BS oath is any more difficult for a Cub to understand than the CS oath. But I'm a traditionalist and kinda hate to see the CS oath go. I am hopeful this is the beginning of an effort to streamline the programs top to bottom. If you were going to design a system whereby half-way through the program you winnowed the membership by half, you couldn't come up with much better than the current Crossover baloney. I've written on this at length and won't repeat it now. I hope substantive changes to the structure and relationships between packs, troops ad crew are on the way. But if the "One Oath Initiative" is it, then it's nothing more than eyewash and will be evenless effective than the past "fixes" Acco outlined.

These are the same folks who gave us Detroit, right?

We registered our "pin" fairly early on -- maybe two years ago? In that time we've had one lead which did not join.

Yes, it's a big deal and asking for a reasonable explaination and review by the higher ups is okay. But asking for everyone involved to be fired makes me question where the problems lie.

Dude -- gotta say it sounds like you've gone 'round the bend on this. At some point you have to realize that the other folks in this mess have SOME basis for the decisions they made. Do you really think the council folks said, "hey, business is slow, let's stir some stuff and remove a couple volunteers"? Or do you think maybe the troop leader came to them with a reasonable problem -- or at least a reasonable SOUNDING problem -- and they did their best to help one of their volunteer? You want people to loose their jobs over this? Really? Sounds like you're doing a good job of making their case for removing you.

I don't know.... The record longest thread -- some 30 pages -- was about whether or not a Scout should be awarded his Eagle.

I agree with what the others have posted thus far. I think one of the "rookie mistakes" you may have made was in dealing directly with your own son. In the situationa you described it would be difficult for the other Scouts or the ASM to see much more than a dad hovering over his son. That's not the reputation you want for yourself or especially you son. You may have very well been justified, but you understand the perception. THE FIRST THING we try to do is hand off issues with our own children to the other adult(s) with the group. Maybe that doesn't sound like such a great idea when the other adult is Hulk Hogan, but still.... It seems your underlying question which I don't think anyone has really addressed is whether or not you deal with this guy's behavior now or if the greater good is served by letting things ride for now until you can take over as CC. Frankly, I don't think anyone can make that call but you. Way too many variables, nuiances and local politics involved. But the one thing I don't think you can do is sandbag the guy, at least not on this particular instance. If you wait to become CC then bring up the matter, it would appear to me to be vindictive. "HA! I'm in charge now and boy are you in for it." And I think it would be difficult for you, as CC, to deal with this guy at all without it coming across as payback for the hike incidence. You put yourself in the position of essentially giving the guy "one more chance" to bully someone. Where are you if the next time he gets in someone's face the other guy pushes back? Or if the victim is some 15 year old? Consequently, I think you have to deal with it now. For one, I think it only fair that if you do become CC, the rest of the leaders know where you stand on this sort of behavior. As CC are you going to turn a blind eye to bullies -- adult or youth -- or are you going to do something about them? That the SM has totally weenied-out on the matter bothers me -- an ASM is primarily his responsibility, not the committee. (And that he thinks a solution would be to make this guy SM again is unconscionable -- makes me wonder about HIS fitness for the job.) Since you have already discussed it with the SM with no effect, you do need to take it up the line to the CC. If that goes nowhere, with no real COR or institutional head, I would be tempted to have a chat regarding the situation with your district professional, but that depends a lot on your relationship with him/her. It would depend on the Scout Executive, but I would think getting physical with another leader could result in a membership revocation from the council. If you become CC and the stuff hits the fan with this guy, I think you will be well served to have plowed the ground before hand. At that point it should be clear that your actions as CC would be a continuation of your efforts to clean up this mess. You've been to the SM and he did nothing; you've been to the CC and he did nothing; so now you're manning-up, taking the responsibility and doing the heavy lifting the other guys would do.

Congrats! I wanted to know where the palm is to be worn? On the patch? -- No Next to it? -- No On the ribbon of the medal? -- Yes Also, where is the medal to be worn? -- Centered left pocket flap. I put the pin through the flap seam, just as an easy reference to keep it straight. And, can the medal be worn with the patch? -- Yes, but some will argue with that because in the past it wasn't allowed. But since that would require having two uniform shirt (one with and one without the patch), they dropped that rule some time ago. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/06E.aspx

Most of our pack's dens meet Sunday afternoons. They meet in the Scout House, which is adjacent to the main church building, so there's no conflict. My younger son's den eventually started meeting on Friday nights. That was terrific. Once we convinced the parents "date night" is a joke and they really hadn't been on a date in years, it worked great. Being a non-school night took all the pressure off. If the boys were playing and having fun, meetings could go two hours. The parents were relaxed and let the boys enjoy themselves.

Sounds like a great service project, frankly much more involved than most. Big Atta Boy to the Scouts. SM, 2ASMs and AC vs. one committee member. Sounds like a decision to me. Actually, at the point the SM approved it, it sounded like a decision to me. The committee member -- and the district Eagle advisor -- need to go pound sand.

Our troop was rife with bullying when I took over. You address it head on and stomp on it hard when it occurs. Any wind of it was a quick ride home followed up with a parent conference. It took about a year to change the troop culture. But part of wiping it out is redefining it. When bullying is commonplace, a lot of the ordinary put-downs just become background noise. Some of the stuff the older guys were doing to the younger guys was "just a joke" to the older guys who didn't see (or didn't want to see) that the little fellows were hurt by it. Example, right after crossover, I walked out and three 17-year-olds were assigning nicknames to the new Scouts, ala Animal House ("Uumm, you're Pinto. Ummm from now own you're Flounder.") No, I told them, they could learn the boys' real names. But nicknames are fun, everybody has a nickname. Fine, I said, after you get to be friends with the guys and a fun nickname comes up organically, go with it. But randomly assigning nicknames is degrading and bully-like. But it makes them feel like part of the group, they said. Well you should have said so. Tell you what -- I'll come up with nicknames for you three. You are Dee F., you know, like on your report card (the other two thought this was funny as heck.) You, are Lardass -- obvious reasons. (The third guy is still laughing.) You, I said to the third guy, will be Dewey -- except that we'll spell it D-U-I. Now should I announce this to the rest of the troop, or are we just going to learn everyone's real names? That was the end of that.

So what happens when a Scout shows up for his EBOR totally unprepared and his spontaneous answers do communicate to the board his character, citizenship and personal fitness? Is national going to accept the judgement of the board that the Scout isn't ready to be an Eagle or will they simply look to see that all the boxes and been checked, regardless of what was or wasn't said at the board of review? National has turned boards of review -- especially Eagle boards -- into an anachronism. It's a traditional part of the program but its REAL function is no longer needed -- at least according to national policy. No one has the cajones to pull the plug so we struggle trying to create a process that doesn't appear to be a rubber stamp. We can dance around it; we can create some though-provoking questions; we can throw some procedural stuff in there; but at the end of the day the circumstances under which a BOR can turn down an Eagle -- and be upheld -- are both narrow and blatant. This silly Tweet thing is part of the charade. The real reason they don't want mock boards is they are afraid units are going to go off reservation and create a shadow review process outside the control of the districts. Units can ask all the non-PC questions -- you know, dangerous stuff like the symptoms and treatment for heat stroke or how many campouts have you attended in the last year -- and defer the Scout until he is, in the eyes of the board, ready to be an Eagle. If BORs are like job interviews, it's like being interviewed by a committee with no power to hire. And, no, my unit doesn't do mock boards unless the Scout requests one (which hasn't happened in a good while.) When I became SM they were basically required, but we've created a program which makes them uncecessary. By the time a Scout gets to his EBOR, his is thoroughly prepared and everyone in the troop is in agreement that he is an Eagle Scout. Consequently, our boards do become somewhat of a victory lap.

The above advice is sound, generally speaking. But it took me less than a minute you read you post and with that level of understanding it's hard to get into specifics. What these other guys are telliing you is your program needs carrot first with the stick coming later. Your husband seems to be going with the "shock and awe" approach. He may have good reason to do so and I'm willing to defer to his judgement. Perhaps he's decided the paper scout need to fish or cut bait. There is merit to that. In my experience, he's not going to change those Scouts, especially with their parents' attitudes. For as long as it takes these boys to make Eagle and finally drop out, he's going to be butting heads and frustrated with their attitude. The troop may very well be better off without them. But he needs to understand that is the approach he's taking. My real concern has more to do with the adult politics. It is a curiosity to me that the "council" asked your husband to take over as SM. Councils don't do that. They generally avoid it like the plague. Unit leaders are recruited and appointed by the chartered organization. On the one hand, if you husband was recruited the the chartered organization and the Institutional Head (the head of the CO), the Chartered Organization Representative and (hopefully) the Troop Committee Chairman sat you husband down and said, "this troop is a mess. We want you to clean it up, get rid of the dead wood and make it something we can be proud of. You have our full backing to do what needs to be done to get there," you're still in for a rough go if it, but he ultimately have the backing of the right people. When the parents of the paper Scouts start raising Cain and calling for his head, he has the support of the CO to tell them to go pound sand. On the other hand, if your CO is uninvolved in the troop ("we don't have anything to do with the Scouts, they just meet in our fellowship hall") and the committee chairman doesn't support him or has no spine; then let me be blunt and tell you you're screwed. His only real hope if turning around the troop is to do so from the bottom up, as Beavah suggests (but I think his 3-6 year time frame is optimistic). Meanwhile, he's going to have to hold his nose and deal with the paper Scouts. Frankly, I would get them to Eagle as quickly as possible, shake their hand, give them their hats and hold the door open. Guys like that can undermine a lot of good work by a lot of other people -- youth and adults.

I'm with SP. Tweets? Seriously? What is the purpose of that? An organization which can't effectively communicate the date on which New Year's Day will fall and their solution is to Tweet obscure points of advancement policy. The heck with campouts, maybe we should ban electronics from National.

Funscout -- does everything have to result in a merit badge? Isn't that what belt loops are for? Can't your boys just participate in some fun scout activities, funscout?

Seems like a good reason/excuse to end a silly waste of time. Does anyone think the President really sends the letter?

A great movie on leadership is We Were Soldiers. Gen. Hal Moore (the then-Colonel in the movie) wrote a number of books and lectures (lectured?) on leadership. Lots of good lines on leadership: "I'll be the first to set foot on the field of battle and the last to leave" and "Take care of each other. Because when the metal hits the meat, each other is all you have." Of course the Sgt. Major, played by Sam Elliot has all the really good lines, none of which are printable here. Unfortunately, the unedited version of the movie is pretty graphic. I wish I could get a cleaned up TV version of the movie with the tough parts redacted.

Ah, my other dining hall pet peeve -- using assault, battery and misdemeanor larceny to teach courtesy to our Scouts. Unlike many troops, we have a troop hat which is considered part of our uniform. So when we arrive for dinner in Class As, all our Scouts are wearing hats. This generally increases the likelihood a few of our guys will forget and wear them inside the dining hall. Or even if you remove your hat what's the first thing you do with your hat when you need to free your hands -- you put the hat back on. So after a few instances of getting sideways with the dining hall staff over various levels of assaults committed against my Scouts, I got proactive and would politely let them know hats are part of our uniform and that if any of our boys forget and have their hats on in the building that I would consider it a personal favor if they would please politely remind them to remove them. And if the response is anything but a quick apology and compliance that they please let me know ASAP. Lo and behold, after a couple years of this we got a new dining hall steward -- a really nice young fellow -- who at orientation reminds the Scouts to please be courteous and remove their hat when entering the dinning hall. He even suggests that they convenienly tuck the bill inside the back of their belt to keep from setting them down and forgetting them. AND he asks that if anyone sees someone else with a hat on they remember that A Scout is Kind and Courteous and for them to simply remind the other fellow to remove his hat. (Deep, satisfied sigh.)

Yeah, I had to look up doggerel too. I was taught Scout Spirit is living by the Scout Oath and Law. So I've always been a bit surprised to learn parts of the Oath and Law can be read to include pounding on tables, blowing horns at 6am and the wearing of hula skirts and coconut bras. Our troop demonstrates Scout Spirit by doing a really working hard and practicing for our turn at retiring the colors (compared to the troop whose Life and two First Class Scout needed help from the camp director to even fold the flag). Our Scouts are taught to stay after last session and help the counselors clean their areas. We participate in all the activities, competitions and programs. We volunteer to clean the ENTIRE dining hall after dinner every day (not just our own table). Our adults stay busy volunteering at various program ares for which they have an interest or expertise. We're the first troop to sign up for a full slate of duties cleaning the showers and assembly areas. We always do a troop conservation project and usually have pioneering project/gateway in our campsite. And we never, ever win the spirit award. It always goes to one of the "look at me" troops banging the tables and wearing the coconut bras. And our Scouts take pride in that. They know something the staff (which votes on the spirit award) doesn't know -- the real meaning of Scout Spirit. I'm with Callooh on this one. Campfires and while waiting for other troops to assemble is a good time for the yelling -- not while other people are trying to eat and have a conversation. Fred started a concurrent thread in which he mentions having an adult table separate from the boys. I started to spin another thread, but this one seems like a good place to note that I disagree with his approach. I make a point NOT to sit with the other adults. I try to sit with a different group of boys every meal, but sit most often with the first and second year guys and particularly the ones who don't seem engaged or having fun. This is a great time to see how they're doing, what they're enjoying, the cool stuff they've seen and may want to do next year. Or school. Or sports. Or any other thing that comes up. You know, conversations. Hard to do that with Table Number Four, Number Four, Number Four screaming in your ear.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

We picked up a provisional camper this year standing in line for medical checks. Great kid. Within 15 minutes you would have thought he had been with our guys since tigers. I think it depends on the kid. If he is outgoing and makes friends easily, he'll do well.

Not necessarily going to become merit badges, just BSA-approved activities. Some of us are in councils which pilot-tested ATVs and PWCs a few years ago which are now approved and being implemented in a number of camps nation wide. I rather doubt we'll see any of these activities become MBs anytime soon as the restrictions keep many scouts from participating. RichardB is a forum member and posts occasionally. His office is the one responsible for running these pilot programs and developing the permanent programs. There was quite a buzz at the shooting ranges about the possibility of Scouts shooting handguns and already a movement to add a handgun range to our camp. Maybe Richard or someone from one of the pilot camps and provide some details.

Thank you, 'fish. I take this as a compliment. Of course, there is nothing which says after returning the item, especially as a Scout leader, I can't take the opportunity to discuss the cause of the lost item with the Scout. That discussion would depend on the situation -- is it a chronic problem, is the Scout generally irresponsible with his gear or did he simply misplace it? SP, I do get the idea that the person who lost the item needs to fix their behavior, but to me this is one of those things which is more about ME doing what I should and not about the other fellow.

Which is one reason why unit EBORs have one district rep on the board. The district person has the actual Eagle application and is responsible for getting all the proper signatures -- or not, as the case may be. I went through the training for the district reps (tho have never served as one). We were instructed that if something like that came up we were to close our notebooks, tell the Scout and the rest of the board the District Advancement Chair would be contacting them, than them for their time and leave. Eagledad -- my own EBOR back in '73 was as you describe. I believe it was held in the county commission chambers with the board member arrayed across the dias and the Scout in single chair in front of them. My only recollection of the meeting was of a Dr. White (who happened to be black) playing with his moustache the entire time. Can't say if it were nerves or a lack of significance, but I don't recall a single question. While the formality can have it's benefits, I prefer the depth of conversation a more familiar setting allows.

"You think confiscating cell phones from Scouts and adults is a good policy?" That's not what I wrote. They're nuts if they think boys are going to text their friends at home about what great fun they're having at Boy Scout camp.