Twocubdad

Cool. I'll use it this week. Actually, I got a chuckle. We recently presented an Eagle to a Jason and yes, he pretty much did the minimum.

I've got two Lodge ovens and love them both. It's the gold standard and I don't think you can go wrong. Lodge has outlet stores here and there. You may look for them. While I hear what le V's saying about a $10 D.O., there's also something to be said for having everything match. I'd also suggest looking a one 14" oven. I have one and it's great. I can put two small roasters in it with lots of veggies and feed a crowd.

I've started and discarded two posts on this topic because I just couldn't get down what I wanted to say. But Beav is coming close. We have to work with each Scout at his level, understand where he's coming from, what makes him tick, what motivates him and how we can best use the "published" program with him to achieve the goals of the organization. For most folks, Scouting seems like a pretty straight-forward program. But what most don't understand is it is incredibly nuianced. A lot of parents and new leaders have a lot of trouble with that. Without understanding the subtle nuiances you get the two extremes: either ham-handed rules or anything-goes advancement mills. Uniforms make a perfect example. The importance of Uniforms as a method of Scouting is that it allows us an opportunity to teach the boys discipline, self-respect, attention to detail and pride in themselves and their team. The expectation in our troop is when uniforms are worn, everyone is in full uniform -- hat, necker, shirt, belt, pants and socks. The younger guys are excited to wear the full uniform. Receiving your troop hat and necker at crossover is a big deal and the little guys take great pride in wearing it. With the younger guys, the issue is training them to wear their uniform properly. They are constantly forgetting something, buttoning their shirts wrong or running around with their shirt tails out. A reminder -- that is, a little extra training -- is all that's needed to get them in line. Some of the older guys still want to buck the system. They started in the troop under the previous administration and uniforming wasn't important. I have one kid in mind, a patrol leader, who doesn't want to do anything. He uses his uniform as a weapon to see what he can get by with. Two weeks ago he showed up for a campout in sandals, no socks or necker and a college hat on backwards. I pulled him to the side and asked if this was his idea of leading by example. "Huh?" is all I got. I asked him where the rest of his uniform was and he said it was in his backpack. (That he had it all with him speaks volumes.) "Get it on" was all I said to him. I've sent guys like him home to get forgotten uniform parts. I've made guys like him buy lost pieces from the troop inventory. So what's the difference between a friendly, Scoutmasterly reminder and the proverbial kick in the butt? A trained, experienced leader who has taken the time to get to know the Scout, understant where he's coming from, what makes him tick, what motivates him, etc, etc. So would I deny a Board of Review to a guy out of uniform? IT DEPENDS! If he's really trying and just forgot something, we'd probably scrounge around and find the pieces he needs. If he's being a twit and trying to push our buttons, we'll push back! This is one of the great advantages of Scouting over other programs. You go to any other kind of camp and your leader is some college kid who's ticked his parents are making him work for the summer or because he has the hots for the cute girl working in the crafts lodge. An important part of scouting (one of eight) is having that relationship with adults of character who have a long-term interest in they boys' development and well being. Unfortunately, Daddy-o, it doesn't always lend itself to easy checklists. If I have a Scout who is struggling with an something, I'm going to give him the extra attention and help he needs (and maybe even a mulligan or two). On the other hand, if I have a boy who is dogging it and I know can do better, I'm going to hold his feet to the fire and push him to give his best effort. You have to know when to push and when to pull. It's the Scoutmaster's job to know the difference.

I don't read Issues and Politics threads anymore and didn't realize this is one until after I opened it. So I'm going to stay out of the politics and reply as if this were a camping/program question. I don't think packs should be hosting parent-gender specific campouts. Cub camping is supposed to be FAMILY camping. Most packs don't go camping often enough to warrant such breakouts. In my experience, few families send both parents on a campout. Maybe dad works weekends or mom just doesn't camp. Parent-gender specific campouts would seem to create a lot of unnecessary conflicts. BSA literature refers to "adult partners" instead of "mothers and fathers" in order to be as inclusive as possible. Creating exclusive situations seems to me to have more down sides than up.

Our Ordeal ceremonies tend to be huge, with maybe 100 in the audience so I don't see an issue with a parent standing on the back row to observe. If we're committed to the "no secret organizations" policy, I don't see how you can object on principle. That said, a little diplomacy on the part of the lodge advisors should handle the situation. The parent needs to be educated as to the significance of the ceremony and understand it's purpose. If their objections are of a religious nature maybe reviewing the script will help. Hopefully, once they understand the Ordeal, attending the ceremony won't be necessary. But if they still insist, they should be allowed, but only if they agree to stay in the background and respect the proceedings. We can all imagine a worst-case loudmouth parent with a chip on their shoulder intent on causing a problem or making a point. If they insist on attending the ceremony but can't agree to respect it, they should given the option of taking their son and leaving. In your situation, OSS, what I don't get is that this guy is the district commissioner. He should know better. Sounds like he was just trying to throw his weight around. His district committee chairman and DE, or maybe the Council Commissioner should have a talk with him.

You can always ask anything.... A lot depends on the situation. Clearly, if the guy has the approval of the CC and COR and passed the BSA background check, he's in and you don't really have any say in the matter. But if the fellow is now showing up at your Webelos den meetings and wanting to attend your den activities, you should have some input. It would be unwise for a CC to stick a den leader with an assistant he doesn't want. Beyond that it get's complicated. Can you give us more details about what this fellow's role in the unit and yours? Edited part: Eamonn, I am assuming the guy was cleared despite his record. If he was declined by BSA and the unit approved him anyway, a heart-to-heart with the COR and eventually a call to the Scout Executive is in order.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

One of my pet peeves are people who interrupt a flag ceremony with gags, coughs and shouted instructions at every little slip. Who is showing more respect to the flag, the group of 11-year-olds trying their best to do a proper flag ceremony or the people interrupting the ceremony. My theory is that the people who don't really understand how to show respect for the flag (and no, OGE, I'm not putting you in that group) are the ones who act like they should throw their bodies under the flag to keep it from touching the ground, as if they were taking a bullet for the President. Particularly with the boys, we are TEACHING them the proper way to do things. If that means the corner of the flag sweeps the ground or the flag starts going up upside-down, it's a learning opportunity not a Federal offense. If they really tank and just can't figure it out, the SPL is to quietly step in and help them out. The attitude of respect and soleminity is more important to me than the mechanics. If they have the right attitude, the rest will come. A lot of flag etiquette is geometry. This weekend a group of my younger boys were getting ready to serve as color guard for an Eagle ceremony. They had carried the flags forward and were scratching and sniffing as to which stanchion the American flag went into. When I asked them for the rule, the all immediately chimmed in "to the speaker's right" but when I asked which side that was, I got nothing but blank stares. I usually have to stop and think it through myself. It's an easy mistake. Personally, OGE, I think the high road is to apologize to the guy. Maybe his email was out of line, but you have the opportunity to diffuse the situation and move on with it.

What were you paying before? We've been above $200 a week for several years. This year we are also at $225 and registration is higher than it's been in a number of years.

I also like the idea of a first year program, unfortunately, the one at our council camp has not been executed well in the past. But hope springs eternal. The biggest problem is staffing. First year program always seems to be last in line when drawing staff. The older, wiser, more experienced staff members all seem to want to staff more challenging areas. A few years ago they had a middle school teacher as the first year program director and he ran a great program, despite still having the bottom=end staffers. The next year was the year we decided to give the program another chance, based largely on the program we saw the year before. Sure enough, the next year the teacher was the new aquatics director and they had some 18-year-old running the program. One of the things they do very poorly is to working with the boys on the requirements they need to complete. I'm sure out of the 75 or so boys every one has a different set of requirements to be completed, but we had some boy come back with a net of one or two new requirements done. With 8-1 patrols they could fine-tune the skills groups better. I agree with the rest of you that the troop should be rechecking requirements like first aid , fire and woods tools safety, etc. But I also expect the boys to be able to get credit for the things they were to DO. Example, the second class hike: half a day was devoted to this. But half our guys didn't get credit for it because after three miles their counselor decided they had gone enough and cut the hike short. The first class guys completed only part of the orienteering course. Even simple stuff, like record keeping, was a disaster -- no credit where it was due, sign-offs on stuff the guys had never attempted.... If the all came back really proficient in the skills they were taught, it would be another thing. But again, the results were spotty at best. Just not the best use of a week at camp.

I guess the 90% who don't make Eagle have to come from somewhere.

Not as much disagreement as you may think. It's a bit nose-holder for me too.

From the new guy in the council who went to PDL-1 first part of March. Of course it could have been something the local council requires. Sounds like a good idea though.

What's the deal with the jambo patches. When we registered (a year ago!) I thought I understood that everyone would receive their first participant patch shortly there after. A year later, nothing. We're a couple payments into this thing now. Is this a national deal or council? Several guys in the council are already wearing them. For the most part they seem to be the fairly well-connected council committee types. Anyone one got a patch yet?

Sometimes the boys need to be booted outside their comfort zone. Once a year or so we do an Iron Chef competition. One year we ran it like the TV show where the troop provided the groceries for the whole weekend and the patrols had to back into a menu based on what they were provided. We've run it requiring the use of a Dutch oven and another time not allowing the use of any pots, pans or utensils. The Grand Prize is a steak dinner on the next campout with all the trimmings, cooking and cleaning provided by the adults. We've had patrols show up with white table cloths, candles, plastic wine glasses and sparkling cider trying to win the steak dinner.

I'm with you except for the bad coffee thing. Some things just can't be tolerated. A man's gotta have standards! I don't mind the newbies. Most the folks who have been around start to "get it" as some point. The guys who want to make me scream are the ones who think they know the program because they have umpteen years experience. Truth is, they have one year's experience they've repeated umpteen times. They are the ones who see every problem/issue as an opportunity to "create" a solution instead of sticking to the proven program. I think one of the common denominators is that they are in it only or mainly for their son. They tend not to show up during baseball or lacrosse season despite the fact that I know they don't play or coach. All their "problems" all relate back to their own son. I rarely hear ideas for how we can improve the new Scout program, only that we need to do the 90-day fitness, finance and family life requirements as a troop or that we need more Eagle advisors.

In my experience if the job gets done most folks are going to complain about who did it. But if you want to get picky, as Cubmaster, you husband is the chief program officer and the responsibility is his. My suggestion would be to come up with 5-6 ideas and let the committee have some input as to what they want to do. Don't try to get too complicated with it. Go with the obvious stuff -- the district Cub Scout day camp is always one month's outing. The council here usually has a discount night at the local minor league baseball game. Swim parties are always easy, especially if you can convince a local swim club with their own lifeguards to let you just show up (that way you don't have to run the BSA safe swim defense).

Sorry, but I don't think it's your call. If you think the kid is going to be a distraction to your troop, then politely decline to take him with you. It's not your place to talk with the other SM about his program, short of the basic info you need about the particular Scout. Maybe he is running an Eagle mill. But maybe he's reasonably considered the camp program and how it works with his troop's program and thinks this route is in the best interest of his Scouts. Our first year Scouts take MBs at camp. We don't think much of the council's first year program. We suggest our first year guys take First Aid and Swimming (which go a long way toward T-2-1 requirements) and then a couple entry level MBs (Weather, Reptile Study, handicraft stuff). If I get invited for that "friendly cup of coffee" I'll get a to-go cup and, in as a friendly and Scout-like manner as I can muster, I'll tell you to kindly mind your own business. It cuts both way. If one of my Scouts wanted to go to camp with the local Eagle Mill troop, I have no doubt that they will talk bad about me. "Can you believe the nerve of Twocubdad! He tells his Scouts what MBs to take! He won't let them take citizenship or Communications! Who does he think he is?" I occasionally get "the talk" from the camp director about "supporting" the first year program. We're not supporters, we're customers. When their product is to our liking, we will buy. We tried it a couple years ago and it was a disaster. We had several adult ASMs volunteer to help in the area and they all vowed "never again." Staffing is the problem. The boys who work that area are always the newest, first-year staffers. Every few years they seem to get their act together, but there's no consistency. Consequently, I can't know in March, when we sign up for classes, what the program is going to look like in June. Maybe when they get a first year area director who sticks around and develops a staff they can build on, we'll reconsider.

DE's must have either Cub position specific or SM/ASM position specific before completing PDL-1. They can either take it before the go or they get to take it on their Saturday off while in Irving.

A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency for my part. Our council ESLP review committee meets only once a month. I've seen good, solid projects rejected for some rather petty, technical reasons and pushed out another month or more. Because of the amount of petty, technical detail required by out council, I would say most boys are looking a month or more to even research and write a proposal. I spent two hours last night working with a Scout trying to get him through the last stages of his proposal. That was our third or fourth meeting. Given that, around here I'd say the drop-dead minimum is 3 months. Inside that it will require special dispensation to get through. I don't know what the project committee's policy is regarding accelerated reviews. I know if a kid is close, instead of resubmitting a proposal, they will ask him to make the necessary changes and submit them with the final write-up. But if the project isn't close, I doubt they're going to drop their requirements just because a kid is turning 18. The committee's literature says they want to see proposals submitted before a scout is 17 1/2, but of course that is unenforceable. Back to that lack of planning/emergency thing, I would have to think twice about moving mountains for a boy who sat on his butt for years. By the time a kid is inside three months, he has been given ample encouragement and reminders. Of course there's a question of what is a reasonable amount of mountain moving. Meet Sunday afternoon to review his proposal, sure. Throw everyone's schedule into a corner so we can work five consecutive days on a project? Probably not. And of course there are extinuating circumstance. We had a boy who joined the troop at age 15. He made Eagle only because everyone in the troop did what was necessary to get him through. But he also did his part.

How does "they get left behind" work?

Yeah, GWD, that's what I usually call Dog-and-Bush syndrome.

Believe it or not, I had this conversation with my DE over a burger and beans sitting around the campfire. His job IS about numbers. It's about the number of boys he can bring into the program so we can teach them Scouting values. It's about the amount of money the council needs to raise to support the facilities we use (the campsite we were sitting in last night, for example). It's about the number of new units we can support so our troop doesn't end up with too many Scouts to be able to deliver a solid program. Many years ago the folks who run BSA, who we now call volunteers, decided we needed to hire people to do the crummy jobs of recruiting new units and members and raising money so that we can focus on the fun stuff, programs. Unit service is the responsibility of the district committee and the commissioner service. Sure, the pro has advisory responsibilities, but the volunteers are responsible for program. Just about any professional will tell you the toughest part of his job is that his job performance relies upon voluntary efforts of others. He doesn't have a product he charges for or taxing authority. Folks can give to Scouting or not. The same with membership and new units. Folks can join or not. The foot soldiers in the FOS and membership games are also volunteers. He can fire them or give them poor review. Generally if a volunteer drops the ball the pro has little choice but to pick it up himself or see his job performance suffer. That's just the nature of working for a charitable organization. If you they don't understand that they didn't do their homework. And if they don't like it, they need to update their resume.

This is one of those situations where the herd takes care of itself. Sometimes it's less than Friendly or Kind. After sufficient calls, tent shaking and threats, the next tactic is usually dropping the tent on Sleeping Beauty. A cup of cold water will be coming next. Somewhere along there is where an adult gets involved. If we're in a situation where sleeping-in only means Sleeping Beauty misses breakfast or an activity, then who cares. If sleeping in only effects the one Scout, we're probably not going to hear about it anyway. But I'm not going to read a book and smile knowingly while the entire troop is put seriously off schedule by one irresponsible kid. The truth is the consequences to that kid will rarely equal the inconvenience and problems he causes to dozens of people if we are significantly late returning from a campout. Letting one boy ruin the program for the others is not Scout-led -- it's Scout-led-off-into-a-ditch. Neither the method of youth leadership nor the idea of controlled failure requires that we allow an entire program to go south so that one kid can learn a lesson. Many times with adolescents the real issue is the struggle for pecking order. In my experience I've had three boys were this was a chronic problem. All three were fairly typical misfits, for some reason or another. I'm convinced habitually sleeping in was their way of letting the others know they had control over the group. That's probably another thread, but again, one Scout's need to mark his territory doesn't trump the good of the group. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Beav, do you have a source for this? It's reasonable and I don't question your logic, but my point is that we -- at least I -- don't have access to the alchemy of how BSA judges the returns from a background check. But using the information and/or logic we have, would you not say it is reasonable that mutiple, recent DUI convictions would result in some BSA action? I don't agree with the intrepretation of the reporting policies taught youth protection training. I'm looking at the Discussion Guide that comes with the YPT video -- the closest thing I have to a syllabus for the course. In the instructions for the first discussion break, the guide reads, in part: "If you have a reasonable suspicion that a child is being abused, you should report your suspicions. If you suspect that a child in the Scouting program is being abused, you should contact your Scout executive about your suspicions. If the child is not in the Scouting program, contact you local child protective services agency and report your suspicions and the reasons you have for feeling the child is being abused." That is much broader than "a Scouting context". If the child is "in the Scouting program" you should notify the SE, regardless of where the abuse takes place or who you suspect of causing the abuse. If to whom the report is made were a big deal, I would think the video would make a similar big deal about differentiating between abuse in a Scouting context and not. If I were the SE and one of my voluntees reports to the authorities a suspected case of abuse with one of the boys in his unit, I would certainly want at least a head's up as to what is going on. It doesn't take much to imagine a parent, accused of child abuse by his/her son's Scout leader, going off on the BSA. While it's not particularly germaine to this debate, even if I suspected a case of abuse with a child not in Scouts, I know could call my DE and he would be glad to get involved and help as he could. We have that kind of relationship. Your results may vary. Reading the thread "What would get you to increase your FOS contribution" and hearing the long lists of complaints folks have with their councils and professionals I suppose I am lucky in that I have a great DE who I consider a good friend and a seemingly very good (but new) Scout Executive. I have a lot of faith in these guy's professionalism and competence. Perhaps that skews my thinking such that I would involve them more quickly that other folks may. In the situation with the DUI it would be reasonable and prudent to approach the situation on mutiple fronts. Yes, the CO should handle it themselves. But the SE needs to be in the loop as well. My vote would be for this guy to have his BSA membership revoked totally to prevent him from taking his problem down the road (no pun intended). Leaving for camp in an hour. See you Sunday night.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Spend your time working on the handle area making it fit your hand and comfortable. I really like the staff medallions. The Scout shop has a good collection, but it's really easy to have any camporee patch converted to a medallion for a couple bucks. I've used The Hermann Werks, (573) 486-3157. Suggest this to whoever handles the patches for your events. If they send them the artwork from the patch they can scan it and create the medallions. My patch company, Advantage Emblem, handled that for us. When I was day camp director we gave the boy scouts on staff a hiking stave their first year and medallions every year there after. It was a cool tradition. I still see kids running around with the staves at summer camp.