Twocubdad

We had a kid in Cubs who would only eat Burger King chicken nuggets. Our little group often met for dinner before meeting. The dad would drop the kid and his older brother off with the group, drive to Burger King and bring back nuggets for the kid. We could be at McDonald's and the dad would have to go get BURGER KING chicken nuggets for the kid. I died on that hill my rookie year at summer camp with another kid. He only ate bread and dessert. I tried to get him to eat his veggies. Never again. As Scoutldr said, no one dies of malnutrition in a week. You don't want to eat? Don't eat. Too weak/ill to participate? Go home. We spend a lot of time talking with the boys and their parents about this sort of thing from our first brush with the Webelos through summer camp. Except for a real special needs Scout, we expect Scouts to be able to take care of themselves. That means eating right, taking showers and going to the latrine (one year a boy refused to use the latrine because it smelled. Went the whole week without "dropping a duce." He seized up like an old Ford. No one wanted to ride home with him because they thought he would explode.) If a boy doesn't have the maturity/responsibility to take care of his basic bodily functions, maybe Boy Scouts isn't right for him. Sounds to me like you've made reasonable accommodations. Actually, you should be proud that his patrol mates are trying to work with the kid. I don't know that the kids in my troop would. If you go to the trouble of working the kid's likes/dislikes into the menu and he still won't eat, he's just doesn't eat. We don't bring extra or make two meals to scratch one kid's itch. Sounds like the Gettysburg trip is going to be an issue, though. No camp health lodge and no quick trip home. Having his enabler --- uh, I mean Dad along could be more of an problem than a help. Stick to your guns. He's not the only boy in the troop. I'd consider summer camp a test run for the Gettysburg trip. If summer camp is a problem, he stays home from PA. Sooner or later there will be something more important to him than this food thing. He will figure out that if he wants the former he will have to give up the latter. Maybe the Gettysburg trip will be it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Has anyone read DEW's original post? kbandit is the only one who's coming close to the real issue. You guys are reading a whole bunch into some very sparse facts. Where is there any indication that his guys has done ANYTHING wrong, either program-wise or YP-wise? If you want to leap to conclusion, let's ponder the info that the ASM crossed over in February but the troop is only three months old. Add that DEW and the ASM have butted heads over some pretty silly stuff. Even DEW admits he may have a bias towards this guy. If you want to making assumptions, a good one would be that this is a brand new unit and there is some wrangling between the alpha-dogs to see who's first in line. "Who's in Charge" is the underlying problem here; youth protection and program issues are just the topics of the day. DEW, you need help dealing with this guy. Let your committee chairman or another ASM work with him. Chances are he: 1) doesn't see a problems at all, he's just a confrontational, type-A guy; 2) sees this as a personal thing between the two of you; 3) thinks you're a pompous jerk who likes to throw his weight around; or 4) doesn't understand the relationship between the SM and an ASM. In the first three situations you're not going to win with this guy. Let someone else diffuse the situation. And even if it is the fourth situation, given your history with the guy a third party is going to have a better chance of a positive resolution. As for the mine trip, I think you need to put it behind you. I agree with the other leader on the trip and see no YP issue here. Given the situation in your community, how do you think the ASM fellow will respond to being accused of being in an inappropriate situation with a Scout? That could go very badly. And if your intent was for the boys to spend their spare together as a patrol, you should have said so. Instead they were given several options of what they could have done. The way to have handled that situation with the solo Scout and ASM would have been to approach the SCOUT, and say, "Hey, Billy, the rest of your patrol is outside thowing horseshoes, why don't you go hang with them." When Billy leaves, you turn to the ASM and say, "sometimes these little guys can be clingy. I always try to encourage them to hang with their patrols when I can. So who do you like in the World Series?" You have to train ASMs the same way you train the Scouts -- one little nudge at a time. And always praise in public, critique in private.

If I have to operate that defensively, I may as well stay home. If I follow procedure and hold SM conferences privately, but in plain view, how do I defend myself from an accusation that I propositioned the Scout? Shouldn't I have someone listening just in case. If I'm having a public/private meeting, do I have to have a designated witness who sits across the room watching? There may be 40 people in the main room, but if no one is specifically watching..... Maybe we should go with video cameras. If that is the mindset, then whoever said this will be the end of Scouting is right. Awhile back someone -- maybe Eagle92 -- wrote about a female Scouter who was removed from the program because a Scout accused her of getting up during the night and making inaproppriate advances toward him. How do you disprove that? Do we need someone staying up all night to testify that all the adults slept through the night and didn't assault any youth. And of course we need someone to watch the adult watching the adult. Fold the tents guys, we're done. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

So, Spreadsheets, it's your belief that every conversation, every interaction with a Scout must be monitored by another adult?

It's neither here nor there as to what the policy is or how it is it applied, but can some please explain the purpose of separating boy/men and girls/women by hanging a sheet between the sleeping areas? What's the purpose of that? It's just a sheet. I know kids these days are wierd about getting naked in front of each other (at least compared to the generations who grew up showering in large rooms with 30 other naked guys). But what difference does age make? If we are concerned about privacy, fine. Then set a policy which provides for private areas in which to change. But I've never understood the thing about hanging sheets and blankets around.

Sorry, Lisa, I should explain that in our council not only is the Scout required to collect the letters and turn in them in with his applicaton (or the application is rejected by staff without further review), but apparently the letters are supposed to be in sealed envelopes and never seen by the Scout. The references didn't put the letters in envelopes sealed or otherwise, so he just included them in the notebook. I got an earfull because I failed to realize that as Scoutmaster it is my job to know which national policies our council chooses to ignore and to find out the local rules they make up instead.

Sure, why not? No one seems to be following national policy on letters of recomendations, so what the heck? Our council requires the Scout to collect the letters and won't accept the application without them. One of our Eagle candidates earlier this year opend all the letters and had them in page protectors in his notebook. Hey, that works too. Our district Eagle board representative had a duck. But my troop advancement chair blew him off. Next time I think I'll take the letters out of then envelopes and replace them with copies of the national advancement policy regarding recommendations. You think that will get back to the council advancement committee?

Interestingly, we went backpacking the first of the month and none of these dads attended. The Tuesday night before we left the worst offender approached me and said he was going with us. I told him that we were hiking by trail crew (pairing two patrols into a crew) and that the adult slots for the new Scout crew were taken so he would have to hike and camp with the older scouts. And, oh by the way, have you signed up for the SM/ASM training next week? He didn't show up for the campout. Unfortunately for this aspect of things, we do a lot of activity camping where we camp fairly close in and then go shooting, climbing, skiing or the like. You guys are right that sort of camping make it easy for these guys to just hang out.

I think you are over reacting. In a public place there is clearly no YP issue. I like to do Scoutmaster conferences at a local coffee shop because it is in public. Even the issue of the Scout being with the ASM instead of his mates isn't a big deal to me either. It was free time, right? If the Scout wanted to go in the museum instead of the what ever the other boys were doing, so what. It was his choice.

I keep reading this hoping I'll find a solution to the problem we're having with parents on campouts. I've got a couple dads of our first year-scouts who attend about half the campouts and never contribute a thing. The sit around playing cards waiting to be fed. I asked them to do specific things, but they'll work at it for awhile and go back to their card game. They're constantly involving themselves with their Scouts. They're constantly trying to solve petty disputes between their sons and other boys (of course their sons are never at fault), slipping them snacks, and helping set up tents. On campouts where we don't have the room to separate the patrols from the adults the way we would like, it's a disaster. We've tried all the usual approaches -- talking one-on-one, explaining the rationale of leaving the boys alone, giving them things to do, suggesting they register and get trained.... They rarely show up for troop meetings. I've had an ASM who has known these guys through Cubs talk with them. That ended up with one of the dads yelling "you're not going to tell me when I can spend time with my son!" Clearly, they just don't understand the program and see us as a camping club to go hang with their boys. I don't want to implement a lot of petty rules and I want to keep campouts open to parents. I think its good for the program to be transparent and it's a great recruitment tool for leaders. I'm at a loss with these guys. It's going to be ugly, but I'm ready to tell them they're not welcome on campouts. Suggestions?

Keep this to yourself, but we adults have more fun that the kids do.

Stosh, I know you're steamed about this, but objectively reading the info you've posted in the other thread, this doesn't sound like a capital offense. In the other thread you wrote that the patrol walked to the main gate and met their ride there instead of at the parking lot where they were supposed to be. They left camp only 15-20 minutes ahead of the other patrol. I understand the problem they caused you by not following procedure and checking out with the rest of the troop (for all you knew they were at the bottom of the lake). It sounds like they knew they were doing something they shouldn't and did a pretty good con job on a couple adults in the process. If I had to spend a Sunday afternoon tracking down this patrol I, too, would be highly P.O.'d and would be looking for my pound of flesh. But you've also said you've dealt with that situation by removing the Eagle candidate as patrol leader. That seems appropriate. In our troop, I have the authority to immediately suspend Scouts for up to a month. I might suspend the entire patrol for a couple weeks, just to make sure they (and the other Scouts in the troop) understand how serious we are about accountability. But the Eagle app is different. My understanding (based on situation in a nearby troop which went through appeal) is that once the application has the SM's signature, it's pretty much a done deal. As Scoutnut notes, the SM recommendation must be a local thing. It's not a national requirement so withholding it won't mean much. If you really feel holding up the boy's Eagle is the right direction, you should ask to speak before his Board of Review. Here, because BoRs are conducted by the troop with a district representative, I would have may CC and troop adv. chm. on board and agree on a direction prior to the board of review. If your Boards are conducted by the district or council, a meeting with the advancement chairman is appropriate. If they see fit, the board can deny the Scout's advancement but must provde him with a plan for correcting the problem. Certainly, you need to be involved in crafting the plan. Given the boy's goal of getting through Eagle so he can quit, a requirement to spend three to six months making this up to you may be a pretty effective solution.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I think the break between Webelos and the troop needs to be rethunk. The stat which is frequently quoted is through the last year of Webelos and the first year of Boy Scout the dropout rate nationally is 50%. The break between Webelos and Boy Scouts provides too great an opportunity to bail at absolutely the wrong time. I read a study several years ago (in Sports Illustrated, of all places) that around 10- or 11-years-old kids develop the ability to judge their own abilities somewhat objectively. At eight, a kid can wiff every pitch thrown to him all season long and still be convinced he's going to play in the majors one day. By 11 or 12 the kid can evaluate his own ability and admit to himself he stinks at baseball. The result of this is that kids begin to specialize. They begin selecting their own activities instead of just what mom and dad want them to do. While this is a good thing, in my opinion one of the problems with the Scout program is right at this time we make it as easy as possible for a kid to drop out. For five years we've been pumping them that Arrow of Light is the culmination of their Cub Scout careers. We make a huge deal out of crossover (read "graduation"). We give them the perfect go/no go opportunity and make it as painless as possible to quit Scouting. I can't say exactly how, but if there were less of a break between Webelos and Boy Scouts more boys (and their parents) would stick it out. It's not that we need to trap them in a program that no longer interests them, but we shouldn't be holding the door either. The transition needs to me more seamless. I've suggested for years that our Webelos II dens move their meeting nights to the same time as the troop meeting. I'd like to see them join the troop for the gathering activities and opening, but have a totally separate Webelos program. None of the WDLs ever want to change their meeting night -- too much trouble, although they are going to change meeting nights after crossover, so I don't really understand the objection. Perhaps Webelos need to be part of Boy Scouting instead of Cubs? They could still operate as Webelos, just be chartered to the troop not the pack. I'm not sure what that would do to us functionally -- really haven't thought it through. But it would move that go/no go point from age 11 to age 9 when they still belive they can play major league baseball.

Classic example of "in charge" Cub Scout leaders -- who tend to be wrapped pretty tightly around the axel to begin with -- show up for a typically chaotic Scout-run troop meeting and freak out. The problem here is with the parents and the cause is the lack of a solid Webelos-to-Scout transition program. The dirty little secret is that the transition targets the parents more so than the boy. NEVER let Webelos parents just show up for troop meeting without the proper preparation! There is an official phamplet and maybe a DVD out there on how to run a W2BS program (sorry, I can't find it on Scouting.com) but here's how we do it: First, we put a priority on the Webelos dens having Den Chief. This create a personal relationship between the Webelos and at least on familiar face in the troop. 2. Around the first of October, the den chief, another Scout or two and one ASM vist each Webelos II den and invites them to attend the troop campout in November. The Scouts conduct the den meeting program which is to go over the gear the Webelos will need on the campout and tell them what to expect. The ASM is there to answer any parent questions. 3. The main part of the program for the campout with the Webelos is a round-robin with each patrol demonstating some Scout skill. The patrols spend several weeks preparing their demonstration and try to make it above and beyond what the Webelos have seen before. If it's first aid they haul out all the SFX stuff and make it as gory as possible -- arterial bleeds, amputations, sucking chest wounds, etc. For cooking they bake pizzas in a box oven, roast a chicken on a spit or -- the current favorite -- fried Oreos. The webelos parents are encouraged to watch -- but not interrupt -- the demonstrations. In the afternoon, the Scouts take the Webelos on a no-adults tour of the camp (which is our summer camp). The parents stay in the campsite for a detailed orientation session with the troop leaders. 4. In January we invite the Webelos to a troop meeting during which we try to have an activity which will be new to the Webelos, like flint and steel fire building. The troop committee takes the parents next door to the church for more parent orientation. 5. The troop turns out for the crossover pack meeting in February and welcomes the new Scout on the other side of the bridge. 6. March through summer camp the troop guides have a separate program for the new Scout patrols getting them started on advancement; camping skills and getting ready for summer camp. What's going on behind the scenes is we're doing all we can to make the Boy Scouts look good. They are practiced and know what they're doing. The whole troop tries to put our best foot forward FOR THE PARENTS to see how well a Scout-led program can run. We want to parents to come away impressed with our Scouts and to want their son to be part of the program. If they come away thinking this was the most confused cluster-flub they've every witnessed, you get the reaction rrelaljrksw is getting. The kids aren't a problem. We had them hooked with the blood and guts first aid demonstration.

Good for you. I suggested our camporee go to a similar scoring system and was all but run out of the room. Commie, everybody-gets-a-trophy woose, don't you know. Of course the whole Scouting advancement program is based on everyone who meets preset goals "wins." I mean, at the end of the year we don't add up the points and award an Eagle to the first place guy; Life and Star to the second- and third-place Scouts.

From the Cub Scout FAQ on scouting.org: How old (or young) can a boy be to join Cub Scouting? Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting, but they may be eligible to join the Boy Scouting or Venturing program. This doesn't directly answer the question, when do you get kicked out? but I would read this to say that if you are 11 and completed the 5th grade you're done. Same answer for both situations. A more practical question is what's happening with the den at that point? By practice, I think most Webelos II dens dissolve after crossover which is usually in late winter/early spring. If the den is still active through the spring -- let's say you have a combined Webelos I & II den -- and the boys want to hang on until school's out, I suppose they could. But this is weird. Why do these kids WANT to do this? It sounds to me like none of them really want to go into Boy Scouts. You need to talk more with the Scouts and parents and perhaps get the troop leaders involved. What sort of Webelos-to-Boy Scouts transition program is the pack and troop conducting? Personally, once we have finished the program and the bulk of the boys have crossed over, I'd say it's time to kick the rest out of the nest.

Both NYLT and a similar, locally-developed program for patrol level leaders has a hour-long Scoutmaster training session attached. Attending them satisfies the requirement and isn't that big a deal.

How do we deal with homesickness? In advance. I always have a talk with the older Scouts and remind them it is their job to help look after the younger guys. The worst time of day is around dusk. Everyone is tired, things are usually winding down and that's the low point of the day for most people. Part of the talk is about recognizing when a kid is starting to circle the bowl. Not participating, moping around the campsite and sitting off by themselves are the primary symptoms. Of course walking past a tent and hearing a kid on his cot bawling his eyes out is a pretty good indication too. Funny story: A couple years ago when OneCubSon was a the troop guide and directly responsible for the new guys, he walked past a tent and four of them were sitting inside just boo-hooing. He jerked the tent flap open and yelled, "What the hell are you doing?!?" He scared the dickens out of the four who looked at each other then cracked up laughing. I don't think you will find that approach in the BSA literature, but it sure worked! The "cure" for homesickness is activiy and participation. I tell the older guys to make sure the homesick kids are involved. Let them take over your side of checkers or your hand of cards. Invite them to walk up to the trading post and buy them a coke. (I have a standing offer to reimburse anyone who does so.) In short, be a buddy.

A few thought from a troop which no longer participates in camporees: -- Camporees exist to support the units, not the other way around. Our troop has a full schedule of campouts, usually one every month. We have a very successful outdoor program without participating in the district camporees. What does it mean the we need to attend camporees to "support the district"? -- There seems to be an assumption that camporee = skills competition. Why? Well, generally because it's easy. Everyone here can rattle off a list of 12 or 15 competition stations without much thought. First Aid, knot tying, pioneering, fire building, orienteering, hoist your gear over the creek. The big thing here the last few camporees we went to were stations based on dish washing. Gee whiz! It was like Disney World -- kids lined up to go through that one over and over! It's a whole lot more work to put together sexy programs of interest to the Scouts. How about a demonstration from the fire department swift water rescue team? Or something from one of the local military reserve units? A mass-casualty exercise by the local rescue squad? Overnight program by the local astronomy club? All that's a lot of work and logistics to arrange. But I can throw together a dish washing station in 20 minutes. -- MikeF is exactly right in all the things it takes to be competitive at a camporee. But what if my Scoutmaster, in his infinite wisdom and descretion as Chief Program Officer of our troop believes that age-based patrols is a better fit for our Scouts and leaders? Or if our unit emphasizes service at the expense of Scout skills? Should our troop change how we run our program to accommodate one camporee? -- I can go on and on about the insane rules and bureauracy that has developed around our camporees over the years. Everytime a problem or issue would arise a rule would be created. They're now more of a barrier to participation than anything else. The details a very specific to our local event and wouldn't mean much here, but ask yourself: does that sound familiar? -- Old-boy politics. Nuff said. Midnightflyer, I don't mean to discourage you. I ran many district events at the cub level and know well the time, commitment and dedication it takes to pull off an event like that. I can imagine how disheartening it would be to go through all that and have a low turnout. But I would encourage you -- actually the whole district -- to ask themselves some questions: 1. Do we really need/want a district camporee? Do the units have a strong outdoor programs without one? If only a few units need or want help with campouts is there a way the district can better serve them other than a camporee? 2. Is the event fresh or do we do the same thing every year? How could it be reinvigorated? 3. What do the Scouts want to do? Have you ever asked? How many districts have a PLC-style steering committee to get Scout input on the event? 4. If it is a competition, what's it's purpose? Can we have a competition which reinforces more than just Scout skills? How can we reinforce other elements of the overall BSA program? 5. Is the competition fair to all the units or just the ones run like "my" unit? 6. Is the camporee meeting the needs of our units? When was the last time we asked?

Wow. We say the Pledge, do announcements, sing happy birthday and have cookies.

OneCubSon had it last week and missed three days of school (Monday was teacher conference day). He spent the three days on the sofa in the rec room memorizing all the lines of Godfather III (he already has I and II memorized.) TwoCubSon has missed it so far. Doc says the older you are the less likely to catch it. Troop attendance has been hammered the last two weeks -- probably half of normal. I'm concerned about our upcoming campout with the Webelos IIs. Of course the boys run the program and do all the cooking for the Webelos and it takes a lot of manpower. A Scout was working on his patrol menu by himself and I told him he needed to find the rest of the patrol and work together. "I'm it." he tells me. Bingo on the school attendance problem. OneCubSon (I really need to find another nickname, he's now an Eagle and driving) had a really bad cold last year and trying to be consciencious about it, we kept him home for the whole week he was sick. The school really hammered him with makeup work. Basically, they will let you make up the work, but you're on your own doing it. He's taking a bunch of AP courses, so missing the class discussions and work was a problem. And with after missing another day or two here and there, if he had caught the flu last spring, he would have been looking at summer school. If schools don't want sick kids coming, they really need to rethink their policies.

I've never heard that the PL shouldn't be on the duty roster and I'm not sure I would agree with it. I don't think that "supervision" is an equitable trade-off for helping with the routine chores of the patrol. I'm quite sure the Scouts wouldn't think so. The patrol leader is not the nanny. Removing him for something the rest of the patrol did apart from him is out of line.

The best advice you've been given thus far is that it's not your problem. The pack committee chairman and treasurer are responsible for finances and need to handle it. My input would be that there needs to be a consistent policy throughout the pack. Of course, the policy may state den dues are at the descretion of the den leader. But I do believe it is reasonable to put some controls in place. For example, you may want to set a maximum amount the dens can charge. It would also be reasonable to ask the DLs to treat the den funds as a petty cash account and note the weekly income and expenses somewhere. The whole thing could be tracked on a heavy duty envelope with the money and receipts kept inside. At the end of the year the DLs turn the envelopes in to the treasurer. Back in the day, I remember my mom kept the den dues envelope in the kitchen cabinet. Dues were 10 cents a week then. Many was the morning my dad would put a dollar in the den envelope and my brother and I would go to school with a pocket of dimes for lunch money. Whatever you come up with, have your Chartered Organization Representative sign off on it. After all, the money belongs to the Chartered Organization. Then they policy has some mantle of authority if anyone wants to grumble. But the world is wide open as to how the pack chooses to handle it. There is bound to be some solution that makes everyone reasonably happy.

Yeah, sorry. When I re-read it, it came off a little more snotty than I had intended. I was going for sarcastic, not snotty. No offense intended. My apologies.

A lot of units have local "Polar Bear" awards or something similar. But it is absolutely a local unit thing. There is no national standard of what consititues cold weather camping. Around here it's anything below freezing. A year ago or so there was an article in Boys' Life or Scouting about a troop in Alaska in which the boys had to get X-nights camping at -20 and Y-nights at -40 to earn the patch, or something insane like that. Most of the big patch vendors (I like Advantage Emblem www.advantageemblem.com ) will have a stock patch for something like this which you can customize.