blw2

yep, Hedgehog covered it pretty well. I think it's important to set the expectation early and strong, of everyone helping. Tough love is needed..... point of fact, a den can't exist without a leader, so if you don't have a leader you don't have a den. So everyone goes home early..... I'm not sure about the new program, but in the old program Tigers was meant to be a shared leadership role..... meaning that it doesn't ALL fall on the one parent that steps up. Each week or each month is handled by an adult/scout pair. the registered leader is there to help guide and steer..... making sure it stays on the track of the underlying scout aim and program..... rules, and so on.... but it shouldn't all fall on one set of shoulders to run the meetings. That changes as the scouts get older. I agree that 12 is the max for a den. Actually based on experience I think that is a little too big but it can work. Another thought.... it might help to run things like some packs I've heard of, where ALL dens meet the same night in the same place.... so EVERY meeting is like a pack meeting with breakout sessions for each den. I'm just thinking this could help in sharing the load as things get started Encourage older scouts to help younger scouts..... especially the WEBELOS, if you have any. And for WEBELOS, really encourage the WEBELOS leaders to study the patrol method of the troop level and work towards that. Something we failed with as I was coming up through with my son.

Yes, I ordered it, and have had it in hand maybe a couple months now. I flipped through it, but I just can't seem to get myself to really study it. It just looks to me like so many other BSA publications..... too many words..... i'm getting sleepy......

We're using troopwebhost. It seems a little dated in both form and function, and honestly I'm not convinced the scouts use it at all... but as treasurer it has pretty decent tools for the money stuff

yeah, and I really wanted to get on the "Blob" too! (google "lake blob" if you don't know what it is)

ok, how about the impact that this practice has on "Leave No Trace" That is the other argument I hear against doing things like this..... "It's filling up the landfill!" Don't get me wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate here..... I'm not necessarily opposed to it..... I don't find them particularly appetizing & I'd rather have a properly fried egg, browned in butter any day, but that's just me.

i think you are exactly right with this. Based on my experience and what i've seen....The "typical" WEBELOS DL doesn't know the 1st thing about troop life and the patrol method. It's only natural that they would continue marching on continuing the same old Cub program. The training just isn't there.... and by then they certainly aren't reading the handbooks! Even if they are former scouts, odds are really great that they don't have a good handle on this transition idea and many my not really even know or remember the patrol method, and they certainly aren't sitting around spending lots of time pondering these issues like we do here.

I almost agree I do think that much more time should be allocated as free, but some structured activities are good. My opinion is that there should be huge segments of time allocated for troop activities.... doing the stuff that the troop wants to do, maybe fun, maybe some time spent helping the younger guys, maybe working on a specific thing as a troop or as a patrol, such as working together on paddling for an upcoming troop canoe trip.... and there should be huge amounts of time for the individual scouts to do the stuff that desertratt described.... hanging with friends at the trading post for example. Lastly, I do think that the MB opportunities at camp are good. I wouldn't want to suggest set limits, but I'm thinking it might be better to encourage something like signing up for no more than one or two badges. Make them something meaningful for the scout and not just something to fill up the schedule. Some over-achiever type scouts may choose more, but it should be a choice in my opinion, and not an expectation. I'm trying to not look at this from an adult perspective here....I think all these things would make camp much more fun AND meaningful for the scouts. This past summer was my 1st summer camp experience since I was a scout. I was there as a supporting Scouter. I managed to find time to jump in the lake exactly ZERO times..... and I wasn't signed up for a bunch of merit badge classes either! That just aint right!!! The scouts didn't either by the way. Free swim time, for example was just very limited. There just simply wasn't enough free time

oh that probably comes form the whole plastic BPA thing.... or the big push about cooking with plastic wrap in the microwave that hit a few years back.... Thing is, I doubt if "show me where it is written" would work, because I wouldn't be surprised a bit if a person could come up with countless written references to uphold his position..... no matter which position he holds.

I can only answer the part about getting adults..... I would go. In fact I have often wanted to go on one of those winter snow cave excursions.... seems like a fun scout activity..... sadly not much of that going on here in Florida! I've lived and spent plenty of time in snowy locations though, so I do know "what I'm getting into" I'm reminded of a backpacking trip I took with some friends in college.... not a scout thing, but it sortof applies. I was using borrowed gear.... a mummy bag with no ground pad or insulation That was my coldest experience..... got down to around 20F and was I ever cold! I have experienced much colder, but that was my coldest camping without proper gear.... brrr....

Yep, my son also crossed over at 10.... but honestly I don't think it's the age or the number so much as personal level and interest. An inherent problem of the mixing of the ages.... based solely on age I actually think Hedgehog's post nails it pretty much. A 50 miler would probably be out of the range of interest bit only for a very few exceptional 10 year olds...... but a lot of the stuff he describes is the kind of adventure these boys are looking for! To exclude them based on age is just sad. And his point about servant leadership is spot on, mixed age patrols or not! My son at a very young 11 now, is I would say someplace further along on the adventure scale than the OP's son, but he has some limitation re how much he's willing to do more based on laziness I'm sad to say. Still, he is perfectly capable and even interested in some of that stuff.

welcome scouterdog! This can be a great place to brainstorm. I look forward to it! what are JSN?

I had to go back and reread your original post to better understand why he would dread going to the troop meetings so much. Actually sounds remotely similar to something i am a little frustrated with in our troop for the young guys. It sounds like the troop is excluding the younger guys on some events. In our troop, they are re-structuring to have a venture patrol, to do stuff for the older guys.... but the thing is some of what they are talking about doing are certainly within the interest and ability of the younger guys too. Maybe I'm just projecting since I have not heard much complaining form my son and the others, but I sure feel like the exclusionary idea is discouraging. I'd get it for some activities that just aren't age appropriate, but I figure the young guys want a bit of adventure too! In this case though, it seems that your son might want a bit more by the way of planned and organized fun activities.... Since the troop is doing stuff that excludes him and his friends, maybe he and his patrol could plan some patrol activities that are more appealing to them. Maybe a suggestion to him might get him and his patrol to pitch it to the SM (now I'm assuming he's in a "new scout" patrol) Let them be in control of doing some stuff they want to do! Maybe work towards a merit badge might be a good kick start.

exactly how it seems it should be in my thinking.

I have another example to add.... emails announcing fund raisers.... that I know were conceived and arranged by adults. There may have been an adult to scout announcement made at a troop meeting, but I'm not sure about that. Anyway, My son does not check emails. I have tried the strategies that some of you outlined above. He will reluctantly read if I tell him to, but I think like @@qwazse, i think..."condition the behavior you want" & I have no intention of reminding him to do something like that. and the times I have done this, the message seems to go in one ear and back out the other. Furthermore, I feel like the Life scout should be doing the asking as @@cchoat suggests and I feel like all these others things should be coming from and to the scouts too. I want my son coming to me asking for me to take him to x, y, or z. I have no intention of conditioning or grooming a "voluntold" attitude. I have suggested this idea to the committee, saying that turnout for these events might be better if the scouts come up with the idea or at least buy into it. So far, they just don't seem to be getting it..... & I'm figuring they probably think I'm being a lazy un-involved parent for not voluntolding my son to be there.

OK, so I get an email from an adult, usually a committee member, or perhaps the SM or an ASM. it says something like "_____ would like to invite the Scouts to come out on ____ to help with his Eagle Project...." or "We have selected to do ____ as a service project. Please come out on ____ and bring shovels and gloves....." (and in this case I know the "we" is not scouts) or something similar..... You know your son does not check email. Would you pass along the message to see if he wants to go? Would you make him go?

I've never tried the pie irons, but it is another piece of equipment to keep after..... and I like to keep things simple... which might make one think that I'm a fan of foil packets nope Those things seem like such a great novelty, but in my experience they generate more of a fire drill.... or like herding cats. I'll admit to only having done them with inferior ingredients, but as a general rule I'll pass. In our pack, we had a dad that prided himself as a pitmaster. He'd usually bring along one of those tow behind smoker/grilles and do up a bunch of meat. We'd normally do bulk purchased precooked pancakes, sausage and bacon, etc for breakfast. Simple cold cuts for lunch, the bbq for dinner. Usually cereal for the pack-up morning. It was a decent enough routine IF everyone likes BBQ. I'm a fan of teaching scouts how to cook individually or for small groups myself.... more like you might do backpacking or on a back country canoe trip ..... but I would like to try pie irons some day.

yes, their in giving..... not mine as an amazon consumer BUT it's ours as a troop that we are receiving. I'm wondering now about any thresholds of receiving that might raise a flag to the IRS....and I think this is to jjlash's point. to grossly exaggerate....let's say the troop brings in a million $ donations this year. I'm thinking that might trigger a closer look by someone.... just a guess.

It struck me last night at the troop meeting, how scouting is like the proverbial village that it takes to raise a good kid. A whole bunch of well intentioned adults coming together to help each other in raising their kids to be good adults. We had a few adults leading a merit badge class before the meeting, then the same ones and others leading the troop meeting giving your men a chance to spread their wings in leadership, public speaking, companionship, and so on. A few other adults sitting together taking a class to become MB counselors in the next room. And still a few others conducting Boards of review, giving young men practice that will pay dividends in future job interviews. It wasn't a case where every parent of every scout there was actively involved at that moment, but at other times many of them are in various ways. It really is a village with a common goal helping each other, even if we aren't always on the same page.

what does he want to do? If he was my son and wanted to skip the AOL and move on to the troop now, I would support that decision 100%, and not look back. Honestly, it's about his growth and challenge and adventure. That AOL award patch really doesn't mean much..... except from the perspective of finishing what you start. But if he just wanted to finish, that's good too....

were there harps playing in the background, and a nice white clouded fog surrounding but not in your yard? I've never seen this vision before.... so I can only imagine it as a dreamlike state....

adventure.... honestly I think that gets to the crux of what the boys want too. I see it in my son, who is not really all that concerned with getting his achievements signed off. Yeah, I could not have told you what the Girl Scout Equivalent was if I had not read it in a school newsletter just this morning..... and of course the name was accompanied by "..., the highest award in Girl Scouts." Pretty sure you can just write "Eagle Scout", and almost all folks will know what that means.... even non-scouts.

As I think about this, I find the concept kinda funny. In our case... just based on geography we have only three troops to choose from.... well four, but one of those is stretching the distance Several of our webelos went to the troop that there older brothers in and that their dads are scouters in. The other troop is at our pack's co, so the buildings and rooms are familiar, the people are familiar, the older scouts are familiar. And the last troop was tied more closely to a different government school pack, so the place was unfamiliar, and our scouts didn't know any of the scouts or adults....and quite honestly they weren't really even friendly or welcoming when we visited There really wasn't any shopping going on I figure most boys will go a) where their friends go, and/or b) where their older brothers go, and/or c) to the one in a familiar location. (their school or church) The rest of this, is by my estimation, and adult driven concept.

Duplicate thread posts in other one...

Well, one guess is maybe its because of the way GS is structured very differently. It seems like it's really more like a roundup effort to form new troops From what I have seen with two daughters now in it, and a wife as a newly minted Daisy assistant leader is that GS troops don't really recruit. Recruiting is more on the council level. (or whatever their equivalent is) a GS troop is more like our patrol, and it's normally formed either form a group of already existing friends (or gang in Baden Powell's words), or as a new throw together group from one of these recruiting night efforts at school. Once the troop is formed, they may gain a few or loose a few along the way, but it's really just a journey with a definite end. It's not like our troops which are more like a perpetuating thing, looking for the next generation

Ok, I went and dug up the old document I had worked up, thinking I would help coach our WEBELOS with things to look for and things to ask. This was written more as a draft or notes to me, not as something to be issued. I came up with it after input form several folks here, as well as from other sources. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, i never finished the document and never really used it Maybe it'll spark something for what you are trying to accomplish. Troop Shopping Questions: My thought is to sit and observe the meeting, and then set aside time towards the end to have an open and unstructured dialog with their Scouts..... or at least 2 or three of them. a scout that's new with the troop, and an older scout that has been with the troop for a while, and maybe one in between what do you think of the troop? New scout - have you advanced? what's the most fun part of the troop? What is the worst thing about the troop? what was your favorite campout so far? who leads your troop? Give us an example of how a camp out is planned from its creation to loading the cars on Friday night who does the cooking? Buys the groceries? plans the menu? which patrol are you in? Who's your patrol leader? How are your patrols formed? Who decides? Do the patrols meet separately, outside of troop meetings, or have patrol outings? How are the decisions made such as where you are going and when? where do you camp or go, and how often? What do the parents or leaders do at campouts? Describe your Scoutmaster in one word (or less)... and maybe ask the adults things like who leads your troop? How long has adult leadership been in place? How long do you expect to stay on? Age split of the troop (%) 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or campouts?) What do you expect from the parents?â€. (training, committee, who camps, who drives, who leads and so on) How big is your troop? How Assistant SM’s? how many boys? ask Adults - Who leads your troop? ask Boys - Who leads your troop? How long has the leadership been in place? Are any getting ready to move on? (aged out kids or other reasons) How are the decisions made such as where you are going and when? What sorts of trips do you do? special outings normal outings? high adventure? How is your youth participation rate in activities (%)? How much interaction is there between adults and boys? How are your patrols formed? Who decides? Do your patrols get reformed periodically? For what reasons? Who drives it? Who decides? What nights and times are your meetings? Do you have any new scout normal practices, special patrols or duties? What leadership positions are scouts allowed to have in the first year? Second year? What are the requirements for these leadership positions? (Hint: they should have a document they can email to you) How do you handle disciplinary issues? Are your adult leaders trained? What training do they have? Are your youth leaders trained? What training do they have? Age split of the troop (%) 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or campouts?) Do you have rangemasters or RSO’s in the troop? Merit badge counselors in the troop? How are merit badges taught and what prompts it? What if anything do you require from parents?