Trevorum

A friend of mine in North Forida Council said he regularly invites guest speakers to his troop's Courts of Honor. A 5 or 10 minute inspiration from a public figure or well known personality. We have not done this, but I think it is a superb idea. I'd like to start this tradition, but would like to hear from y'all about your experiences. Do any of you have guest speaker programs? Any advice?

Adrianvs, very well formulated and I will try to answer you. As I stated, I believe the overwhelming majority of the laws and rules in our society (say, 99.9%) are good and just, having stood the test of time. (Other places may not be so lucky.) However, history shows that there have been many laws and rules which were indeed unjust and which ethics demanded be disobeyed. Perhaps one law in a thousand. Some big, some small. Some may have been created with less than honorable intent, others may simply not have been well thought out. It doesn't matter. The point is that a finite number of the rules and laws we all face are just plain wrong and blindly following the rules all of the time (while easier)will inevitably lead one into unethical behavior of some kind or another. So how to avoid this? I teach my sons to follow the rules and laws they encounter because, as was pointed out, that is how our society gets along and avoids anarchy. However, if they sincerely believe a rule or law to be wrong, then it is their ethical duty to try to change it (by means short of violence). Adults may also elect to disobey such, as long as they fully accept the potential consequences. I make the distinction between adults and children because, as you have pointed out, children are not yet fully formed, either physically or ethically. By way of illustration, I have told them about the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Good, ethical, and law-abiding folks went to jail for purposefully disobeying laws they knew to be wrong. They suffered, but made that choice knowingly. Conversely, and at nearly the same time, atrocities were committed by American servicemen who blindly followed orders. I hope that my sons will not face such wrenching injustice in their lives, but more subtle forms still flourish. I am just a simple fellow, not an ethicist, and so I am sure my way of thinking about this ancient topic has flaws. I am certainly willing to learn. However, this is the path of honor that I learned from my father and I have tried to teach it to my family.

Bob, I thought you had invited a discussion about obedience and disobedience. If you disagree with my opinions, there is no need to be insulting. Calling me "lazy and self centered" is neither courteous nor Scoutlike. My comments were very general and I did not refer to any particular rule or law. I specifically excluded cases involving personal comfort and convenience. Further, my examples were just that and I certainly did not invite comparisons or make any allusions to personal virtue. But I suspect you know that. My intent was to point out that there are indeed circumstances in which disobedience is ethical. I wish that the jailers at Abu Graib had been taught that lesson. I believe that 99.9% of our rules and laws are good and just. But not all. Some are just plain wrong. I believe that young people need to be taught to make ethical choices, not just blindly follow others. I am disappointed in the ad hominem nature of your response and I will consequently decline to engage further on this issue. Henceforth I shall take advantage of the forum's "Ignore" feature, which I believe several other posters have recommended in similar circumstances.

bring patches!

Hoom, welcome to the party (better late than not at all!) Yes, flame wars in other forums can be eye-popping! Some people live for the excitement. But then, they aren't bound by a promise to obey the Scout Oath and Law. I encourage your son to join Scouting. He will have lots of fun and will be a better person for it, regardless of his religious beliefs (or those of his parents). Even if you decide not to register as an adult, you will still be able to help your son advance in Cubs.

Some highly moral people firmly believe that they have an ethical obligation to disobey rules which are wrong. Not rules which interfere with their "personal comfort or convenience" as Bob suggests, but which they know to be just plain wrong. This is called civil disobedience and it is a respected avenue for effecting social change. These people knowingly disobey rules, laws, and regulations on purpose and in full acceptance of the consequences. Gandhi and Rosa Parks are famous examples, as was the unknown student in Tiananmen Square. Had things gone poorly, the men who signed the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged as traitors, and they knew it. Just because a rule or a law exists does not make it just. Blind obedience is always easier that civil disobedience, but it is not always right. I believe that as Scouters we all have the responsibility to help our nation's future leaders learn to make ethical choices.

In the end, the scouts and their families will always end up supporting the unit financially, either through direct cash contributions, or through donating their labor in a fund raiser. Fund raisers, be they popcorn drives, pancake breakfasts, or making & selling birdhouses always involve a significant amount of donated labor. It's easy to forget that when assessing fundraising options. I'm curious as to how many units give their members the option of donating cash directly to the unit? This would eliminate the considerable diversion of time and energy away from program. On the other hand, as ScoutNut points out, there are non-financial advantages to be had from fundraisers. For example, our annual BBQ is a big event that serves to bring in all of the new parents in one role or another. It nets us about $7k after expenses. If we eliminated the BBQ, we'd have to collect $100 per scout annually. That would be much easier, but would probably be less successful on several counts.

I don't know how many lodges have paperwork from 35 years ago. That was before computer record keeping. On top of that, many lodges of the 1970s and before are no longer extant. That was my situation. No one had any records of my 1968 membership, so my current lodge just took my word.

Excellent topic! I always like to hold Eagle conferences on Sunday afternoons. Its a good time for quiet reflection. The first thing I do is help the candidate review all of his paperwork. We don't want him to get to the BoR and find that he is missing a signature or a critical date. At this point, a couple of fellows have come up short and we have had to reschedule the conference, generally for the following week. We review his Eagle project and I ensure that he has all the documentation. We discuss leadership and what he has learned in the process. We then talk for a while about living the Scout Oath and Law, and I, too, ask several open ended questions that get the Scout to think about his life, his goals, his values. What does Scouting mean to him. What kind of person he wants to grow up to be. I like to close by challenging him, by emphasizing that the Eagle is not just another rank, that it is for the rest of his life - is he ready for that?

Thanks for that link; it's truly a fascinating debate that's going on in our culture. The last line in the article has a great quote: "I'm saying that the culture is changing and ... within 10 years or so, people will look back and wonder: What was the big deal? Why did this once seem so big on our radar screens?" The same could easily have been said for giving women the right to vote, for extending civil rights to African Americans, for integrating the physically disabled into society ...

Ed said, "If a Scout came to me and wanted to learn more about God, I would be happy to teach him." (emphasis added) Absolutely, that's the way it should work. Same here (although my views of god are very different from yours). Neither of us should seek to impose our beliefs on anyone, but making information available about religious beliefs is a good thing.

Hello all! After I took WB and learned all the lore, I remembered a leather woggle in the collection of neckerchief slides that I inherited from my father. Pulling it out, it sure looks like a very old WB woggle. My dad never said anything about WB, but he was a summer camp director for Los Angeles Area Council in the 1950s and early 1960s (before I was a Bobcat) and he very well could have been WB trained. I'd like to know. Does anyone know of any way I could check on this? Are there course rosters from the 1950s on file in some BSA archive somewhere? Thanks in advance!

Howdy back atcha', 007! You don't say wheere y'all hail from, but from your lingo I reckon you ain't fer a Yankee!

It may be true that "the quest for knowledge always "wins" eventually, regardless of the efforts of some governments or religions to stifle the process". However, do we here in the US really want to wait for several decades while this process runs its eventual course? Can the USA afford to let the rest of the world pass us by? Packsaddle alludes to the early 20th century debacle that stifled biological research in the Soviet Union for decades. Can we aford to allow a modern Lysenkoism infect us? I see this happening increasingly and it is troubling.

My definition of "geezer' is anyone who's ever been offered the "senior discount" ...

pack, you make excellent points. The current attempts to insert biblical creationism into public school science curricula are scary cases in point. In Kansas, some folks are even trying to redefine 'science' so that their approaches will fit into the socially acceptable 'good' way of knowing. see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/15/AR2005051500513_pf.html I've never understood how some people can willingly accept SOME kinds of scientifically obtained knowledge (eg., chemistry) and yet reject other fields of knowledge obtained through the same scientific method (eg. biology). It's a mystery.

In another thread, the issue came up of privacy vs. Youth Protection during Scoutmaster conferences. These need to be private conversations between the SM and the candidate, but also need to comply with the YP policy of no one-on-one. This is an excellent point, and worth discussing. Where do you hold your SM conferences? IMO, the ideal time and location is on campouts. I like to go off 50 yards or so and sit down with the candidate in full sight of the rest of the camp. However, sometimes other times are necessary. I prefer not to do these conferences during troop meetings because there is always so much else going on and I want to give the fellow my whole attention. Occasionally I will hold a SM conference at my home, sitting on the front porch, in view of the neighbors and with my wife home.

I think part of the problem is the "Little League" mentality that many parents of new Cub Scouts bring to BSA. Unless they are clearly told otherwise up front, they are perfectly happy to let the "coach" do everything except for maybe bringing a snack now and then. They are happy dropping their kids off to be "babysat" an hour every week. The easiest way out of this (very common) situation is to avoid it up front of course by insisting at joining that ALL new parents sign up either as a leader or on one committee or another. The pack calendar including committee meeting dates should be handed out at this time. You are right on about these key 3 using the campout to try and make it work, but it may be too late for the current (school) year. Urge the 3 key volunteers to do things differently next year. They are to be thanked for their dedication but they should be helped to see that they are encouraging the problem to continue by allowing everyone else off the hook. Next fall should start with a clean slate for this pack. Some handouts explaining all the different roles would help, along with a roster/signup sheet that makes it clear that EVERYONE is expected to volunteer.

Dug, re safety. Down here, we have t'storms that unexpectedly become real gulley washers. So when setting up camp, we look at the terrain regardless of the forecast. Never camp in a drainage! Two years ago at summer camp, we were evacuated in the middle of the night due to flooding. Lost some gear but the scouts were all fine. (We take this seriously - The national rainfall record was set in our county - 39 inches in 24 hours!)

Hello Seattle! This is a set-up, right? you being from rainy Seattle and all? Our troop camps "rain or shine". On Friday nights, new parents dropping off Johnny for the campout will ask, "Rain is forecast! What if it rains?" The answer always is, "We'll get wet." Well, hopefully not too wet. As Brian Birdsall said, "There's no such thing as bad weather, only poor choices in clothing."

given to our troop on 5/16/05. If you like it, you're welcome to use it also -------------------- I know that all of you will be able to relate to what I'm going to say - either through direct experience, or from hearing your parents say it over and over ... Gasoline is really getting expensive! It's gotten to the point where I spend $25 or $30 every time I fill up, and I have a SMALL car! So I've taken to stashing two twenty dollar bills in a special pocket in my wallet, just to make sure that I'll have enough money for gas each week. Well, the other morning I was on my way to work and I was low on gas so I pulled into this gas station. I put the nozzle in my tank and watched the ticker click off $5 ... $10 ... $15 ... $20. Finally, it clicked off at $24.93. I rounded it up to $25 and went in to pay. There was a new clerk behind the counter, a young guy maybe 21 or 22 years old. Maybe in college. So I pull out my wallet to pay, but I can only find ONE of my $20 bills! I owe this guy $25 but I only have $20! I'm getting pretty worried, so he asks me, "Do you have any credit cards?" I tell him, "No, I'm sorry I don't use those any more." But I KNOW I have another $20 bill in my wallect somewhere, so I'm tearing it apart, taking everything out - my driver's license, my voter ID card, my health insurance card, everything. He looks down and sees my Scout registration card and says, "You're a scout." As I look up, this fellow, whom I have never seen before, takes a $5 bill from his own wallet and puts it on the counter. "It's OK", he says. "You can pay me next time." Now this fellow had NEVER seen me before in his LIFE. Why do you think he did that? Think about it ...

I'll never forget being instructed how to conserve paper by "use, fold in half, use again, fold in half again, use again, fold in half again... etc." We sniggered at the time, but it was a useful lesson.

IMHO, it's all part of the trend where the uniform is becoming much more of a parade uniform and less of a true field uniform. There's a lot more fruit-salad 'glop' on our uniforms these days. (and this from a patch collector!)

yup. I use GPS in my job all the time and I still screw up now and then. It's accurate, it's precise, but it's not easy.

A long time ago, in a council far, far away ... Birdwatching was an Eagle required Merit Badge. And, for a LONG time, a working knowledge of Morse Code (or semaphore) was a First Class requirement. But those days are long gone. We don't need those skills anymore and they are no longer even considered to be "Scout skills". The point is that as society changes and as technology changes, so does the BSA (albeit verrrry slowly ). One day, practical GPS ability will be a standard scout skill. Count on it. My guess is 10-15 years.