SR540Beaver

scoutldr, Many of your OA boys may be wearing green shirts, but they could only be elected while wearing tan shirts. Girls can't wear tan shirts.

Gern, In general, you daddy was right. However, things done in the transparancy of daylight and things done behind closed doors can be miscontrued. Remember when I said that perception is reality for some people? I've been on the receiving end of nasty rumors and it is no fun....regardless of how innocnet I am. I have a former female co-worker that I became very good friends with. My wife knew of our friendship and had no problem with it. To this day, many of my former co-workers are still convinced that we were sleeping together because "it is impossible for a man and woman to be that good of friends without something else going on". I am an honorable person and it DOES matter to me what people think of me. Do I still befriend women? Sure. Do I put myself in one on one situations with them that will allow people to assume the worst? Nope. Been there, done that, never again. I gave up smokless tobacco that I dearly loved because it set the wrong example for a troop of 60 scouts. I think I can work out sleeping arrangements so as not to let those with active imaginations imagine things.

"But not all 14 year olds are mature enough to resist the temptation." I know some 50 year olds that this would apply to also. "So pratically, I'd say the rule stands for youth." And as an example, so should the rule for adults. "I certainly hope that if my son found himself in a situation that he needed to share his tent with a female, he would have learned that it is not immoral and an open invitation to take advantage of the situation." I'd hope the same thing about my son too. However, I'd opt for giving up my tent for the young lady and tent with my son. "As Americans, I think we are a bit too uptight with our sexuality and it works against us. Just look at how this discussion devolved. Adults who normally follow the Scout Law and Oath, if put in a tent together will resort to unabashed sexual pleasures as soon as the tent flap is closed. That is the example you are setting for the youth." I've gone back thru the thread and have yet to find a post where the discussion devolved into what you describe. Unfortunately, perception is often reality in many people's minds. A reputation lost (even unjustly) is a hard thing to regain. The wiser choice is to set a good example and not place yourself in a position where you actions (however noble) can be negatively questioned. I believe that has been the gist of what most folks have been saying.

Gern, Can one assume that since you are comfortable with providing this example to young people on a campout, you would have no problems with letting the male and female members of a Venturing Crew share tents?

From the G2SS. Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

Ed, Don't kid yourself on common law marriage as just playing house. I knew of a guy who had been involved in a common law marriage and his "wife" got half of his retirement fund (against his will) when they decided to split the sheets. I'm sure the laws vary from state to state, but it often amounts to more than playing house in the eyes of the state. Gern, What planet did you come from? While the traditional US societal norms takes a dim view on unmarried people spending the night together (even non-sexual) in front of children, there are societies where you can get killed for showing an ankle or wrist. Logically, no one should give a moments concern to two mature adults of the opposite gender sleeping side by side in the same enclosure. After all, they are simply resting their body as nature dictates. Social mores, folkways, standards and traditions view it differently though. Probably because of the occasional event that could take place nine months later when other parts of "nature" take their course within that enclosure.

ohadam, It isn't our decision. All we can decide is whether we will go along with it or not. I don't have as much of a problem with the atheist side as the gay side. From my experience, religion does not play that important of a role in scouting units. When we have a "scout's own" on campouts, it is very generic. We promote the boys doing their duty to "God" and that that instruction comes thru their home and "church". I can see room in that for boys who are not "churched". Now, before I get labeled as homophobic, my sister is a lesbian and my best friend from college is gay. I love them both dearly, want them to be happy and feel like they can do what they want as adults. That being said, I don't think allowing gay registered leaders provides the right example to young heterosexual (vast majority) boys. That is just me, I realize others feel differently. Bottom line is that the BSA gets to decide their membership requirements and we get to decide whether we can accept them and live with them or not. Will it change with time? Probably. Will it change sooner or later? My guess is that it will be MUCH later than sooner.

Again, BSA is a private organization that legally can set their membership requirements as they see fit. National grants charters to local councils. Local councils grant charters to charter organizations. They are under NO obligation to grant a charter to any group they chose not to. You could take them to court if they refused to grant you a charter, but guess what......you'd lose.

Lynda, IMHO, that is a really poor excuse for not getting married. The reason companies have benefits set up that way is quite simple. Their employee supported his family with his weekly paycheck. He dies and the family loses that financial support. When the spouse remarries, the financial support returns thru the paycheck of the new spouse. Why should the company continue to pay support when the "new" family is just as capable of being self supporting as the "old" family. If I were to marry a widow with children, it would certainly be with the full expectation and acceptance that I would be financially supporting everyone. I don't mean to be disrespectful and I'm not criticizing you, but it seems selfish and greedy for someone to not marry just so they can get additional money from a company. As it stands now, they have both of their incomes PLUS benefits from the company. If they married, they would lose the extra cash. I would be hard pressed to not marry and/or adopt just for extra spending cash. What kind of lesson does that teach the children?

The ClassB website has some Troop website templates you can check out at http://www.classb.com/resources/website/

Do we ever check how many who don't follow the rules have a good and safe time, that works well for their kids? And if that is the case, do we reconsider the rule? The speed limit says 40, but I've never had a problem doing 65.....should the speed limit be reconsidered? Most rules have a reason behind them. The fact that someone chooses to break a rule and is fortunate enough to not get hurt isn't a reason for doing away with a rule. Besides, there is that whole "honor" thing that E mentioned to consider.

Marriage has been a social standard since pre-recorded history and is something that will never go out of style. There is nothing wrong with expecting adults on a BSA campout to follow the social norm. Would those who have no problem with an unmarried couple sharing a tent on a campout also have no problem if a nudist decided to go natural on the next campout? I mean, what would be wrong with it and whose business is it anyway? God gave everyone private parts, why should it be a big deal to let someone see yours?

I've been known to partake in a video or on-line game or two on occasion and I still consider myself a fairly productive member of society. Regulating gaming, like television, skateboarding, friends, etc. is all in your parenting skills. God gave them to you, use them. To those who don't believe in God, think of it as common sense.

eaglebeader, I believe you are incorrect in saying that background checks are at the council's discretion. That may have been true in days gone by, but a background check is now done on every adult application and has been for a number of years now. Of course, if a person who engages in unlawful activity has been fortunate enough to have never had a run in with the law, they would pass the background check with flying colors.

I've been lobbying for some time to add the Reclining merit badge......but I have not heard back from national for some reason.

Until Phillip Moore of BSA National Risk Management starts going council to council and district to district to teach the COR training materials, the COR's will be learning from the material put out by BSA and taught by well meaning volunteers.....regardless of how "out of date" he says it is.

We have 52 scouts attending summer camp and 11 adults so far. Most of the adults are registered, but not all. The SM and I have split a week. I'm going Sunday thru Wednesday and he is going Wednesday thru Saturday. He always leads the high adventure trip each summer and uses about 2 weeks of vacation to do so. We have a fellow ASM who can easily arrange the time off and enjoys being "summer camp SM". The camp we are going to is 3.5 to 4 hours away.

Im with FScouter here, don't teach Webelos too many Boy Scout skills too often. The program will be boring to them if once they get to scouts.....they've already been there and done that. The best preparation for Boy Scouts that you can do is to get them outdoors. If your district or council runs a summer resident camp, fall weekend campouts, etc., take advantage of them. You can even plan your own Webelos den campouts. Just get the boys used to camping. They don't need to do everything a Boy Scout does like setting up tents, cooking, cleaning, etc. They do need to be used to sleeping in a tent in the woods and riding out a good rain. They need to get used to using a latrine. Being comfortable in the outdoors is the best prep for moving to Boy Scouts and being ready to learn all the skills they need once they are in the troop.

Unit leaders are covered in excess of any personal coverage they might have, or if there is no personal coverage, the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis. This I think is incorrect. BSA coverage is primary on registered adults, and excess on unregistered adults (parents) who are acting as leaders. Da exception is vehicle liability (cars and boats) where BSA insurance is excess of the person's vehicle coverage. That's been true since 2001 according to our SE. Beavah, If you look back at the original thread, I posted the web link to BSA's site where I cut and pasted the information from. I wasn't giving my opinion. I was giving you chapter and verse from the BSA. Just go to the BSA site and type insurance into the search box. You'll get a good number of hits, but they all basically lead back to what I posted in the other thread. In fact, the section right before the part I copied and pasted lists the responsibilities of the CO and insurance is not one of them.

funscout, I'm not involved in Girl Scouts, so I can't answer to that. I would assume that it isn't allowed just like in Boy Scouts. Now, having said that, who polices sleeping arrangements? In my son's first troop, we had a guy and his live in girlfriend who were both committee members shack up every campout she went on. They usually set up away from everyone else, but still.... To my knowledge, it was never discussed among anyone. This was a small troop that kind of had their own way of doing things and didn't like newcomers rocking the boat. That is why it was my son's "first" troop. We ended up leaving for a multitude of reasons. The point is, someone has to raise their hand and speak up at the unit and/or council level before anything can be done.

Lisa, Just out of curiousity, how does this boy handle 6 hours per day/5 days per week at school?

"Most boys expect to cook meals on stoves set at the "nuclear fire" setting on the dial...and thus, many burned meals and scorched pots...best advise to give them is to "set stoves" on lowest setting and work from there...and constantly remind..low/medium heat!" This reminded me of a scout who is no longer with us. No, not dead, he left scouting. He was one of those that could care less about the joy of cooking and saw it as a chore. No matter how many times we told him, he thought a larger flame was going to get the job done faster. He made lots of pancakes burned on the outside and goo on the inside. His sausage patties were always blackened outside and raw inside. We used a lot of odds and ends donated paots and pans and he actually burned the enamel off of two different pots. He was a bull-headed little cuss who always insisted on doing it his way. His fellow scouts don't miss his cooking!

Part of our job to teach young men how to make ethical decisions over their lifetime is to lead by example and be trustworthy. However well intentioned, I would not recommend bending or breaking the age requirement rules. They exist for a reason. Also, CO's are not expected to provide insurance for a unit. CO and unit liability insurance is provided thru the council. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=insurance Just as the local organization has responsibilities, the local council has responsibilities to the chartered organizations. By recommending that an organization receive a charter from the National Council, the local council agrees to provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization and its board, officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal liability judgments. This insurance includes attorney's fees and court costs as well as any judgment brought against the individual or organization. Unit leaders are covered in excess of any personal coverage they might have, or if there is no personal coverage, the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis.

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to put my two cents in about precooking at home like reaqman suggested. There are times when this might be appropriate, but they should be few and far between. Perhaps at Camporee where the boys are spending a large amount of time in the field and don't have a lot of time for food prep. As boy scouts, they need to learn how to cook in camp, not take things out of the cooler and throw them together. One of the greatest challenges is getting boys to discover the joy of cooking. They really don't want to spend "fun or play" time on food prep and cooking. Yet they love to whine about how unfair it is that the adults eat like kings. Some of the best time at camp for adults is prep, cooking, eating and KP. It is time well spent visiting and bonding. You can be as fancy or as simple as you want when camp cooking. Just about any recipe you can cook at home can be adapted for cooking in camp. You can slow cook in a dutch oven just like you would in a crock pot at home. You can bake a birthday cake in a dutch oven just like you would in the oven at home. Heck, if you don't want to use a dutch oven, line a cardboard box with aluminum foil. I once taught the boys how to use a stainless steel mixing bowl over a grate and coals to bake a pizza. They need to learn how to see cooking as part of the adventure on a campout (with a big pay off when finished) instead of as a chore. My suggestion is to make at least one campout per year dediciated strictly to cooking and spend at least a month of meetings going over skill instruction. Make it a competition. Another option is to have the boys organize outside patrol meetings to concentrate on cooking. Another option is to have an adult in the troop offer the cooking merit badge on days other than the troop meeting. We only allow the cold cereal, sandwiches and hot dogs type menus for a short time after becoming a new scout. All menus go thru one of the moms in the troop for approval the week before a campout to make sure it follows handbook guidelines.

I suppose you could use turkey sausage.