SR540Beaver

funscout, You might take a look at your summer camp's leader's guide if they print one. I've done a good amount of research on camps in all of the surrounding states of Oklahoma. Many, many camp guides use the word "recommended" for "older" merit badges. Some SM's look at it and decide that their boy(s) are good to go even if they fall under the recommendation. Other SM's look at it and decide to follow the guidelines. A recommendation isn't a rule. I've known a few 17 year old scouts that I wouldn't want to be near the rifle range if they were down there and a few 11 year olds that I would be perfectly comfortable with. Your boys might be disappointed, but they have not been short-changed. The rifle range will be there next year and this gives them something to look forward to. We prefer our new boys to participate in the first year program at camp and take a couple of easy craft type MB's to cut their teeth on. Swimming might be the excpetion to that rule. If they do all of the "cool" MB's up front, they won't care about going to camp in the future because they have been there and done that and won't want to take basketry at 13 or 14.

My son took after his mother and is a tad smaller than most of his classmates. He is 13, 5'4" and about 115 lbs. I'm 6'2" and well over 250 lbs. He can out carry and out hike me, but everyone is different. He just returned from Northern Tier and told me that he can carry much more than he ever thought. While the food packs decreased in weight with each meal, they started out at 90 lbs. Of course, they only had to be carried over a prtage rather than all day long like Philmont. They also had what they called elephant packs which contained 3 crew member's personal gear. The packs were almost as big as some of the boys. Even at my son's age, I don't know if I could have done what he did. I have neck, back, shoulder and hip problems from time to time. I can even recall them bothering me to a lesser degree in my teen years. Some of us are just born that way I guess. I'm guessing that the whiner Marine was one of those. I know guys that can backpack endlessly with energy to spare at the end of the day and others who tucker out the first mile. Eamonn is correct about gear. Obviously, the lighter the better and taking only what you need helps. I remember being a gear head when my son first crossed over and we bought everything that came donw the pike. Much of it sits on a shelf at home unused. Even for car camping, I take half of what I used to because I realized it never got used. We urge parents to spend the most they can on the highest quality they can when birthdays and Christmas rolls around. We are always happy to discuss gear with them and point them in the right direction of types of clothing materials and such. I urge all of the boys to get a decent quality headlamp instead of some monster flashlight that looks like it needs training wheels. A headlamp allows you to use both hands setting up a tent at night in the rain. Real handy when it counts. A small blade knife will do everything you need a knife to do unless you plan on hunting grizzly bears. Smaller is better. Lighter is better. Select things that can do double duty. Have a gear shakedown where everyone brings their gear packed so you can go thru it and make deletions and/or suggestions. Taking shorter hikes and/or just going to the local park and walking a track with a loaded pack is good for getting ready to go. One final note. Breathable rain gear is an absolute must and good (broken in) waterproof hiking boots are a must. The Kelty Yukon (I believe) is an adjustable frame backpack that will grow with a boy and has more than enough room to handle a weekend backpacking trip.

"This year our camp used colored flags to let the boys know what the temp. was, and each color of flag signified how much water they should be drinking in a certain amount of time." funscout, This was the same method used at Jambo. The flag was flown at or near the Health Tent in each sub-camp. When the red flag went up, all activities were suspended and you were expected to find a shady spot and drink, drink, drink.

We highly discourage hydration systems like Camelbaks because we can't monitor the boy's intake of water. We prefer nalgene bottles so we can actually SEE that they are drinking. We've had one too many scouts tell us they are drinking water only to find out they are not when they become dehydrated. Like Eamonn, I too got to enjoy the warmth of Virginia in July at Jambo and saw first hand what can happen.....even when you do drink plenty of water. I started praying on a regular basis after Jambo because I want to go to Heaven after experiencing a little hell on Earth....and I'm from Oklahoma! My son does a great job of staying hydrated. One of his buddies who crossed over with him from Webelos would dehydrate on almost every campout. First he would have headaches and want to lay down. He would spend much of the evening in his tent and skip dinner (along with cooking and KP) and then get up and throw up in the middle of camp. You'd think that if you beat your head against a wall long enough, you'd eventually learn not to do it. Not this boy.....sick almost every campout. My son saw that and decided rather quickly that he'd prefer to drink water and enjoy the campout as opposed to being sick and throwing up. The other boy ended up leaving scouts rather than learn to drink water and enjoy himself. Our summer camp SM gave the boys the old drink plenty of water speech and told them about "clear and plentiful" urine. I got a kick out of two of our new boys. I passed them on the road between the waterfront and scoutcraft and they both gave me a thumbs up with a big grin and yelled, "Mr. Beav, clear and plentiful!!!"

Hey, I like the string burning contest!!!

Not suggesting a passing of the buck, but why can't he join a troop overseas to finish his scouting career?

CC, I won't bore you with the details. I've posted them so many times here that I'm sure some people thing I have a one track mind. I'll post the bullet points for you. First troop we crossed to was small and mostly older scouts. They had done little to no recruiting for a few years. Older scouts wanted high adventure and didn't want to babysit. Many parents echoed the sentiment. SM was a great guy, but so laid back he would make a hippy look ultra-conservative. His wife was the treasurer and probably one of the most high strung people I've ever met. We were not made to feel very welcome and basically told to sit down and shut up for the first year while we learned their way of doing things. This was the suggestion to 5 Woodbadge trained adults crossing withe their sons. We were not looking to take over, just a place to serve. The final straw was when the treasurer got mad and threw some notebooks at the CC (one of the new parents) because she had been told she could do the job however she wanted. There was a thin divider wall between the committee and the boys when this happened. We all decided to leave and started a new troop. This was our first 6 months in Boy Scouts. The new troop wtarted with about seven 11 year old boys. It was tough to get them to accept leadership because they had no example to go by and it was very easy for them to fall back into a Webelos state of mind. It was also tough to have much of a program when only half of your 7 showed up for a meeting or outing. We did recruit enough new boys to create a second patrol. But only half of them stuck it out beyond summer camp. We probably could have rocked along and turned it into a going concern after 3 or 4 years. But after a year, I had to consider MY son first and realized that he was not getting everything he could out of scouting from this troop as well. He was PL at 11 and SPL at 12 and spent 12 months of his first 18 months in scouting running a troop. He is now 13 and a Star scout and really has an aversion to running for any leadership position. I visited with the SM and told him my concerns and found that he shared the same feelings. We began to work to find a new troop(s) for the boys to transfer to and shut it down. We ended up going to a large boy led troop of 60+ scouts that has been around for 45 years. It is on the other side of town and it is a 25 mile trip one way......but worth it. The troop has an outstanding program that attracted 20 crossover Webelos this year. The troop does a high adventure trip each year and two crews just returned from Northern Tier. My son was among them. We took 51 boys to summer camp this year. We have scouts from 10.5 years old to 17.5. I say all of that to say this. Better men than me can turn a troop around and/or start a new troop with a hand full of 11 year olds and make it work. My deciding factor was to determine if it was worth it to prove a point or provide my son with the best scouting experience I could. I chose moving to a good established troop over doing years of hard work. I admire those who have the time and tenacity to do the hard thing. However, I wouldn't change our decision to move for anything in the world. OK, so I didn't just hit the bullet points!

Gern, Consider the other courtroom scenario. Mr. Blansten, do you make it a habit to peek into the tents of 13 year olds in their underwear. Doesn't the BSA have a boy led chain of command and youth protection guidelines? I'd rather defend the chain of command in a courtroom than defending why I'm opening tent flaps of almost nude pre-teens on a regular basis. That being said, yes there are times where an adult has to open the flaps, but it should be rare. OneHour, You do have a problem. One that needs to be addressed. The best possible scenario would be for the boy leadership to take it to the SM and when asked by the SM, supported fully by the ASM's who witnessed the problem. That is in a perfect world. This man presents a long term problem. I've mentioned it here before. When my son was a Webelos and we were looking at troops, there was a 40 year old troop that had always held a stellar reputation in the district and council. Our pack wouldn't even consider sending the boys to look at them because of an issue from the previous year at Webelos Woods when they attended with this troop. They had an ASM who thought he was a Marine Drill Instructor. I guess the SM and other adult leadership had either gotten used to him and blew him off or didn't want to confront him for whatever reason. Bottom line, people that went on campouts when he attended got a bad impression and didn't want their son in a troop like that. They also had scouts in the troop who wanted to drop. He eventually left the troop and they are back in full swing. It needs to be addressed. My experience is that there are some folks with very poor people skills and they are simply clueless about it......even when it is pointed out to them. They just can't seem to help themselves. I worked for a guy like that once....but that is another long story.

BadenP, I'm not here to blindly support the pros as 95% of my concerns are at the unit level. But what you said seems contradictory to me. "So I say again, professional scouting is all about money, money, money. In spite of the ever decreasing number of scouting pro's who really do care and really try to make a difference the priorities of National are quite clear." "Yes we can stick to our units and keep helping the youth, which is what we all love to do, but if the infrastucture of the BSA continues to deteriorate and finally collapses what happens to the youth?" Isn't that why the pros are concerned about money, money, money? Like they used to say in the space program, "no bucks, no Buck Rogers".

Eagle, Nope, not upset. Just giving you my history with diabetes. Gern, You know what, I've never really checked into it and am giving my opinion of what BSA would say. You may be correct, they might not have a problem with it. It is true that it would be my personal decision NOT to do it for the reasons I stated. I do know that Philmont has restrictions based on weight and health and NT does provide height/weight charts for maximum weights. I don't have it in front of me, but it seems like the maximum is a suggested weight not to exceed and not a restriction. Again, as an adult, I personally wouldn't want to put the crew in a position of having to haul me out of the wilderness or having to be taken out by float plane and leave them without me to do my job. I see a boy with diabetes a little differently. As long as he is responsible and in good control and knowledgeable, I wouldn't want to hold him back. I will tell you that my 13 year old son felt that breakfast and lunch were a little light at NT and that portaging 90 lbs food packs over some of the trails was very strenueous. They had a couple of days of high winds on the water with white caps and it was all they could do to control the canoe and make headway. For me, that would be eating at my blood sugar. As great as a pump is and the wonders it does for control under normal daily life, you are doing the right thing by going to injections during the trip. That is what I would do. Have a blast. I hope your trip is every bit as eventful and memorable as my son's was. Please drop us a comment and let us know how he did on the trip.

"I really do hope you didn't find my posting to be upsetting or in any way rude. Please know that was never my intention." Heavens to Betsy old buddy, no I didn't find it upsetting or rude. Simply explaining why I can't go. "Knowing what our limitations are does help meet this end." Actually, I meant to use the phrase that a guy has to know his limitations in my response to Eagle, but it faded from my mind while I was typing my response. I talked to the little Beav about 12:45. They had just finished eating at a Wendy's in Ottawa, KS and he wanted me to check MapQuest to find out how far they are from home. 297 miles and 4 hours and 23 minutes away. Depending on gas and potty stops, they will be home between 5 and 6. I'm stretching and warming up those arms for a big bear hug.

I have to admit to only reading the threads that spark an interest for me. If there is a recent thread that has turned ugly that prompted this thread, I am unaware of it. I've been around here for a while and I have seen threads turn less than scoutlike on occasion. I'm pleased that it doesn't happen all that often. There are a few people around who have particular buttons that are easy to push and they let their emotions get the better of them. My thought has always been that they have previously participated in other types of forums on the internet that get and stay downright nasty most of the time. They come here and drag the attitude along with them without realizing this forum is a different animal. I love coming here because scouting is a topic near and dear to my heart and it is a safe harbor in the storm of internet forums. Don't believe me, go to some of the political forums like Democratic Underground or Sean Hannity's webpage. It gets ugly and stays ugly. I've seen it in many other types of forums too. I just think new folks who are involved in scouting come across scouter.com and drop in while dragging along their other forum experiences.

Eagle, Thanks. I don't let it manage me. I was diagnosed as diabetic 32 years ago when I was 17. For the most part, I have had it under good control and experienced very few complications. I've always been able to tell when my blood sugar is getting low and been able to take care of it. I've never passed out, required a call to 911 or been hospitalized. With scouts, it is a personal decision....even though BSA wouldn't allow me to do the high adventure stuff. I never miss a monthly campout, but I do excuse myself from some of the activities. As an adult, part of my responsibility is to help provide two deep leadership. If I take ill, that goes to somewhere in a handbasket really quickly. I don't want to stop a trek every 30 minutes or so to check my blood sugar and work on keeping it at a normal level. Also, at 6'2" and about 275, I don't want to put a bunch of 13 and 14 year old boys in the position of having to haul me out of the back country. I'm afraid they would end up pushing me over a cliff and making up a cover story! LOL I have considered doing it on a personal level and/or with commercial guides away from scouts. Then the risk is all mine. The problem is trying to fit personal trips in with everything we have going on with scouting. I too pray for a cure. I use a Medtronic MiniMed insulin pump. I don't know if your son uses a pump or not. They have come out with a new model that has a blood glucose sensor that will do continueous monitoring so you know what your BG is at any given minute. It has high and low alarms you can set. Now that is the ultimate in tight control. I could certainly see it being a plus for high adventure. What I don't know is how much the sensors cost. They have to be replaced about every three days and the cost could be prohibitive.

E, I would love to share those experiences with my son. Being an insulin dependent diabetic keeps me from it though. BSA wouldn't allow me to go even if I tried and it is just too risky to get that far back in the wilderness and run into complications. As you know, I did Jambo last year. That wasn't a big deal for me or the council folks because I was in a tent city of 40,000 people with first aid huts in every sub-camp. So things like NT and Philmont are only dreams for me. Sea Base has possibilities. I would think being aboard a ship would be hard work, but nothing like hiking or paddling for hours to lower your blood sugar. You have to pack as light as possible for those and having to carry insulin pump supplies, blood glucose testing equipment, batteries and glucose supplies adds weight, not to mention keeping everything dry. That is why I volunteered to run our new scout program when we had 20 boys cross over this year. At this point, all of their outdoor stuff is car camping which I can handle with no problem. It is just the high adventure stuff I can't share in.

Our SM and 3 ASM's took 2 crews from our troop. I got a phone call at 10:30 this morning from my 13 year old Star Scout son. They had just crossed the US/Canadian border headed home from Northern Tier. My first and most important question to him was, "would you go again?" His answer was yes. Everything after that was important, but merely detail. He found that he could carry more weight than he ever thought possible. He saw a moose on the first day. Even at a distance, they are unbelievably large. He didn't see a bear...thankfully, he said. They swam, fished and explored. It rained pretty hard two nights and they had some strong head winds a couple of days. He wished he had remembered to get his sunglasses out of his duffle before hitting the water. They would have been helpful. The bugs and sun were not bad and he never used any repellent or sunscreen. He slept comfortably and never got cold at night. He said everyone did a pretty good job of pulling their weight and everyone got along pretty well with tempers only flairing mildly once in a while. The SM was carrying a canoe on a portage and lost his footing and hurt a knee. He couldn't carry much weight after that. Hopefully, it isn't anything too serious. They caught enough fish to supplement their trail food a few times. He decided the trail food was better than the ham and mac and cheese they had for dinner when they returned to the canoe base yesterday. He did enjoy the shower, sauna and sleeping in the cabin. They really enjoyed their interpreter. They have a 600 mile drive ahead of them today to get to a motel in Ames, Iowa and then another 600 mile drive tomorrow to get home to Oklahoma City. Dad was VERY happy to hear his voice and learn that it was a good experience. I'm eager to pick him up tomorrow and give him a big hug......in front of God and everyone!!! Next phone call, I'll have to remember to ask him if there is anything special he wants waiting when he gets home. I already have a gallon of Red Diamond Sweet Tea waiting in the fridge and a couple of cans of Pringles in the pantry. Oh yeah, he atually remembered to buy his mom a gift at the trading post. Whew!

Was there some sort of big sporting event taking place that we were not aware of? purcelce, My son's crew should be getting off the water right about now at Atikokan and heading home in the morning.

I had kind of managed to push it out of my mind, but this discussion brought it back. There is a largish troop in town that has been around for at least 40 to 45 years. In fact, many of my friends growing up earned their Eagle in this troop back in the day. The troop has their own bus and hut. Back when my son was a Webelos, we obviously were checking out troops for the boys to join. I asked about this troop and found out that after what had happened the previous year, our pack avoided recommending this troop. They had an adult who thought he was a drill sergeant and barked orders at the boys and our pack leadership determined they didn't want to steer boys in their direction. One weekend, we are at a Webelos Woods and one of our leaders points this guy out to me. Low and behold, he is my ex-wife's nephew by marriage. While it isn't scoutlike and I usually don't speak ill of others.....this guy is a blooming idiot who has a number of issues. I totally understood why they steered clear of this troop because of him. His son aged out and he has since left. The troop survived him and is now back on the list of troops to look at. A good number of Cub leaders did make it known back them about their concerns. What if anything the troop did about it, I don't know. One of the bad sides of a problem adult isn't just how it affects the current boys, but also how it affects recruiting. That is one way to approach the problem adult. Ask them how they think prospective boys and their parents would react if they saw this during a visit?

SA, It all depends on how it is used. Those suggestions take me back to freshman orientation at Oklahoma Baptist University where you had to wear a beanie the first week and could be stopped by upper classmen to quote Karip or the alma mater on demand. Karip goes like this: Ka-rip Ka-rap Ka-riplo typlo tap Oh! Oh! Rincto lincto hio-totimus Hopula scipula copula gotimus Chink-to-lack Chink-to-lee Ka-willa, Ka-walla, Ka Victory Oh! Oh! Hoogula choogula choogula can. Ragula tagula melican man Let'er go rip, let'er go ruse Tingula Tangula, turn'em a-loose Zip! Bang! OBU! The faster and louder you say it, the better. Orientation was "regulated" by upper classmen in robes called Bop Cops. I can't remember anyone being upset over any of it. It was fun and games for all involved. As far as I know, the tradition continues 27 years after I graduated.

I've only been to 3 different scout summer camps, but all 3 of them required "Class A" (meaning shirt if nothing else) for dinner and campfire programs. Some required Class A for morning flag. The rest of the time, while a Class B was preferred, they could wear any kind of pant or shirt. Preferrably a scouting related shirt. No inappropriate logo shirts like for beer companies or such. The only restrictive thing I've experienced was National Jamboree last year. Our council required our 3 troops to have 3 Class A uniforms. We had special hats and t-shirts made and they were the only hats and t-shirts allowed. Civilian clothing of any kind outside of pajamas or swimsuits were strictly forbidden. We did look sharp. It was however irritating to see other councils kids walking around in untucked t-shirts for their favorite sport teams. That was very rare, but you saw some of it.

The SR-540 Beavers used four different yells. Our official yell is "chew or die". Our unofficial yells during the course were, "Ward, I'm worried about the Beaver", "good morning Miss Landers" and "gee Wally".

I realize that the "jerk" ASM's wife is the CC and that this could cause problems for the SM, but ASM's fall under the direction of the SM. This is his problem to resolve, not the committee's or the CC's. He needs to set the guy down and tell him he was wrong, he needs to apologize to the boy, never ever ever do it again......and if he does, his services will no longer be required. We are a large troop with 63 active boys. I have not counted recently, but I bet we have between 6 to 9 ASM's. Our SM trusts us and gives us lots of leeway. But he sets the tone and we follow his example and ideals. I'm responsible for the 20 new boys who crossed over. He put me in charge of it because he felt that I would get things taken care of while he concentrates on the total program. Even so, I always keep him informed of what I'm doing. He is after all, the SM. Yep, the SM needs to set this guy straight or cut him lose.

I can't tell you how many times I've watched "The Right Stuff", "Apollo 13" and HBO's "From the Earth to the Moon". All outstanding.

My son left for Northern Tier last Friday morning. We got to talk to him a couple of times on the phone on their drive up north. One of the things he wanted to know was if the shuttle had taken off as scheduled. We told him no, that it had been postponed. July 4th rolls around and I'm flipping thru the HD channels my cable company provides and low and behold, they've added a new channel called HDnet and they are covering the launch live in HD. I set the DVR so he can have a treat watching it lift off when he gets home next week. It was quite impressive. Baden, I too remember watching those black and white lift-off's in school. I was born in May 1957. Sputnik was launched in October 1957. So, like many Americans, I have grown up with space travel and still find it fascinating.

I meant to post this yesterday when I first read the thread and got sidetracked with WORK of all things. It is much like what CA_Scouter said. A couple of years ago, Barry, (Eagledad) and I were have a discussion about a problem scout in the troop I was serving at the time. Barry told me how they had handled a particular problem boy who had a destructive bent if I recall correctly. An adult was assigned to the boy. The boy was not made aware that an adult was assigned. Since this adult stayed within about 10 feet of the boy and moved every time the boy moved, the kid got the idea very quickly. He knew that if he didn't toe the line, he would have a permanent shadow. He changed his behavior. I'm not sure about Harry, but Scott needs a shadow.....even if it is a distant one to keep an eye on the "situation" more than him. I am the ASM responsible for the 20 new scouts who crossed over to our troop. They make up 2 NSP's. I have 2 special needs boys. I try to let the troop guides do their job and give the patrols as much independent time as possible. I do keep an eye out to make sure these boys are not being teased or causing problems of their own.

According to MapQuest, it is about 96 miles from Kirkcaldy to Aberdeen.