SR540Beaver

At the risk of sounding negative or biased.......was this Varsity Team LDS? In my area, the few Teams we have are LDS. I've also noted over the years where many of the stories we hear of scouts getting lost, hurt or killed are LDS troops. I've always attributed that to high turnover in adult leadership, leadership being assigned instead of volunteer and lack of training. Just curious.

It's intersting that this thread came up this week. Personally (I have a 17.5 year old son putting his project together), I don't have an issue with adult(s) in the troop looking over their shoulder. We are a 45 year old troop that typically runs a roster of 50 to 60 boys and have had around 160 Eagles in our 45 years. Our SM has held the position for around 10 years. He has seen a lot of Eagle project books and counseled a lot of boys. It is well known in the troop that when you start working on your project, he'd like to look at it. The reason, the boys who go it alone end up having problems with their BOR's. He doesn't do any of the work for them or tell them what to do. He simply reviews it, tells them where they will most likely run into an issue and leaves it to them to correct. In addition to him, we have a Life to Eagle advisor in the troop who helps the boys understand the journey ahead of them. Now, doing what our SM does as opposed to what some parents expect are two different things entirely. We had two boys go to their "final" EBOR this week. Both got turned down at the door. The reason, they had not obtained the required signature from the council certifying or verifying their Eagle required MB's on the Eagle application. The parents were angry with our SM and CC because they signed the Eagle application and didn't TELL the boys to obtain this signature. A little more background here, the boys waited until the night before the EBOR to contact the SM and CC to get signatures on demand. That is something usually not tolerated in our troop. Part of the SM conference and BOR process in our troop is the boy scheduling a time for those events. There is far too many people and far too much going on at any given troop meeting to expect that everything will be dropped to meet your perceived immediate need. Life isn't like that and that is a lesson we try to teach. But I digress. Even if the SM and CC had told them they needed it, it was 8 PM in the evening and the liklihood of obtaining the signature the day of the EBOR (school day) was slim. Where am I going with all of this? It's one thing to guide a boy to write up the best project book possible. It's another to expect the SM to hand hold a 17 year old on obtaining signatures. If you have a document with X number of blanks spaces for signatures and one is blank......should not the boy and/or a parent notice it is blank? Shouldn't they assume that the blank required signature needs to be filled in order to turn in the document and complete the process? I say yes. The boy's families fault the SM and CC.

Depends on your BOR panels and they are vastly different even within the same council. We are having a rash of boys in our district routinely having to come back a second and third time for nitpicky stuff, so we have folks in our troop reviewing the boys project book before hand to try to get them thru the pitfalls. No, it shouldn't be this way. Yes, it is being addressed. It is an adult training issue.......specifically with one "old school" scouter who takes pride in making EBOR's difficult.

basementdweller, The things you mention are local traditions, not part of the course syllabus. As long as the syllabus is being delivered as written, a council can include many different local traditions. So, that being said, how did you like the course......minus the extra trappings?

Buying a self inflating pad for a scout is a scout by scout kind of thing. Some boys will not care for them properly and a deflated pad does little good. Some boys take care of their gear. We are a troop that does a hugh adventure trip every year and we always recommend the Thermarest Z-Rest. It is light weight and does not inflate. You just unfold it and lay down. Our guys love them. Now us older guys with bad backs, necks, shoulders, hips, etc., we NEED our self inflating pads, the thicker the better.....and preferrably a cot.

Ditto to jblake47. I don't care how much insulation you wrap yourself in, you will sleep much colder hanging in mid-air in the winter than if you are on the ground.

This really shouldn't be a problem as there should never be more than two adults on a campout and they need to be at least a half mile away or the program is ruined. Further would be better, but at least a half mile away.

People who don't wear scout socks with their uniform.

ASM915: "The other problem I see is that some of the Chapters, ours included have a hard time getting older more mature members to run for officers, leaving me to work with 13-14 y/o's as CC & VC's, and who have a hard time focusing and committing to doing their jobs, even with the best cooxing." I guess it is a matter of perspective. I have mostly 16 to 18 year olds and between jobs, sports, sr year and college, they have a hard time focusing and committing to doing their jobs....even with the best of coaxing. I'm almost at the point of wishing for 13 to 14 year olds who's have less competition from the outside and get delivered by their parents. Don't get me wrong, my desire is to have these 16 to 18 year old guys leading the way, it just seems darn near imossible at times. For the Spring Ordeal, we started out having two ceremony teams and I would drive 50 miles round trip every week to hold ceremony practices. Some might remember, some might not. Then one by one, other "commitments" popped up. After 6 weeks of practices, I ended up with 2 guys on the ceremony team attending Ordeal and had the displeasure of telling the Lodge that we could not supply teams. Fall Ordeal is less than a month away and while things are kind of holding together, I'm starting to lose the guys one by one again. I had the wisdom to not make any committments to the Lodge yet for teams. It is actually my younger guys that I can depend on more than my older guys.

I agreed that there are no co-SM's. That isn't exactly rocket science. There is no such animal. But this troop has what they call co-SM's. Both men wear SM position patches while at least 10 other people wear ASM patches. So yes, they run it the way they want instead of "by the book".

Heard back from our Lodge Advisor who had never heard of such an award either. He consulted some of the really old, white headed, scooter riding Arrowmen who used to wear felt sashes and they say there has never been such a critter.

emb021, I'm well aware that there are no co-SM's......but there are in this troop. I'd love to see their paperwork at recharter. Like some of our friends around our virtual campfire here, they like to do what makes sense to them and works for them. They are something of an off-beat group that doesn't really keep to the pirate code and see them more as guidelines. From what I can tell from afar, they are heavily "adult directed" if you catch my drift. They don't really pariticpate in the district or council unless they want something. Something like asking the district training chair for x number of signed YP cards as they will do their own YP instruction, thank you very much. To which the training chair said, "uhhh, NO!" But that is a whole other can of worms.

NJCubScouter: "And why are leaders doing things that they have to hide from the boys?" Perhaps because the GTSS says to?

Eagle92, Quite possibly, although he seems to distinctly remember it being from OA and mentioned that either the patch or the knot was red and white. The only red and white knots are the Heroism Award and the OA Distinguished Service Award. But it is for service beyond the Lodge level.

I'm a Chapter Adviser. A couple of nights ago, I got a call from an old time scouter. Says he used to be on the executive committee of the council as well as the Lodge Adviser. He has become active again to assist a troop that has "co-SM's" who were Eagle Scouts from the troop he was SM for years ago. He says they have pulled this dying troop back from the brink and he wants to do something to honor them. He seems to remember an OA award that was used to recognize SM's. He believes there was a patch, knot and certificate. I've Googled and Googled and can't come up with anything currently or historically that fills the bill. I've asked our current Lodge Adviser and it has him stumped too. He's going to ask some guys who used to wear felt sashes. Until then, I thought I'd run it by you guys. Ever hear of such an award from the OA?

Barry, I can never keep track. Was that the good WB, the bad WB or the one in between?

My how times have changed. I remember the smoking area out behind my church where the smokers lit up between Sunday School and the worship service. Some of the finest men a boy could ever be around. That being said, I gave up smokeless tobacco cold turkey at the 2005 Jambo.

So in other words Stosh, you operate like most other units.

Call it paranoia if you want, but there is a reason why mothers in the animal kingdom keep and eye on their young. Instinct and experience. It is a normal part of life that ensures your young survive and thrive into adulthood and your species continues. I had a much beloved and highly trusted adult (clergy) I'd known throughout my teen years wait until I was just "of age" to try to touch me inappropriately at a camp. I was old enough and confident enough to say no. Had he tried that 3 or 4 or more years earlier, I don't know how I would have handled it. Even at 18, it freaked me out so much that I never told anyone. Checking out the situation and protecting your child is just good parenting. I trust my 17 year old son and I've given him way more leeway over the years than my wife wanted me to. Part of that was because I did grow up in the generation that took off on their bike in the morning and came home at dinner. But I'd rather head something off at the pass than do the damage control on the backside, especially with molestation. Any parent is welcome to come on any campout at anytime. That is our troop policy. BUT, they are made to understand that the adults have their own campsite and cooking and KP duties and they are not to interfere with the patrols. Most campouts over the last 6 years of Boy Scouts, my son and I hardly speak to one another. Heck, he was SPL of his Jambo troop while I was ASM for another Jambo troop. We saw each other in passing.

OJ comes in handy bottles at the store......coffee doesn't.

Eagle92, Are you speaking of Java Juice? I've seen it at REI, but I've never tried it. http://www.javajuiceextract.com/

You need as many adults as it takes to transport the boys and equipment. If you have 40 boys going on a campout 150 miles away, 3 or 4 adults ain't gonna cut it. Once there, you let the boys do their program while the adults hang out in their area.

I've got a number of helicopter stories I can relate to you, but I'll only give you this one. Webelos Woods this past spring at the council property close to town. Two scouts came with the troop on Friday night to participate in the event on Saturday. They had to leave Saturday evening for another event. Another scout had to work on Friday and part of Saturday and couldn't come to camp until Saturday evening. He was going to use the tent the other two were moving out of. One of the two who was moving out was a 17 year old Eagle and his buddy was a 16 year old Life scout. The Eagle's mom went into their tent and gathered their gear and loaded it in her car. The scout who was moving into their tent had already dropped his gear in it. She gathered his gear along with the other two boy's gear and drove away with it. Temps were in 40's that night and when the scout went to unroll his bag and get in bed......it wasn't there. That is a helicopter parent at work. OK, a bonus story. Same mom and scout. He went to the 2005 Jambo as a participant and she went on staff. I was ASM of his Jambo troop. Twice, TWICE she came down to the camp site and cleaned his tent for him. Sheesh!

Our troop has a number of adults trained in climbing and rappelling and we own our own gear. Shooting is a whole different animal when treying to provide your own program outside of summer camp. An option that might be considered is a local gun club. We have some registered adults in our troop who are members of the club. A year or so ago we had a shotgun campout. On Friday night, the club handled the safety instruction. On Saturday, they handled the range safety. The provided the shotguns and ammo. Shotguns brought in from the outside were subject to a check by the club before being allowed. They allowed the troop to camp there as it is a large piece of land on the outskirts of town. I believe the troop did a service project while there. The boys voted to do the outing again during the coming year. Something to think about.

I don't know that I would use the term locked down, but COH's are put on the calendar so folks can plan for them. If someone decides they want a COH next Sunday afternoon and it happens to be the day boys are leaving for summer camp, you might have very low attendance. An extreme example? Yes, but you get the picture. When you have 60 boys and 2 parents per with additional family members, things run much smoother if events are scheduled ahead of time. The main issue with ECOH being locked down with other COH's is that grandparents from out of state can't be there on a weeknight.