SR540Beaver

I live in one district where we Cubbed. But we Scout in a neighboring district. I am the OA Chapter Advisor/District Committee Member in the neighboring district where we Scout.

What if it is a non-camping venturing crew? How do you change the eligibility requirements to also allow them?

No. OA is part of the Boy Scouts which is one of the programs offered by the BSA. Venturing is a separate program offered by the BSA. Just because they are both programs of the BSA, does not mean they should share elements of their programs with one another. OA is the Honor Society of Boy Scouts. If Venturing desires to have an honor society, they need to create one unique and individual to them. I have nothing against Venturing. I am not involved in Venturing. I've watched Venturing struggle and the tendency is for Crews and Councils to glom onto Boy Scouts and Troops to keep it alive. They need to find their own way rather than exist on life support. I'm not trying to be mean or closed minded. I just don't see the justification foir further blurring the line between Boy Scouts and Venturing by making OA a shared honor society. That being said, NYLT is currently being revamped to be "program neutral". It will now be shared between scouting and venturing, male and female. I assume that youth can attend up to 21 if in Venturing and only 18 if in Boy Scouts. This is further confused in that Wood Badge has been opened up to 18 year olds. So you could go to NYLT one week and then off to Wood Badge a week later.

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2009/10/stay-connected-at-the-jamboree.html http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2010/06/att-creates-jamboree-communications-network.html

Guys! It's movie magic! Just watch it and quit asking questions!

In 2005, I acted as the "bank" for our Jambo troop. Some boys had travlers checks which the hotel and Jambo trading Posts would cash. The majority brought money. I had a locking bank bag that was in my posession except when I showered. We recommended $200 per scout. I was carrying close to $7200 at all times. My rules were these. Between breakfast clean up and being relased for the day, the bank was open. It was the only time of the day it was open unless you happened to run across me somewhere out and about. You could withdraw in $5 increments. You could not deposit back. Once you took it out, it was yours. Unless a parent put a daily withdraw limit on their son, he could choose to take all of his money out of the bank. Once in his posession, it was his responsibility. If he lost it, it was gone. Personally, I couldn't tell you the last time I wrote a check. I use my debit card for everything. I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fast forward to 2010 and I am once again acting as the bank for Jambo. My same rules apply. As much as I personally like debit cards, I really, really would discourage anyone but the oldest and most responsible scout from carrying one. They are too easy to lose in that venue and once it is gone.....it is gone. In 2005, we collected all photo ID's once we were inside the Jambo and secured them in the locking bank bag until we left the Jambo grounds and headed to the airport. I'd send cash if you have a banker or I would send a little cash and use the smart bracelet. It literally has to be cut off your arm. It can't be lost and it is waterproof.....and I don't have to carry $7,000 in cash.

I'm not sure about WiFi, but AT&T users should be in good shape for a connection. One of our regional bigwigs was onsite last week and said they had completed construction on a couple of new towers.

I agree, give us some examples. The Scouters I know still teach boys to be self reliant in the outdoors. Now, some of the trappings and delivery methods change with time, but that is normal. I know of one troop that to this day uses BSA wall tents on every campout. Everyone else I know uses modern dome tents. To teach true self reliance, neither would use tents and would teach boys how to build a shelter with whatever they can find on hand. So what changes? Clothing materials, equipment, media style, etc. So what? If I go back and look at my Cub Scout handbooks from the mid 60's, the Cub Scout Promise reads "I promise to do my best to do my duty to God and my country, TO BE SQUARE and to obey the law of the pack". To be square? What kid would understand that in 2010? I did back in 1965. The handbooks were full of references to your "fellows". No kid today would understand what that means. WE also wore the Cub Scout hats with the yellow piping and short bill. What kid would be caught dead in one of those? Scouting like many other things and organizations need to modernize to be relevant to their current audience. I grew up in a day and time where you put a suit on for Sunday morning worship at church and you were reverant and sang hymns. Today, people weat t-shirts, shorts and flip-flops to church, while sipping a Starbucks coffee and listening to a rock band belt out tunes. People flock to tho new style churches while the old style churches are declining. I don't like it.......because it isn't the way we used to do it, but that is the reality of the situation.

@OldGreyEagle - "Seems I had a reputation for vibrating the ground." You can leave it at home on fishing campouts. You'd be great for spooking the nightcrawlers to the surface for the bait fishermen.

Risk Zone? I've had just about every BSA training there is....some multiple times. I've never heard of Risk Zone training every two years.

bacchus - "I understand it gets a bit more difficult to move WB back a day and start with Thursday so people have to take 2 days off from work instead of just 1, but you would probably be surprised at how many would jump at that opportunity." Perhaps, but based on my experience I don't think so. I just finished staffing my third course this past weekend. Our council does two courses a year. The spring course always seems harder to fill than the fall course. I think part of that has to do with the spring course trying to recruit during the Christmas holiday when people are spending their money on things other than training. It is hard enough to convince a person to take a day of vacation on Friday for B, let alone trying to talk them into taking a Thursday and a Friday. I think trying to do a Thursday thru Saturday course in our neck of the woods would prove disasterous for making a course. BTW, we've had a number of LDS participnats and staff members in our course and being there on Sunday has never been an issue. They talk to whoever it is in the LDS church here and explain they are going to WB and are told to go and not be concerned about it.

We unfortunately don't have many Eagle traditions or they are lost. Our Troop is 45 years old and has close to 160 Eagles over that time. When I first came to the troop in 2005, we had individual Eagle ceremonies planned by the boy and his family, often at the venue of their choice. Since we typically run around 60 boys on our roster and we currently have about 20 boys sitting on Life, it was determined that the ECOH would be done as part of the regular COH's and there would be multiple Eagles presented at them. Any personalization of the event is done at a table provided for the boy at the reception following the COH. I don't like it as I think a boy who has attained Eagle deserves to have his horn tooted a little more than that. But then, I'm not the SM who would have to attend all of those multiple ECOH's on top of all his other responsibilities throughout the year. I understood the reasoning behind the policy, but I didn't care for it at the time it was made. Now that my son is a project away from earning Eagle, I like it even less.

I'm not a morning person, never have been, never will be........I've never missed a breakfast on a campout, and we usually get up before the sun.

I was visiting with the CM of the pack my son crossed over from back in 2004 and asked if they still did the annual rocket launch activity the pack had done for years. He said they did, but that they switched over to the pop bottle rockets last year and they were just as big of a hit as the estes rockets. You can find them here. http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail.aspx?KeyWords=r2k&searchtype=0&sport=3&by=20&c=0&t=0&l=0&ID=1911 or http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail.aspx?KeyWords=r2k&by=20&ID=5912&c=0&t=0&l=0 The first link is for individual rockets at $3.25 each. The second link is for a package of 30 for $69.00 which reduces the price to $2.30 each. Of course, it would require a one time expense of the launch pad materials that can be used for years to come. It runs $139.00. http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail.aspx?KeyWords=rocket launcher&by=20&ID=1179&c=0&t=0&l=0(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Scoutmomma, I assist with our new boy program and we crossover anywhere from 15 to 20 new scouts per year. Our pledge to these boys and their families is that we will provide a program that will allow them to get pretty darn close to first class in the first year they are with the troop. The catch is that they have to participate. We realize that some boys are involved in sports or other outside activities and we are up front that those boys will probably advance more slowly than their peers......but that is their choice. It isn't held against them at all. But some requirement items are not as easy to continually repeat to get everyone equal with one another. And getting them all equal isn't part of the program anyway. We might do multiple 5 mile hikes, we might not. If they miss the campout where we do, it is on them to attend the next campout with a 5 mile hike to advance. The tenderfoot to first class requirements are pretty plain about camping. If they come do the program during the day on Saturday, they can be signed off on those requirements. If they don't spend the night, they don't get signed off on those requirements and will be sitting at Scout until they do.

Our Lodge does elections in the November/December time frame with call outs around the following March and our first Ordeal in May with a second Ordeal in September. Most new scouts crossover in the February/March time frame. We seldom have this issue.

jhankins, Finally got my hands on the admin guide and you are right. BSA has to accomodate a variety of situations. In our council, we do a spring and fall course each year. That gives us plenty of material to work with for developing new staff and the 30% isn't a guideline, but a council requirement here. The council to the south of us is much smaller and more rural and has not had a WB course in years. Their scouters rarely travel up to our council to attend WB. As a result, they have so few WB21C trained leaders that they can NOT pull together a staff to hold a council course if they wanted to. We have one scouter in our coucil who once traveled out of state to be CD for a course so their council could get enough people trained to begin running courses again. Our council has two metropolitan areas in it and that is where the majority of our participants come from. The scouters in the rural towns in the outlying districts tend to not come to WB as much. So when we are trying to build a diverse staff, the district diversity often gives us fits. Because we have two courses a year and a lot of potential staffers to pull from, we don't put 4 beaders back into staff rotation. They do serve as support staff and do the cooking and dishwashing. This frees our QM staff to do the heavy lifting their jobs require as well as do presentations and still get some sleep. Occasionally we will have a 4 beader support staff person serve as a back up presenter if a staffer gets sick. We are very fortunate to have a healthy and active WB culture in our council. Others are not as fortunate and therefore the admin guide allows for some needed flexibility.

OGE, There may still be some pockets of elitism regarding WB, but the folks doing that are not being trustworthy. A Course Director is required to attend a Course Directors Development Conference prior to their course. At this conference, the CD signs a contract and takes a pledge to deliver the syllabus as written. I don't have my Admin guide here at work, but many requirements are in place on how to staff a course that go a long way from preventing the cliques of old. Each course has to have a minimum of 30% new staff. Once a person has staffed as a CD, they can no longer staff. A great deal of effort goes into being as diverse as possible when assembling a staff. Age, gender, religion, program, race, district are just a few of the items on the list. If you are a black, muslim, woman who is a Venturing Advisor from a small outlying district, you are a shoo-in for WB staff! I am currently serving as the back-up CD on a course and it is kind of sad to see our CD who has staffed 5 courses previously NOT be able to assemble the staff he wants, but the staff he is required to pull together. I say sad on a personal level because of the relationships built while staffing a course. I understand the method to the madness. The idea is to open WB staffing to everyone who meets the requirments for staffing and for the CD to develop a staff rather than make it a reward for his buddies and our CD fully understands and embraces the concept. We do two courses a year, so that is 96 people who can attend WB per year in our council. It is rare that we have a completely full course, so I am hard pressed to say that WB in MY council is elitist. Anybody who can afford to go can and we have scholarships if they can't.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

jhankins, http://www.oa-bsa.org/programs/ttr/troop.php The Order of the Arrow Troop Representative is a youth liaison serving between the local OA lodge or chapter and his troop. In his unit, he helps meet the needs of the unit and will serve as a communication and programmatic link to and from Arrowmen, adult leaders and Scouts who are not presently members of the Order. He will do this in a fashion that strengthens the mission of the lodge, purpose of the Order and the mission of the Boy Scouts of America. By setting a good example, he will enhance the image of the Order as a service arm to his unit. OA Troop Representative Duties: Serves as a communication link between the lodge or chapter and the troop. Encourages year round and resident camping in the troop. Encourages older Scout participation in high adventure programs. Encourages Scouts to actively participate in community service projects. Assists with leadership skills training in the troop. Encourages Arrowmen to assume leadership positions in the troop. Encourages Arrowmen in the troop to be active participants in the lodge and/or chapter activities and to seal their membership in the Order by becoming Brotherhood members. Sets a good example. Enthusiastically wears the Scout uniform correctly. Lives by the Scout Oath, Scout Law and OA Obligation. Shows Scout spirit. Qualifications: Under 18 years old Appointed by SPL with SM approval OA Member in good standing Reports To: Assistant Senior Patrol Leader Flow of Information The following is a list of information that needs to flow between the OA Troop Representative and the Lodge or Chapter: Lodge/Chapter to Unit: Lodge/Chapter Calendars Unit Elections visit Camp Promotions visit Community service project opportunities Invitations to Ordeal members to obtain Brotherhood membership Invitations to candidates to attend their Ordeal Resource lists OA Representative Registration Forms Encourages OA members to be active in their Lodge and Chapter Unit to Lodge/Chapter: Does the unit conduct monthly campouts? Does the unit attend a long-term camp? Do the units older scouts participate in high adventure programs? Does the unit need assistance with its outdoor program? Does the unit need assistance with community service projects? Does the unit need assistance with training? Do the units OA members participate in Lodge and Chapter functions? Name of the new OA Troop Representative Reaction of the Troop members to the Lodge and Chapter program

Gary, Let me try this again. I believe in boy led. I support boy led. I'm an evangelist for boy led. Boy led begins and continues with adult guidance, advice and mentoring. Simply telling a group of boys that it is all theirs and walking away doesn't work. Never has. In fact, that (extreme) way of doing boy led is why our chapter and lodge is where it currently is......near death. Let me describe where the chapter was until I became adviser at the beginning of the year. The "chapter" consisted of 5 boys from the same troop (the troop I serve). They held the leadership positions in the chapter and they were the ceremony team. They were a clique and had no interests in expanding their little circle. They were the only Vigil candidates from our chapter. There were no chapter meetings. The only meetings were ceremony practices at the old advisers house and mostly consisted of hanging out and drinking root beer. I know, because I was there for every single one of them for the last two years. The real practice came about 15 minutes before a ceremony was done while they were putting on regalia. Other than contacting the 8 to 9 troops out of 25 who "allowed" elections, there was no other communication to troops or Arrowmen. That was our "boy led" chapter.......and we were one of the more active chapters in the lodge. Our lodge and our chapter are in a rebuilding and revitalizing phase right now. To get back to true enthusiastic boy led, we are seeking out the few truly motivated young men who do have a vision of what the lodge can be to run for leadership positions and we are supporting the heck out of them. But often, you have to play the hand you were dealt. The only youth I had willing to run for Chapter Chief is a scatter brained ADD kid. His dad is one of my best friends and I love the young man to death, but I have to work with him in baby steps every single step of the way. Last week was our second ever chapter meeting. I was going to be gone staffing Wood Badge. I reminded him that as chapter chief, it is his responsibility to put together the agenda and chair the meeting. To help, I gave him a number of suggestions and ideas on what to report and what to do. No problem, he' take care of it. Then his dad contacted me and told me that his son actually had a swim team function at the same time, didn't realize it (common problem among the chapter leadership) and could not be there. So, I had another discussion with the chief that if he couldn't be there, it was his responsibility to contact someone else in the leadership team and get them to stand in for him. No problem, he'd take care of it. Never happened. People showed up for the chapter meeting and sat and stared at each other. I could tell you story after story just like this since the first of this year. How many instances like that happens before people decide it is a bunch of hooey and go back to not wanting elections in their troops because OA is a waste of time and meaningless? I could just say, oh well.....that's boy led and you get what you get. I'm not content to do that. At this point, even the guys in chapter leadership have little idea of what it CAN be because they don't know any different. As an adviser, I view my job as seeking out interested youth to bring in and get the chapter moving again. Hopefully, thru them we can change the current culture and get back to letting them do all the work. Trust me, absolutely nothing would make me happier than being able to stand back, see them fired up, watch them work and toss out an occasional piece of advise......but we ain't there yet. Obviously, your chapter had reached this level. But just like troops and patrols, the level of boy led expertise constantly rises and falls in chapters and lodges as new boys come in and old boys go out. Often, the one constant in the equation is the adult mentor and adviser. We are there for a reason and it isn't window dressing.

Gary, Welcome to the forum! I wouldn't disagree with you one bit. I wish it were that simple. If you go up and read my other post, you see the other side of the story. As an Adviser, part of my job is to give these honor scouts additional opportunities to use the leadership skills they have learned thru scouting. Part of my job is to ensure that while doing that, the boys don't damage the reputation of the Lodge thru youthful negligence. Reputation and respect is a hard to re-earn. All it takes is for the team or even just one member of the team to forget to show up to do a crossover ceremony and word spreads pretty quick. As evidenced by the original post, there is also an anger and getting in someone's face piece of the puzzle to deal with. If you had told your Webelos Den or your Pack for the last 4 to 6 weeks that an OA team was coming to do a ceremony and then had everyone sitting in chairs staring at a wall, what would you do? Would you get up and say, oh well, it is boy run and sometimes this happens with teenagers or would you be on the phone to the Adviser asking how he could have let this happen? As a new Adviser, I do indeed expect my guys to step up to the plate. Especiaaly since the vast majority of them are old enough to drive, are life or Eagle and have been SPL's in their troops. So far, we ain't there yet and I have to work with what I can get out of them. That is the simple reality of the situation. As a member of the Lodge and the District Committee, I simply can't just throw it out there as part of a grand experiment and hope for the best.

jhankins, I'm sorry to hear that. From THIS Chapter Adviser's perspective, I encourage our Arrowmen to seek out service. Not just the OA Work Days at our camps, but to serve in their units, to staff our summer camps and day camps and to staff NYLT if the opportunity arises. Likewise, I encourage the folks running those different venues to seek out Arrowmen.

SctDad, Like others, I feel and appreciate your pain. Like others, I'm a newly minted Chapter Adviser. I spent the past year shadowing the old adviser. I had a great deal of respct for her, but she was a last minute, fly by the seat of her pants, pull things together person and that attitude was picked up by the boys. They are quite proud of pulling it off at the last minute and it has given them a false confidence that they can do anything. I have been combatting that since the beginning of the year. You and your boy were let down. There my be no excusing it and apologies might fall on deaf ears. There are always two sides to a story though. One of the things I'm trying to do is get Chapter meetings going again. Our Chapter has not had them for a number of years now. The "Chpater" mostly consisted of 4 to 5 ceremony team members who met at the Chapter Advisers house to practice when ceremonies were coming up. All but one boy came from the troop I serve. I'm trying to get other troops to buy back in, get boys to become ceremonialists and get members to attend meetings. Let me tell you that it is an uphill battle and a hard row to hoe. I know all of these boys. One is my son. These are guys in the 15 to 17 year old range from a boy led troop. Life to Eagle. Camp staffers. NYLT staffers. High adventure kids. Two were awarded District Boy Scout of the year. What I'm finding is that I NEED to schedule all ceremonies or it won't get done. I HAVE t osend email reminders and test messages each week or they won't remember where they are supposed to be for practices, meetings and ceremonies. I even copy all of their parents because they have a tendancy to not check emails or mark it on a calendar like an adult will. My fear is that what happened to you will happen to one of our packs and as Chapter Adviser, I won't let the boys, the Chapter or the Lodge be seen in that light. I should be able to turn the whole she-bang over to these guys and sit back and Advise. Should. Reality.....they are teenage boys coming up on the end of their youth scouting experience. These guys are getting driving liscenses, cars, girlfriends, taking SAT's and ACT's, staffing camps, working jobs and simply being teenagers. To them, they think they have a busy life and not enough time to fit everything in and certainly do a poor job of scheduling their time. I recently put one of my ceremonialists on hiatus. We had our call out coming up. We have been busy doing crossover ceremonies (9 so far) and had let practice time slip by for call out. One of my best guys came to practice. He needed to take a bio break and spent 20 minutes of practice time in the bathroom. I was irritated, but nature had called. The next week, same thing. I told him he either needed to go before he got there or after he left.....but not while everyone else on the team is sitting and waiting on him. At the same time, I had other members who couldn't make it because of work or some other something. Because we had done very little to no practice for call out, they all agreed to have a special practice. Agreed! We show up for the special practice on Tuesday night before the Friday call out......and he forgets to come and can't be reached by the whole team trying to contact him. I don't get angry very easy. The boys knew that I was hot. All the troops in the district knew when the ceremony was and many were going to be there and our team had yet to actually practice the ceremony all the way thru without scripts. I gave them two choices. One, we would do it the way it had been done for a number of years up until a year ago and they would stand at the campfire and read names on a list (boring). Or two, they could get on the phone and find someone to take our missing poopers place. They got hold of a boy who agreed to "do his best". He got the script on Tuesday night and saved the day on Friday. The other boy is still on the team.....but it served as a wakeup call for the other guys that they need to pay attention and follow thru. My word to our team was this. We will never, ever fly by the seat of our pants in our Chapter again. They are all old enough and experienced enough and have the leadership skills to do this job right. If they won't do it, I'll recruit new guys who will. Now, I still have to keep in mind that I am dealing with boys who have many other interests and obligations. If a kids boss schedules him to work, there is little I can do about it. Please keep in mind that your Chapter Adviser might be dealing with issues that you know nothing about and he may be just as disappointed as you are. Sometimes we need to walk a mile i nthe other guy's shoes for a little perspective. Sorry for being so long winded and rambling on.

I hate to break it to Logan, Utah's Troop 1, but they are not the oldest Boy Scout Troop west of the Mississippi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_Scout_Groups#United_States_of_America_2 The first Boy Scout troop in America was organized in Pawhuska, Osage County, Oklahoma, in May 1909 by Reverend John F. Mitchell. Rev. Mitchell was a missionary priest from England sent to St. Thomas Episcopal Church by the Church of England. Rev. Mitchell, who had been associated in scout work with Lord Baden-Powell in England, organized the troop of Boy Scouts under English charter and equipped them with English uniforms, manuals, and badges. The charter members of the troop were: Douglas Foote, Jack Hutchings, John I. Johnson, Robert MuGuire, Lee Copeland, Cliff Ferguson, Thomas Leahy, Walter B. Johnson, Tom Leahy, Joe McGuire, Clyde Wilson, Dick Millard, "Spider" Hinkle, Clemmer Curtis, Roland Blanc, Alex Tinker, Jack Coffey, Rogers Leahy, and Roland McGuire.

Hmmmm, when it comes to Scouting, you Brits obviously don't know what you are doing!