SR540Beaver

Oh, I'm not saying it can't be done or that there aren't some mature enough to do it. Heck, we had issues with some of our guys who were 16. Other than weight requirements, if they pay the money, they get to go. I'd say 99% of the kids in our three contingent troops were great kids in both 2005 and 2010. Then there is that 1% that can drive you crazy. There is always the absent minded kid who won't pay attention in DC and wanders off with another troop from halfway across the country. First, why aren't you with your buddy and second, how can you be walking with 40 other people that you've never seen before. My son went in 2005 as a 12 year old. We've had a fairly good number of 12 year olds in all three of our troops for the past two Jambos. They require a little more hand holding than the older scouts. Not a lot, but more and the older boys generally do a pretty good job of keeping up with them. I've worked with our home units new scout patrol for the last four years or so and we typically get anywhere from 15 to 20 new scouts per year. All I'm saying is that from my experience as an ASM at two Jambos and as an ASM for about 60 new scouts over the past few years, I think the 11 year old age limit is pushing it a little except for exceptional 11 year olds. Lord knows, when we talked about not allowing cell phones at the 2010 Jambo, we had parents of 15, 16 and 17 year old scouts freaking out over not being able to stay in contact with their son and they were the calm ones.

Summit Bechtel Reserve has launched a new website at https://summit.scouting.org/en/Pages/default.aspx. They have a link to 2013 Jamboree information. There are two changes I noted. One I had already heard of is that Venturers will be allowed at this Jamboree. I have not heard how that will work yet. I don't know if they will have contingent crews. I don't see mixing them in with the contingent troops and making them coed. I don't see a lot of councils being able to muster a contingent crew. Two is this, "Must be at least 12 years of age by the first day of the jamboree or an 11 year old that has graduated the 6th grade, but has not reached their 18th birthday by the last day of the jamboree." Having been a Jambo ASM for 2005 and 2010, I have my qualms about bringing 11 year olds. Using a simple age cutoff instead of an age and a school grade requirement is much more simple. You are either 12 or your aren't. There are going to be boys and parents of 11 year olds who have not graduated 6th grade who will be begging for exemptions. From my experience, 12 is almost too young. 11 definitely is.

I know of one CO that while providing space to their units, puts them on a tight schedule. They provide them a scout room, but if they are one minute over the scheduled time, they are charged for the room. Crazy!

One of the things I've noticed locally is a large difference between district expectations. In our district, they like to see you build something that will last. Re-tarracing and graveling an eroded trail isn't enough. They want you to build a bench or two along the trail. My son's project was reconstructing the roof on a pavillion at a NFP camp. The old roof was made of particle board and shingles and was rotting beyond repair. His project removed the old roof down to the six support posts and totally building a new frame and roof using corrugated steel. Then he painted the supports and the frame. I don't remember the total hours, but it cost around $600. Now, that is a project! Our neighboring district approved a flag retirement demonstration. The scout held a demonstration where he explained the process to a church group and then actually held a retirement ceremony. Not very lasting, not very hard and I'm not sure how it showed leadership. Then just the other day, I heard where a scout in the same district collected blankets and gave them to a homeless shelter. A worthy cause to be sure, but I'd have to see the write up to determine how much effort went into the project and how it showed leadership. Another inconsistency is doing projects for your charter. It is forbidden in our district, yet other districts do it routinely....as long as it doesn't benefit the unit. You can repaint the church building, but you can't recarpet the scout room. The only justification I can find for this is that those districts are more rural and there might not be as many opportunities as we city dwellers have. All I ask is a little consistency within the council. If any of those projects had come before a board in my district, I doubt that they would have passed.

Check with your Order of the Arrow Lodge or Chapter to see if they do AOL and/or Crossover ceremonies. I'm a Chapter Adviser and our ceremonies team did their first crossover of the year this past Monday. We have another eight lined up in the next few weeks.

Interesting article about some atheltes who are in top condition. http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/01/27/grueling-workouts-blame-hospitalization-iowa-football-players/?test=latestnews

Event profit is one of those "dirty little secrets" that most people don't realize. I have no problem with it most of the time. The one issue that kind of rankled some folks was the council making a profit off of Jamboree as there was very little involvement by professionals. But that is also true of most events. I went to both the 2005 and 2010 Jambo. The 2005 Jambo was $1900. The 2010 Jambo was $3000. We finally filled our three troops, but it wasn't easy at that price. When people found out that part of what they were paying was a % to the council for profit, it didn't sit too well. The up side, we came in under budget and everyone got around a $200 refund. I suppose the council could have claimed the windfall without anyone really knowing.

eagle007, As far as I know, it was no more than a threat of a lawsuit. Probably because they didn't have a leg to stand on. Not that the council has to run anything by me, but I'm enough in the loop that I think I would have heard if they had moved forward.

I was an ASM for the 2010 Jambo. We had a boy who was almost as wide as he was tall. He was warned up front about the height/weight requirements. He was allowed to sign up and make payments with the clear understanding that he had to lose weight over the next 18 months in order to go. While the doctors reviewing the health forms would fudge for 20 or 30 pounds over or for big kids who were ahtletes, they did have their limits. Reviewing 40,000 health forms takes a good deal of time. A month or two out and after being fully paid, the boy was told he could not attend. It caused some hard feelings and embarassment on the boy's part and his family threatened to sue. But he had been told up front that if he didn't lose weight, he wouldn't be able to go. There was never any indication that he and his family did anything to address his weight and get him in shape. For those who might forge their doctor's signature and lie about their weight, the high adventure programs will catch you and weed you out at base camp. Hopefully no adult would head off to Philmont thinking that if they show up overweight, the staff will just turn a blind eye and let them go. They won't.....and you'll have ruined the trip for everyone in the group for selfish reasons. Our troop does a high adventure trip each year to the BSA's high adventure bases. The kids who are overweight are allowed to sign up. The SM makes it VERY clear up front that by the time the trek occurs, they will be the correct weight or they will not go. Edited to add, we do let the overweight kids go on the shakedowns. That is the purpose of shakedowns. They learn the skills they need for a trek and get to figure out early if it is their cup of tea or not. It is also our trek leaders opportunity to determine if a boy can do it or not. Since we do high adventure each year, we have adults very experienced in gigh adventure who are trained in Wilderness First Aid.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

We had a local high school football player be the name of Kody Turner die in September 2010 from heat during practices. Can't find anything on the internet about any lawsuit or settlement. A football player from Texas by the name of Reggie Garret died the same week as Kody. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2010-09-19-texas-reggie-garrett-quarterback-death_N.htm Here is a case where a Max Gilpin died during football practice. The parents won a $1.75 million settlement for wrongful death. http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2010/09/max-gilpin-school-football-death-suit-settles.html High school football coaches are trained and educated in their profession. Scout leaders are not to the same degree. A little common sense goes a long way. If it is hot AND humid, you can often sweat fluids out faster than you can take them in. I'm hot natured and a heavy sweater. I can guzzle water and still get dehydrated. I disqualified myself from a high adventure trip backpacking trek when my legs cramped up 7 miles into a shakedown. You have to know your limitations and you have to watch those you are responsible for. Err on the side of caution or wind up in court.....even if the case has no merit or not.

Beavah, "Yah, folks, a form is just a form, eh? It's paperwork, not policy." A form that you put your signature on. While the two times in my life I used lawyers were not positive experiences, I do trust them enough to heed warnings about the power of your signature on a form and being held accountable to the words on the form you signed.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

ScoutNut, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx

To expand on Calico's final sentence. Back when my son was playing little league baseball, he was fortunate enough to be on an exceptional team that won every league and tournament game they played. In fact, almost every time, they would run rule the other team. This wasn't a hand picked team, just a bunch of kids in the right place at the right time with some good coaching. Because of that, they were not very well liked by many of the other teams. To make a long story short, they were in a tournament and it was the final game for the championship. For whatever reason, the umps began blatently making calls against our team and looking the other way for the other team. In short, the umps threw the game to the other team and gave them the championship. The only comfort we could give a bunch of hurt 7 year olds was that THEY knew in their heart and mind that they were the true champions and that while the other players took a trophy home, they knew they didn't really earn it. I don't know who or why you might want to revoke an Eagle. Like Calico, I think I would let it go. If the person didn't really deserve it, they know that in their heart.

Congrats to you and your son!!! My son did his EBOR on 12/14 and we are waiting for the official okie dokie from national.

Profeciency in first aid skills. Let me say this about that. If you are regularly having to use first aid skills enough to become profecient at them, you might be doing something wrong in the rest of your program. You really shouldn't have all that many people getting hurt on outings.

You know, the question was already being discussed in the other thread. I see no reason for 50 fractured threads on the same subject. It breaks the flow of the conversation and gets confusing trying to figure out where somebody said something a day or two ago. Let's just let the threads flow naturally please.

Our council just relaunched their website, so I was browsing around. Went to the staff directory. In addition to District Executives, we now have District Directors and a Senior District Director. The SDD is the guy I know as my DE. Have these titles been around for a while and my council is just now getting around to using them? All three of the titles function as DE's.

Yep! A boy learns. A boy is tested. A boy is reviewed. He does this at his own pace and when he thinks he is ready to be tested and requests it. Not when WE decide he is ready. If he shows profeciency while being tested, he'll pass. If he doesn't, he won't. It only takes a couple of times finding out that he isn't getting a participation card punch for him to learn that he has to put more work into it and know his stuff before asking to test.

Barry, For me, a big part of the issue is who is the deciderer to borrow a phrase from Dubya. When our SAM ocasionally asks a patrol if they cleaned a dutch oven properly, they will respond yes. He then asks, would it be clean to my satisfaction? That is when they go get it and clean it again. That satisfaction varies from one person to another. Beavah wants to know that they "really" know the skill before he will sign it off. To me, if the requirement says, do, tell, show, etc. and they can do that, they have passed the requirement. If the boy stumbles and hem haws around and only gets it half right, I won't sign off. I'll send him back to study more and return when he can do it. But I'm not going to tell him he needs to show me for three months or wait three months from when it was taught to him. I guess another way to do it would be to tell the boys not to approach you about advancement and that you will come to them and sign off when you have a certain satisfaction from watching them over a period of time. But I don't think we will find that method in any BSA literature. We tell the boy HE is responsible for his advancement. For me, if he can do it correctly and confidently and explain it, he has met the requirement. That is "my" satisfaction standard. Now, regardless of how an adult determines that standard, it is incumbent on us to make sure the boys are being taught what they need to advance and that we offer a program that will allow them to repeatedly use those skills. We should never treat an advancement requirement as a one time punch card item. He should be learning the skill becuse he will be using it and needing it in the future. One of the best retests I can think off is being a Troop Guide, Instructor or teaching a skill during a troop meeting. You have to know your stuff when you are in the spotlight.

Dang it! Why isn't there a Wood Badge knot? And a Wood Badge Staffer knot. And a Wood Badge Course Director Knot. Come to think of it, we need an NYLT knot. I'm thinking an OA Vigil knot might be a good thing. Then there is always the, I pull the troop trailer knot or the Popcorn Kernel knot or the I'm an adult who survived summer camp knot. Life just isn't fair.

Beavah: "The troop program should afford him many opportunities to use the skill so that there's no doubt the skill is learned is the first step to advancement. Only after the lad has really learned the skill (not just done it once) should he be tested and signed off (Advancement step 2)" Yes, the troop program should afford him many opportunities to use the skill. That being said, who makes the subjective decision of when the boy is ready to test for advancement? You teach him a bowline on a campout. Do you wait one, two or three more campouts before you allow him to display his ability to tie the knot? Me, I'm lousy at knots. I have books on knots. I keep a piece of rope in my daypack so I can sit at my desk at work and practice them. Let me go a few weeks without tying knots, and I've got my nose back in the book retraining myself. After all, we are a boy led troop and our troop guides do all the teaching to our new scout patrols. They learned from their troop guides. The boys set up their own patrol sight. I just don't get to use my knot skills very often, even though I go on the campouts each month. My son, he never met a knot he could forget. He fell much closer to his mother's side of the tree and is one of those people who learns it and retains it from now on. You can call on him at a moments notice to teach another kid how to tie a knot. Six years ago when he was working on Tenderfoot, he had peers who couldn't hardly tie their shoes, let alone any knot for scouting. Show my son once, and he had it down. Why should my son be denied to display his knot skills for advancement based on an adult's decision that he needs X amount of time to "really" learn it? The scout advances at his own rate. If he comes to you to do a requirement, you have an obligation to allow him to attempt it. If he can't tie it or ties it incorrectly, you don't sign off. If he does it and can explain it to you and tell you how it is used, you sign off. I dislike "punch list" advamcement as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to keep telling a kid "later" and denying him a chance every time he comes to me wanting to do a rank requirement. They get discouraged and you will lose them.

Ahhhhhh, who cares about the solstice. How about that lunar eclipse? Not to hijack the thread, but I will tell you my solstice surprise story. A few weeks ago I had shoulder surgery. As a result, I've been sleeping in the recliner. The door to the patio is just a few feet from the recliner. My wife is up and down all night, so I'm used to hearing her come into the kitchen for a drink. About 1:30 AM, I'm sleeping in my chair with the cat in the middle of my chest as usual. I hear a noise that rouses me. I call out my wife's name and don't get a response. I hear another noise and the cat jumps down to investigate. I figure the other cat is out roaming and he wants to see what she is up to. I hear another noise that sounds like it is coming from the back door. I look over my shoulder and see the door knob to the patio turning! Suspense movie time! Oh my gosh, someone is on my back porch trying to get in the house! What do I do? Do I turn on the lights? Do I open the Door? Do I go get a knife out of the kitchen? What do I do. Now, I always check all the doors before going to bed to make sure they are locked, so I know whoever it is can't get past the deadbolt. Then.........the door opens! I flew out of the chair ready to defend my family from these evil intruders. My son walk thru the door in his boxers. Dad? What the H E double hockeysticks are you doing outside at this time of night. I'm looking at the eclipse. I was trying to be quiet so I wouldn't wake you. Did I scare you? Slightly. We then proceeded to go out and look at the eclipse......on the winter solstice. True Story!

I think I've revealed this here before, but our troop does a retest. A good number of us ASM's don't agree with it, but it is how the SM wants to do it. I'd say we follow the program pretty religiously until it comes to this retesting. We have what we refer to as an ASM conference that preceeds the SM conference. It is at this ASM conference where a boy gets retested on his rank advancement stuff before getting to schedule an SM conference. The SM conference and BOR are pretty much the BSA standard fare. Our SM is a great guy and has run a great program for 10 years now. That being said, he can sometimes be the 800 lbs gorilla in the room and there are things he won't budge on....like doing ASM conferences. You pick your fights. Many of us have agreed that when the day comes that he retires, the ASM conference goes out the window.....because it adds to the requirements which is against BSA policy. The other issue is that the SM has never really told the ASM's HOW he wants these ASM conferences to be done. Me personally, I have a light touch. The younget the boy and the lower the rank, the more I let things slide. I also take the boy's personality into consideration. Some kids just aren't overly confident and assertive. You have to draw things out of them. WE lost a good kid just like this a few years ago over an ASM conference. The ASM was a lawyer, so he stuck to the letter of the law more than the spirit of the law. He had a luandry list of items this kid had to do perfectly to pass. They did the conference over three different days....several hours per day....and he failed. It wasn't that he didn't know his stuff, it was how he was treated. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me that I would never put too much stock in retesting and that we would eventually eliminate this practice from our troop.

As a long time member of many, many internet forums, "call out" threads are considered extremely poor nettiquette. You can argue your points inside a thread without making an individual user the subject of the thread. The moderation here is practically non-existant. If you want to see moderation, take a trip over to Sean Hannity's forums where there is a forum called Talk To The Moderator. They have "civility" rules and people actually report on each other if someone steps over the line. Even though they have a list of "rules", it isn't hard and fast and the mods get to make the call. I laugh everytime I see someone get there hiking shorts twisted over the "moderation" here.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Knot Head. Download the iBooks app and you can download all of those PDF files from USSCOUTS and store them on your bookshelf for reading without going thru the browser. Much handier if you are off the beaten path and can't get a signal.