SR540Beaver

scoutingagain, Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm being too much of a stickler, but here is part of my problem. The merit badge says to "review and discuss" Safety Afloat. The rank requirement says "tell". To me, that means a working knowledge. It might have been acquired during work for the MB, but until he tells it to me after he has reviewed it and discussed it, I'm leary that he really knows it. The first boy I worked with on this requirement was our SM's son. I think he had read it and thought he could breeze thru it with me. He got one or two points of Safety Afloat and started guessing at the rest. I even asked him leading questions and he still couldn't answer. I told him he didn't know it and as much as I hated to do it, I couldn't pass him on it. He had to learn it because it is important to know when he is out on the water. He was in tears because he was convinced he was going to get another requirement ticked off. I promised to make time a the next meeting if he would go home and study it. He came back the next week and nailed it! I took him back into the meeting and heaped praise on him in front of the other boys. I think the two requirements are different and unless the boy could explain it to me pretty well, I don't know that I'd allow him to double dip.

I guess I'm old school too.....and I have not been in this scouting game all that long. I don't want the program so hard that it frustrates a boy, but I don't want it so easy that they can buzz thru it on auto-pilot. We were not pleased with our summer camp experience last year. About mid-week, it came to our attention that the young man "teaching" fly fishing was playing card games with the boys in his class. He'd tell them where the fishing poles were if they wanted to go fish as he played games. The problem was rectified after a visit to the camp leadership. When we got the report on our boys at the end of camp, each one who had taken the class had been signed as completed. We told them that we couldn't take the badge away since it had been signed off. Each one of them gave it a couple of minutes thought and said, "I didn't do the work and I didn't earn it". I was proud of them. I was ticked that their money had been wasted though. I have similar feelings towards the merit badge fairs. I think one of the major problems with MB's is that we make them to readily accessable in summer camp and at fairs. The boy never has to lift a finger to actually make contact and set up meetings with someone and do the work over a period of time. As someone said, the path of least resistance. With all the "demands" (real or imagined) on today's youth, they are going to go the easiest route they can. Especiaaly if everyone else does it and it is sanctioned by the district and council. My son was the one who decided to get into scouting and dragged me into it with him. I know what it should be and try to make it that way for our troop. I am however disheartened by how it really is sometimes.

The discussion about how to handle a parent cooking for a patrol on a campout prompted this thread. We had a boy who took the canoeing MB at summer camp last year. He is a 2nd class working on 1st class. During a discussion between the SM and ASM's and the boys about advancement, this boy announced that his mom committee member and treasurer) had signed off on requirement 9a, "Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat" since he had completed the canoeing MB which says in 4d, "Review and discuss BSA Safety Afloat, and demonstrate the proper fit and use of personal flotation devices (PFDs)". The SM told him that his mom (a nurse) is authorized to sign off on first aid requirements, but not for Safety Afloat. That is one of the requirements that I typically sign off for. The SM reminded him that sign offs need to go thru him or the person authorized to sing off on specific requirements. I totally agree with the SM and have had a few discussions with my own son when he wants me to sign off on a requirement. Even though our SM has no problem with me doing that, I don't want anyone thinking I'm letting him skate. This boy and his mom is one of the reasons I have this own personal rule. He completed every activity pin in Webelos when his mom was the den leader and we knew for a fact that he didn't do the work. Where am I going with all this rambling? Does the requirement in the canoeing MB cover the requirement for the 1st class rank or not? Since I am the one who signs off on Safety Afloat, I have a feeling he will come to me and ask me to sign in place of his mom.

nldscout, I rarely if ever speak harshly to anyone of this forum. I will try to keep this as nice as possible. I thank you for your service to our country. I'm sorry that your experiences have led you to have little compassion for your fellow man. I do not believe that you understand the oath and law and as a result probably should not be in a leadership position in scouting. You have taken an OATH to obey the scout law and to help other people at ALL times. Attitudes are infectious, and I wouldn't want my son following your example. Let me ask which you would prefer. Our troop is coming down the highway on an outing and we see you dragging your bloody self across the road from a wreck. Should we stop and help you or should I tell the boys that "self help is the best thing for a persons dignity" and that if you can drag youself 100 miles to a hospital that you'll be a better man for it?

I love free speech and the open exchange of ideas as much as any one else. I have no desire to ask the mods to close this thread and won't. I would like to ask everyone to just let this thread finally die a natural death. It has outlived it's usefullness. It has turned into senseless bickering and rehashing of things that were said 3 or 4 pages back. Let it go guys. Let it die. There are and will be other threads to comment in. Happy New Year!

Rarely does anyone use multiple names in the same forum. Why would they? What is to gain. Typically, the multiple name problem comes up with a user who has been banned for bad behavior and uses a second name to bypass the ban and continue with their games. We had one fellow here who did this. In addition, he went thru a stint of actually having multiple names all at the same time and presented himself with personal data for each persona that was contradictory. He claimed to be single and married. He claimed to be from this state or that state. He claimed to have a number of children or no children. He was playing everyone here and had a vendetta on one poster in particular. In short, the man had serious issues and needed professional help. He went beyond playing the devil's advocate. His purpose was to disrupt the forums. I think it made him feel important and God like that he could pull the wool over everyone's eyes. I always imagined him sitting at his PC like a 5 year old with glee in his eyes over the prank he was playing. The guy I'm speaking of has been kicked off of other scouting forums for the same bad behavior. In a forum like this, what would you gain by posting today as XYZ and tomorrow as ABC and the following day as 123. The only reason I can think of is present different voices of opinion and to be devious. You can do that as one person just as easily. It IS untrustworthy.

Censorship getting strong? Oh, I don't know, take a look at how many threads there have been over the years and tell me how many have been closed. Two this week. How many do you recall before that? One started out asking what had become of Bob. Some chose to be less than scoutlike and air their complaints and even throw in a few other names. The thread had served it's purpose and was tilting off topic. Since some people couldn't seem to police their own ill feelings, the mods simply closed the thread. If you have a scout who is mishandling a 22 at summer camp, do you take it away or let him keep waving it around? The mods give a lot of lee way. Some people overstep the boundaries. The oath and law applies to scouters as well as scouts.....at all times. Do you allow scouts to sit around the campfire and bad mouth a fellow scout repeatedly....especially if he is not present to defend himself? Think about it.

Fuzzy, In a perfect scouting world, the CO recruits a COR and the CC. The CC recruits additional committee members and an SM. The SM recruits ASM's. The SM is responsible for running the program while the committee is responsible for supporting the program. Since the SM "works" for the CC who works for the CO, they can counsel him/her on whether or not they are running the program the BSA way. Now, in the REAL world, the unit is usually made up of parents of the boys who are friends or become closely acquainted. They find it dificult to step on toes. Most people think the SM runs the troop. He administers the program and has the most direct contact with the boys. He is out front and visible. Most people are surprised to find out that the CC is actually the top dog in the structure....and even they have to answer to the COR and CO. If you have an SM who is doing it their way, the CC is the one to call him on doing it the BSA way. If you have a CC who backs the SM doing it his own way, it might be time to find another troop.

I've got an interesting question for all the trainers out there.....and it isn't meant to offend anyone. Our district trainer is also the Scoutmaster of our troop. He has told me more than once that his greatest challenge in BS training courses are the leaders who earned their Eagle as boys. They seem to think that they know it all and don't expect to get anything out of the course. BTW, he himself is an Eagle, so it is not a jealousy thing on his part. He likens them to the old timers who remember and want to do scouting the way they did it 25 or 30 years ago. Have any of you other trainers noticed an "attitude" from your Eagle scout leaders?

Would anyone care for any sour grapes?

mmhardy, The Republican and Democratic parties do the same thing.

Merlyn, You never answered my earlier question. "The question then will be whether you Merlyn will be satisfied that the government and BSA have been seperated or if you will continue your crusade against the BSA for other reasons?" In other words, if you gain an inch, will you then go for the mile or will your job be done? BTW, you can take Boys Town off the list for Oklahoma. Do you honestly think a public school would be named Boys Town?

Merlyn: "I think it's likely that the BSA will again decide to change their policies when faced with the possibility of losing thousands of charters from government agencies due to their discriminatory requirements." I doubt it. There are plenty of NGO's out there who have deep respect for the BSA program that will be more than willing to pick up the slack and keep units from folding. If all government entites quit chartering units, it will have almost a zero effect on scouting. The question then will be whether you Merlyn will be satisfied that the government and BSA have been seperated or if you will continue your crusade against the BSA for other reasons?

I'm hoping BSA comes out with a uniform that has dark colors and vertical stripes! They are so slimming!

I like Bob. I respect his knowledge of the program and his advice. That being said, Bob could be so black and white, by the book and blunt that he came across occasionally as being tactless. But, he was right 99% of the time. Bob has suffered many childish tantrums and attacks from people who wanted to do it their way for whatever reason or excuse they could dream up. Sometimes, Bob would get angry and leave and return after people begged him to come back. I think I may have been one of those people in the past. Bob is a big boy and can make his own decisions. While I'd like to see him return, I won't ask him. Again, that is his own decision. Heck, who knows, he might just be taking a breather. Bob and I post on another forum and he has not been posting there either. Happy Holidays Bob! I hope to meet you at Jambo along with Eamonn. FOG. I am always amazed at the people here who profess to miss him and what he "offered" the forums. The man had deep troubling issues at best. Go back and read his and many of his multiple personas posts and see just what he actually contributed. I'd venture to say that it was very little. His purpose seemed to be three fold. One was to always be the fly in the ointment, the contraian. Two was to crack snide, cynical one liners. Three was a fixation on Bob White and trying to make his life miserable. To those who don't know, when FOG was banned from here, he followed Bob to another forum and picked up where he left off. The admin was far less tolerable there than here and was constantly having to issue warnings and delete messages for being off topic. FOG (Yaworski) didn't last very long there before being banned. I for one do not miss him and hope he finds the help he desparately needs. I'm glad he is gone.

Your beef is with the BSA who has seen fit to recognize leadership with knots to be placed on uniforms, not the people who wear them.

Backpacker, So in your opinion, adults should not be recognized for the dedication and contribution they make to scouting? Knots really are only a small token of appreciation and recognition for the sacrifices of time, effort, sweat, blood, love, talent and money made by volunteers. What would you suggest giving them instead? Do you think it is showing off for a boy to wear his rank patch on his pocket or his religious emblem?

SP, In general, I agree with you. However, the scenario I gave actually happened in our council where a business didn't donate to FOS because they had donated to a troop. From their perspective, they made an annual donation to SCOUTING, which was correct. To the council who scrapes for every dime they can to support the total program for all units, they missed out while the individual unit made out. It is probably rare, but it can happen. And yes, units do ask for donations all the time. We had a committee member who contacted Cabelas when we started our troop about 6 months ago. They sent us a nice tent free of charge. It sure came in handy this past weekend when one of our scouts old worn out tent started coming apart at the seams when he was putting it up.

Soooooooo, perhaps we shouldn't have the boys sewing their rank patches on their pockets. We don't want them bragging or other scouts giving them undo attention based on their acomplishments and experience in the program. Understand, I have not been in scouting long enough to have EARNED any knots and I'm still about half a ticket away from my beads. It does not matter to me how much fruit salad a guy has, I'll listen to anyone and weigh their suggestions against what I already know about scouting. If something is suspect, I'll look it up. But the knots and beads they've EARNED DO show a certain level of committment and experience. There is nothing wrong with an adult being recognized for their achievment and displaying the symbols for it. Isn't it doing a disservice to the boys to downplay one of the very things we encourage in them? If you earned them, wear them. Humility is a wonderful thing. Pride can be too. I have a non-spoken desire to one day be awarded the Silver Beaver. Why? For prestige? No. There is a gentleman who was very instrumental in my youth. He was my first baseball coach when I was in 1st grade. He was my Cubmaster. He was one of the adult sponsors of my church youth group. He was a Captain in our fire department and went into the ministry after retiring. He was a Scoutmaster. One of his sons was a best friend thru high school. The man sang at my dad's funeral. He has lived a life of service. I have turned to him for advice when I had become disillusioned with problems in a former troop. He has promised to attend my beading and wants to know if/when my son earns Eagle so he can be there. He earned the Silver Beaver 25 years ago because of his hard work and dedication to scouting. I want to earn the Silver Beaver someday because I honor and respect this man and I want to follow in his scouting footsteps. I don't delude myself. If I expect to be nominated someday, it will be because of hard work and dedication to assisting young men to be the best scouts and persons they can be. I want it for the right reasons and not for prestige. I see no problem wearing knots and beads for the right reasons.

Pack, The problem is FOS. Council solicits donations from companies and sometimes those companies say, "oh, we donated XYZ to Troop XXX this year" and they don't want to donate anything else to scouting. Then Council gets very unhappy with an individual Troop taking away funding they have counted on for years. I raised the question about soliciting funds for Jamboree from local companies earlier this year. While we ended up not doing it, I did obtain permission from the Council as long as we made it clear to the company that the donation is over and above their FOS donation.

OGE, What are we looking for in the announcements? The last one I see is from October.

Ed, It is called an analogy. You are correct, if people didn't commit crimes, there would be no criminal cases. Likewise, if civil rights were not violated, the ACLU would go out of business. Do a google search and you will find that there are a number of conservative civil rights legal groups who do the same thing the ACLU does. They go out and dig up cases that reflect their mission statement and drag them before the courts. Guess what they do? They provide their services free of charge to their clients. Know who pays for their services? Same as ACLU, they get their costs paid by the party they are suing and your tax dollars if it is the government being sued.

Ahhhh, platform shoes and big bell pants and oversized velvet bowties.....those were the days! I have pictures of myself buried somewhere deep in the forest that my son will never see. You can't control what another person's kid wears. You have to deal with them the way they are. That being said, take a few pictures to share with them 20 years down the road and see if they don't agree how silly they looked. Then give the pictures to them so they can go bury them in the forest.

I agree with Barry about leading the horse to water. I've visited with Barry offline recently about the outings the boys in the troop I serve are planning since he and I live in the same area. The troop I serve is only about 6 months old and is made up of 11 and 12 year old boys less than a year out of Webelos. Ask them where they want to go and what they want to do and you get blank stares. They came from an adult led program and don't have enough life experience yet to know of many places they can go or what to do when they get there. What we had to do this month for planning the first 6 months of the coming year was to put a variety of locations and activities in front of them and let them pick from them. If they say no to a location; fine, it is off the list for now. If they trow in someplace that isn't on the list; fine, it goes on the list. At this point, we report, they decide as the cable news channel likes to say. As time goes by and the boys and troop matures, they will be more likely to start coming up with outings entirely on their own. It is easy for them to claim that a campout is lame if the adults do all the planning. Hey, I could give them a list of places and activities off the top of my head that I think would be crackerjack. They'd probably turn their noses up at it and complain all weekend at each one. The outings will only be as lame as they make them if they are in the drivers seat. I think part of battle is in getting the boys to understand that the greatness or the lameness of an outing is in their hands. If they think the district camporee is lousy, don't force them to go because it is tradition.

Ed: The judges wouldn't even have cases like these if the ACLU didn't dig up people to retain them to pursue these cases! The judges wouldn't have criminal cases to deal with either if the police didn't go out and arrest people. Some people approach the ACLU with civil liberty cases and the ACLU keeps an ear to the ground for cases that they feel are civil rights injustices. They exist for a reason Ed and making sure that every US citizen is provided the civil rights guaranteed them by the Constitution are upheld is the reason. What is wrong with championing the downtrodden? Doesn't the Scout Oath say, "to help other people at all times"? Are we to teach our Scouts to only help certain people at certain times?