SMT224

A little history to put things in perspective Back in the teens and roaring twenties there were hundreds of honor societies and honor programs that existed in various scout councils and camps throughout the country. In the early days of the Boy Scouts of America many camps around the country had "honor camper" programs where a scout could progressively earn award patches or have totems stenciled on their belt as they became proficient in different skills. Back then, summer camp was a two week affair, and Scouts interested in becoming part of the camp honor society would go through all kinds of ceremonies during the week-end between two weeks of camp. A partial list of these honor societies is below. One of these honor societies was the Order of the Arrow. Created in 1915 in the Philadelphia Council at Treasure Island Scout Camp. It was originally reported as "Wimachtendienks Tribe" then was known as "WWW" and eventually was called "Order of the Arrow". Through the influence of its founders and the OA followers, many of the other honor societies began to convert themselves into Order of the Arrow Lodges. In the teens and twenties there were only a few Order of the Arrow Lodges, but by 1935 there were only 81 Order of the Arrow Lodges out of the 536 Scout Councils and in existence. By 1950 there were still only 537 Scout Councils but 445 OA lodges had by then been chartered. The Order of the Arrow was adopted by the National BSA Council in 1948 as the primary honor camper association. Alpha Phi Omega Aquehongians Black Crescent Society Black Diamond Society Blue Spruce Lodge Braves of Decorah BSA Camp Promotion Society Buckskin Camper Society Buckskin Men Buckskin Son's of Camp Wauwepex Camp Manatoc Honor Patrol Camp Wisdom Honor Campers Chadwick Braves Chi Sigma Society Clan of the Mystic Oak CMR Honor Society Council Fire Circle Elgae Firecrafter Four M Gimogash Golden Tomahawk Indians of Treasure Mountain Indian Tribe of Honor Campers Kanawa Knights of Dunamis Knights of Yawgoog Ku-Ni-Eh Manhawka Mic-O-Say Mikanakawa Tribe Mohawk Indians Moon Scouts Mound Builders Mystic Arrow Mystic C Nani Ba Zhu No-Su-Ca-Ba OOBADOSTOOM Order of the Axe Order of the Black Arrow Order of Nikiwigi Old Guard Old Guard of Glen Gray Order of the Black Diamond Order Of The Chingagook Order of the Crimson Arrow Order of Kamp Kia Kima Order of the Modern Merit Scholars Order of Owls Order of the Arrow Order of Cochipainee Order of Taunkacoo Order of the Blue Knot Order of the Golden Sun Order of the Links Order of the Mystic Circle Order of the Pawnee Order of the Red Arrow Order of the Rising Sun Order of the Silver Marmot Order of the Solo Hiker Order of the Spear Order of the Tipi Order of the Uinta Moon Order of the White Swastika Pathfinders of the Golden Trail Pawnee Tribe Pequoket Pipestone Honor Powderhorn Polaris Lodge(non OA) Red Feather Sagamore Service Troop SA-KA-S-EMBA Scout Legion Scouts of the Mountain Secret Order of the Black Arrow Senior Division Senior Honor Degree Society Sequoia Indians Silver Tomahawk Ta-Tonka-Saba TIPISA, The Order of the Red Lodge Tribe of Ahwanee Tribe of Aquanuschioni Tribe of the Black Arrow Tribe of Chawanakee Tribe of Chickamauga Tribe of Chief Tonnaleuka Tribe of Gimogash Tribe of Golden Eagle Tribe of Gorgonio Tribe of Ingawanis Tribe of Keokuk Tribe of La Porte Tribe of Manatee Tribe of Matilija Tribe of Mazasha Tribe of Mic-O-Say Tribe of Nacopen Tribe of Nikiwigi Tribe of Oh-Hit-E-Kah Tribe of Oljato Tribe of Pahatsi Tribe of Papago Tribe of Pokagon Tribe of Quivira Tribe of Sha Utes Tribe of Sierra Tribe of Siniwa Tribe of Siwinis Tribe of Tahoe Tribe of Tahquitz Tribe of Talako Tribe of Temescal Tribe of Tonkawampus Tribe of Torqua Tribe of Wakpominee Tribe of Wapsipicon Tribe of Winton Tribe of Wokanda Tribe of Yosemite Vi et Consilio Wabiningo Honor Campers Society Wah Tut Ca Braves Wakondale Tribe of Ohiyesa Indians White Bears White Feather Society White Horse Tribe White Sharks of Tahkodah Wigwam Lodge Wimachtendienks Tribe Wincheck Indians Wolfeboro Pioneers Wolf tribe of Medawewin Wonnux Tribe

awilson70 - I' not sure what you mean by "Old School"...? Do you mean "adult run"? Or that the Troop is solidly boy-led with the PLC and SPL leading Troop meetings and camping trips? If it is the former, that you have some solid ground to stand on to be concerned, and perhaps you and your hubby can work to make some changes in the Troop. If it's the latter, no worries. Either way, I'd suggest joining the Committee in an official capacity and focus on a few specific areas to make the Troop better. If the Committee does not need you help, perhaps you could become a merit badge counselor. If the Troop really has no place for you, I'd be concerned - rarely does a Troop not need a willing volunteer. Once you have settled in and found a place in the Committee or as a capable merit badge counselor, the SM and others may be more interested in your ideas. It sometimes takes time (years!) for the old guys to become comfortable with new parents that want to support the Troop. Perhaps they had some bad experiences in the past with parents who tossed out ideas expecting the Troop to jump at them then and there. As SM, I've had parents approach me in the middle of an activity with service project or activity ideas expecting me to implement them immediately. When I explain that anything we do has to be run through the PLC and Committee and usually needs to be put into the program a year in advance, they are frustrated that we can't be more spontaneous. The bottom line - if the Troop has a good Scout-led program with a healthy PLC and the boys are engaged in outings and advancing at a reasonable pace - and your boys are happy there - I'd not worry at all, whether or not the old guys wanted my help.

Here is a recent article from the Blue Foundation relevant to this discussion... Cussing, Cursing, Swearing, and Other Vulgarities by Dick Rolfe, CEO - The Dove Foundation http://www.dove.org/news.asp?ArticleID=174 Here is an excerpt: "In recent years, society has become obsessed with the harmful effects of second-hand smoke while in complete denial over the destructive nature of coarse language. The F-bomb has become the new heck in our lexicon. What was once considered profane is now termed a mere expletive. Today, the names of God and Jesus are rarely uttered as respectful references to deities, but more frequently used to punctuate rebellious trash talk. It can be argued that this shift has contributed to a growing disrespect for God and the church. According to Proverbs 18:21, The tongue has the power of life and death. "You may have noticed that profanity is showing up more frequently in PG movies. That is because the degradation of social morays is part of the fabric of the Motion Picture ratings system. According to Joan Graves, Chairman of the Classification and Rating Administration of the MPAA, The [ratings] system is designed to adapt to social change. She goes on to admit that, Language is rated much less harshly than it once was because there is so much language in our culture. Ms. Graves comments reinforce the tired old Hollywood axiom that, Movies reflect social behavior, they dont influence it.

Thanks for the replies. After discussing the matter, the PLC decided that the SPL and ASPL will not be in a Patrol and go where they are most needed during meetings and activities, choosing any of the Patrols to join for camping meals (paying their share and helping with cooking and clean up).

Getting ready for the PLC this evening, and am expecting discussion on some changes to our Troop structure. Background - For quite a few years the SPL & ASPL were not in any Patrol, but went where they were needed. To accommodate cooking on campouts, a new Patrol (the X Patrol) was created for the SPL & ASPL and older Scouts who had been SPL or ASPL. As things evolved the membership criteria was changed to allow more and more Scouts into the Patrol. Now, Scouts can join that are 16 & 1st Class, or 15 & Star, or 14 & Life. The SPL evolved into a very casual PL of this Patrol. All this has happened over the past 6-7 years. However, we are now starting a Venture Patrol, and have decided to make the X Patrol a real Patrol with a regular Patrol Leader who is not the SPL. The Venture Patrol will also have a regular PL. The question we need to answer tonight is where will the SPL & ASPL live under the new Patrol set up... are they members of a Patrol? Or do they roam? What Patrol do they camp with and eat with? The current SPL is concerned that if he is a member of a Patrol, will he have to be obedient to the PL? So my question is this - where do your SPL & ASPL live within the Troop? Thanks!!

As SM, I do all the SMC, whether for advancement or just to check in with a Scout to see how he is doing. Most often the SMC is for rank advancement, but I also do an SMC to discuss service projects, Eagle projects, if a Scout has not advanced in the past 6/12 months, if there is a disciplinary issue, or just to see how things are going for the Scout. This forces me to be available and to ensure I am not too involved in meeting activities. I have, and continue to do the SMC for all my sons. The SMC with one of my sons is conducted the same way it is for every other Scout because when I'm SM, I'm not Dad.

I conduct an SMC when approached by a Scout needing one. The SMC is usually held during a Troop meeting, sometimes during a campout or at summer camp. Always well within view of the Troop but out of earshot.

We go camping nearly every month, so several of our Troop meetings in a given month are focused on preparing for camping and then cleaning up from camping. During a meeting, we often do skill work, almost always do some advancement, and try to have one meeting a month for fun - games and skits. Specifics are discussed and planned at the monthly PLC. After flags are set up and Scouts have been called to attention by the SPL, our meetings start with the Pledge and then either the Law or Oath (SPL choice), announcements, and then we move into the evening's activity. Three weeks before a campout, we will focus on skills needed for the campout and related activities. Two weeks before a campout we develop menus and ensure chuck boxes are ready. One week before a campout Patrols assign tent partners, check tents, check all necessary equipment, and discuss campout activities. The week after the campout we clean up chuck boxes, make sure tents are dry and in good order, and discuss what went right and wrong on the campout and what we'd do differently next time. To attend a campout, Scouts must attend all these troop meetings. As the meeting draws to an end, we award any rank advancement or merit badges earned that night, do another round of announcements, and end with either the Law or Oath (SPL choice). Flags are put away and the room cleaned up. Meetings are usually very busy and allow little time for fooling around. Not that it doesn't happen, but usually most Scouts are just too busy. The ones who end up goofing off and engage in chit-chatting are those not going on the campout. These Scouts often need the focus of an adult leader so they don't end up being a distraction.

Perhaps it's Troop culture. Just as the sun rises in the east, Scouts in our Troop know that a BOR requires a full uniform, book, and recitation of both the Law & Oath. No one complains or tries to do differently. It's just the way it is. They also know they will not be re-tested, that they will be asked some friendly questions about their advancement, what they see coming next, and have a chance to talk about what's good & bad in the Troop. Overall, I think the Scouts are proud to show up looking good and proud they can say the Law and Oath from memory. There is nothing wrong with holding boys to a standard. They can handle it.

Thanks for all the responses on this linguistically interesting subject. How we use language says much about our culture - the words we use and when we use 'em. All this reminds me of a discussion I had with my boys several years ago... I was urging them to do a good job cleaning the basement, and said, "Clean that basement but good!" An eruption of laughter was followed by, "Butt Good!!??" "As clean as a butt?" "Butt clean??!!" "As clean as a butt?" Last time I ever used that expression!

I'm not talking about the F word with uck, but another - "Fricking". On a recent Klondike I heard several Scouts use this word in situations where others might say "f**king". This one has sorta snuck up on me - does it merit a "Gentlemen Watch Your Language!" Or is it more in the category of alternative profanity like "cotton-picken" or "gosh-darned"? Has anyone else heard this word? Taken any frickin' action on it?

Our feeder Cub Pack does it's B&G in February, AOL Ceremony in mid-April, and a separate Crossover to the Troop in late April. This seems to work great. We have a Troop/AOL camping trip in early April, which allows the Weebs & parents to meet the Troop and have a fun camp out in what is usually fairly comfortable weather. The full crossover is at the end of April. The new Scouts can go camping with the Troop in May and June - two easy and comfortable camp outs, and then go to summer camp with the Troop in July. By July they are ready and psyched for summer camp and can fully participate in the First Year Camper Program.

Troop tradition should always take precedence over parental demands. If the Pack and Troop believe everyone should crossover, regardless of joining a Troop or not, then it should be discussed in the PLC, and Committee meetings. This is not a change that should be done simply to satisfy a few demanding parents. The parents refered to in the original post by CNYScouter, need to be told that crossover is only for those boys going into a Troop. If the boy in not moving on to a Troop, then he cannot participate in the crossover, and that's that. If they have a problem with it, so what? They're leaving Scouting anyway. When I have pandered to the special needs a few parents it has weakened the overall Program and they end up leaving anyway! It is important to the Scouts that the crossover is only for those going to a Troop. Making a change to satisfy a few confused parents will do nothing but make the ceremony less special to the boys who are actually going to a Troop.

Both as a Scoutmaster and during my time as a leader in the Cubs, I have noticed something that has been fairly consistent over the years: It is the parents of larger families that are the most involved and most helpful. Parents who have 3 or 4 or 5 kids seem to end up becoming leaders more often than parents with one kid, and stick with it longer as well. Logically, one would think that parents who have only one kid to feed and take care of would have more time to be a part of Scouting, but my experience is that the opposite is true. One parent households always seem to have other activities they need to rush off to, or can't make an activity or camping trip because they have other priorities. Yes, one kid families will often crossover with great intentions, but as time goes by, we see less and less of them. Whereas parents with multiple offspring end up being the reliable ones - there when you need 'em! Part of this is the kid too, Scouts who have brothers and sisters seem to do better on camping trips and summer camp, while the one kid per family Scouts seem much more homesick and have a much harder time being away from mom & dad (who are more likely to be helicopter parents by the way!). Are big families better for the planet? Maybe so, maybe not. I don't think it's cut and dried either way. Are big families better for Scouting? Absolutely!!

We did the "Camping Patrol" thing for several years and, as others have stated, it did little to enhance of strengthen the existing Patrols. Finally, after a disastrous camping trip, the PLC decided never again. Now, if there are at least 2 Scouts in a Patrol going on a camping trip, they do their own cooking and tenting. It has worked out much better, and the Scouts are happier to be able to plan menus and tenting within their own Patrol. One change that has allowed this to happen is the removal of the "only 8 to a Patrol" rule. Some of our Patrols have 12, some 6, others 10. With this many Scouts in a Patrol, there are almost always 4 to 8 Scouts per Patrol on a camping trip. The Patrols collect their own money ($10, sometimes $15) and do their own shopping - adults are not involved. This has worked just fine even when there are only 2 Scouts camping - they can get very creative and have a lot of fun doing their own cooking. Lisabob - My recommendation is to discuss in your PLC. Let the Scouts make the decision. The CC or any other adult has no business mucking with this if the Scouts decide they will keep the Patrols together on camping trips.

Thanks for the info. We use TroopMaster extensively, and have come to rely on it. We will discuss the purchase of TroopLedger at our next Committee meeting. I appreciate your comments.

Is anyone out there using TroopLedger? Do you like it? What are the pros/cons? Is it worth $70? Is it better than Excel? Thanks!

Assume you mean August 2009? Not that I'm opposed to going back in time... Camp Potomac is a very nice BSA camp near Cumberland, Maryland, which is in western Maryland. http://www.bsa757.org/index.php?page=camp-potomac Also in western Maryland is Rocky Gap State Park. Great group camping facilities (restrooms with hot water & showers) and a nice lake to swim in (designated beach with life guards). Also some great mountains to hike around in. Our Troop loves it and we often go in August because it's just about the only place in Maryland in August that is pretty much bug free. You can make reservations on-line, and it's easy to get to, just off Interstate 68. http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/western/rockygap.html Along the Potomac River is Fort Frederick State Park, which is in the same area and has good group facilities (a water spigot and portables), and is right on the Potomac (we do not allow Scouts to swim, but occasionally an adult will get wet to cool off) and a 2 minute hike to the C&O Canal Tow Path Trail. Plus the Old Fort Frederick has been restored and is interesting to poke around in. Bugs, but not terrible. However, can get a bit humid and hot. Again, you can make reservations on-line, and it's easy to get to, just off Interstate 70. http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/western/FortFrederick.html

When I became Scoutmaster in 2001, the Troop had 11 boys and was completely adult run. And it had been pretty much that way since the 40's and 50's. Most of the committee had been Scouts in the Troop, and they were used to doing things a certain way - their way. My initial efforts to "make" the Troop a boy-led Troop failed disastrously, because the culture of "how things are done" was so deeply ingrained. From that frustration I learned not only patience, but that change comes slowly. Once I came to understand that I could not force the "boy-led" concept down the throats of the Scouters and Scouts who very used to a certain way of doing things, I started making changes slowly, focusing on Troop-level training and setting up conditions that were conducive to the boys doing more for themselves and participating in Troop-wide decision making. I started doing JLT, instituted a PLC where none had been before, and did programing planing involving Scouts. The Committee was really upset over this and made it very clear I was on my own because I was not doing things "the way they had always been done..." As it turned out, this was a blessing in disguise, as I was able to do things with out their intervention. It took the generation who had been raise in the old way of doing things to move out of the Troop and PLs who had been through the "new" JLT and then NYLT to become troop leaders before "Scout-Led" really became part of the Troop culture. And as others have said, it also depends on the SPL as to how much they take charge of -- some make of good go of it, others need a of intervention to get things done. I do my best to stand aside and let him lead - hard sometimes, but usually worth it. But you can't always just stand aside and let them do what ever they want -- the controlled failure option is ok on a limited basis (especially in the Venture Patrol), but not once it goes Troop-wide. Another hard lesson I learned is that sometimes the Scoutmaster does need to step in when leadership fails or pushes way beyond the Scout Law. I guess the wisdom I'm striving for is knowing when and how to make an exception to the rule. My advice: patience and training. Repeat. Remember, this too shall pass.

I suggest you have a Scoutmaster Conference with him. Sit down (within full view of all, but out of ear-shot) and listen to him. A few leading open ended question will likely get him started and he may have a lot to say. It may be he feels forced to be in Scouts and just doesn't want to be there. Or perhaps he is really worried about his Dad, but can't stand to show it. Scoutmaster conferences are not just for advancement. A Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster can sit down and talk to a Scout for any reason - if he did a great job on something, if he is advancing very slowly, or if he has done something that is clearly outside the Scout Law.

We buy the Coleman Sundome. The 9x7 is $59 at Campmor, easy to set up, durable, has a very water-proof floor, and plenty of room to hold two Scouts and their gear. We have a stock of extra poles, as those will break occasionally, but overall the tent handles considerable use and abuse from the Scouts month after month, year after year. We have a number of 7x7 Sundomes as well ($49), but have found the extra room works out better on winter and wet camping trips. link: http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___20135

Our feeder Cub Pack does it's Crossover in late April. This seems to work great. We have a Troop/AOL camping trip in early April, which allows the Weebs & parents to meet the Troop and have a fun camp out in what is usually fairly comfortable weather. There is a separate AOL ceremony in mid-April, and then the full crossover at the end of April. The new Scouts can go camping with the Troop in May and June - two fairly easy and comfortable camp outs, and then go to summer camp with the Troop in July. By July they are ready and psyched for summer camp and can fully participate in the First Year Camper Program. We do not have any kind of "maturity rating" - they just crossover and either like it or don't. If they discover they do not like to camp, or just can not stand being away from mom and dad, they know it before going off to summer camp and self-filter out. No problem there - not all kids like to camp or be in the outdoors. But we have 75% - 100% retention of the crossovers, so it seems most who were Cubs like being a Scout.

Yep, this one's been 'round longer than dirt itself I would reckon. But found it out there in the ether and had a laugh and figured I'd toss it on our fire. Ok, ok, so I did add the last one... clearly a bit of my own viewpoint showing through. Let's see if you can do better!! Economic Models using Cows SOCIALISM You have 2 cows. You give one to your neighbor. COMMUNISM You have 2 cows. The State takes both and gives you some milk. FASCISM You have 2 cows. The State takes both and sells you some milk. NAZISM You have 2 cows. The State takes both and shoots you if youre the wrong color, religion, creed, or just dont fit in. BUREAUCRATISM You have 2 cows. The State takes both, misplaces one, milks the other, and then files the milk while having a meeting to prepare the necessary paperwork for signature... SURREALISM You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons. DEMOCRATIC PARTY You have 2 cows. The party takes them and sends them to cow college to learn milking and low impact pasturing. Last you heard they are still in graduate school. REPUBLICAN PARTY You have 2 cows. The party names them both Joe sends them to Alaska to be milked from helicopter with a high powered rifle. TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income. ENRON VENTURE CAPITALISM You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. Congress then buys your bull and bails out your company so at least you can get the 35 million dollar bonus you have a god-given right to. AN AMERICAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead. A FRENCH CORPORATION You have two cows. You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows. Later you milk the cows, make cheese, and then sit back with a bottle of Bordeaux. A JAPANESE CORPORATION You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide. A GERMAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves. AN ITALIAN CORPORATION You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You decide to have lunch. A RUSSIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 2 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka. A SWISS CORPORATION You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you. You charge the owners for storing them. A CHINESE CORPORATION You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity. You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation. AN INDIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You worship them. A BRITISH CORPORATION You have two cows. Both are mad. But you have a cup of tea anyway. AN IRAQI CORPORATION Everyone thinks you have lots of cows. You tell them that you have none. No-one believes you, so they bomb you and invade your country. You still have no cows, but at least now you are part of a Democracy... AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. Business seems pretty good. You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate. A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION You have two cows. The one on the left looks very attractive. BOY SCOUT TROOP The Troop has two cows. In early summer, Scouts taking the Animal Science merit badge slaughter one cow and freeze the meat so it last all summer and provides meat for everyone at summer camp. They milk other cow and care for it all summer so everyone has fresh milk. After summer camp they lend the cow to a local dairy until next year when they do it all over again.

Sometime in the far far distance past (maybe even way back to the late 90's), I recall coming across a description on the web of a set practice lashing ropes color-coded by a set length. If I remember correctly, the different lengths facilitated learning lashings. If anyone knows of such information, I'd appreciate a link.

The bottom line is how Adult Leaders are around the Scouts. Smoking around the scouts? Find another place to smoke. Habitual cursing around the Scouts? Do something else for the Troop. Drinking around the Scouts? Unacceptable at any level. Out. Providing Scouts with alcohol? Out. Gambling with the Scouts? Out. Litigating with the Scouts? Out. Most everything else discussed here comes down to someone's own personal business unless it's clearly illegal, adversely effects the Troop, or is blatantly against Scout policy. The morality scale is subjective - it's all relative and can only focus on the Scouts and the Scouting program.