SMT224

Troll like? Me?! What do you mean by that? I was, and continue to, pursue the issue in this forum, which I think is very appropriate. Is it wrong to wonder if there's a linkage between the salary of the BSA CEO and the fiscal revenues of logging on BSA owned land? If such a linkage proves to have no merit, than it will die on it's own. If there is a connection, how ever distant, then perhaps the BSA needs to rethink how funds are allocated and utilized. You have stated, with much capitalization, that you believe that is no connection what so ever. Ok, fine. But do not attack the those who would ask how Scouting money is used and where it came from. These are legitimate issues to raise. I too am a volunteer and paid my dues to the National, Council, and District level over the years. As far as I'm concerned, Scouts are the best thing ever for boys. And girls for that matter. I pursue this issue not to attack BSA, but to find and deal with issues that may open us for attack.

Was serious to ask where did the money come from? Of course! Why not ask? Did he deserve the big bucks? Maybe so, maybe not. I've not seen compelling evidence either way. And then, why not ask where money came from? And again, why not ask what was not done because of the millions BSA has provided so the CEO could live a very comfortable life style? Maybe he totally deserved it, maybe the only way BSA can get quality leadership at the highest levels is to pay the big bucks so typical of today's top executives. But maybe not. I'm not sure why asking these questions has set you off so.

It's interesting to sit back in the old rocking chair and watch the way things evolve. Movement between Patrols is earned by rank advancement in our Troop. For some Scouts this is a big deal, and they advance as fast as they can because they want to join the "big guys". Good? Bad? It seems to work, but only about 3 years into it now, so hard to tell if it's sustainable. Nevertheless has been accepted into the Troop culture as the way to do things. Another quality product from Green Bar Innovations.

What would I reckon National should have spent the money on instead of giving it to Roy...? Hard to say not knowing what they didn't do because of lack of funds, but off hand: - U.S. made uniforms & supplies - infrastructural support to BSA summer camps - camperships - updated merit badge books and other guidance - training - PR Anyone else? What would we spend millions on if we had it? Another question... where did the millions for Roy's salary come from? Were Councils forced to log their summer camps to pay for Roy's 1.5 million retirement package?

ScoutNut, John-in-KC, Eagle92, & BadenP Thanks for the replies & comments. John-in-KC Im sure the local level compensation packages are well thought out and the hard working folks deserve what they get. Im not so much complaining, but attempting to start a dialog what appears to me an excessive amount of compensation at the national level. ScoutNut Im a volunteer too, and I too do not know what Mr. Williams did to deserve a 1.5 million dollar retirement package thats why Im asking. I not saying take away all his compensation, but simply to consider what the BSA didnt do because that 1.5 million went to Roy and not into Scouting Programs. Eagle92 Im sure the challenges on the National level are incredible, what with the almost constant attacks on Scouting. Perhaps Roy deserved what he got. Im a volunteer too, and know, as we all do, plenty of folks that do an amazing amount of work for Scouting and receive no monetary compensation. But when we are told that times are hard and money is scarce and we all need to buck up, and then someone on the National level gets a huge package, you got to wonder why. BadenP Sorry for reading your message wrong.

I'm still waiting for ScoutNut, John-in-KC, Eagle92, & BadenP to explain what Roy did to deserve the millions WE paid him! You guys seem to think that his pay is linked to performance, so his compensation is a-ok... well, what the heck did he do? Personally, I think that money could have been used for better things! I completely agree with Kudu - enough with the corporate BS! The Wall Street model has proved it self useless. Back to the basics!

A good way to think about this is in terms of opportunity costs. National paid the CE millions of dollars over the years to lead our fine organization. Perhaps those funds were wisely spent and that was the best use of those monies. But, how else could those millions have been spent? What if the CE was paid 1/2 the salary and benefits Roy got? How could those funds have been spent? Could the money have been used for other things? As we move forward, what if BSA made a decision to cut the salary of the CE? Would we get short changed in terms of leadership? Or could we get good leadership and have additional funds for other activities?

If the Troop committed to pay for the Eagle Medal/kit, then that is what it must do. An Eagle is an Eagle, whether he chooses to stay on and work with the Troop, or walk out the door and never come back again. A commitment is a commitment, and that's that.

The question, ScoutNut, is not whether the SE in your Council should be paid a decent wage and have enough to retire on. I'm not sure where you got the idea that was the point of this discussion. The question is, was the Chief Executive of BSA, Roy Williams, worth an annual salary of $580,000 and a payment of $1.5 million when he retired in September. If you believe this compensation was appropriate, which I gather you do, I like to know why, and what he did to deserve it.

Kudu - You'll be happy to know that the sorting hat is very congniscent of best friends and spends considerable time visiting the AOL Den observing the Weebs and talking to the AOL Den Leader. I agree that friends are best kept together. Brothers, especially twins, may do better in separate Patrols. Depends on the kids.

ScoutNut & John-in-KC - Do you seriously believe that the salaries of BSA executives would be impacted by a Scouting volunteer bringing the issue with a local council? Based on your messages, it appears that you think the current compensation packages are appropriate. Please help me understand why this is, and what they are doing that is worth that amount of money.

Per information gleaned from The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook by Mark A. Ray (well worth reading/buying Amazon.com!), our younger boy Patrols (where the crossover Scouts go) usually exceed the classic 8 Scouts per Patrol, and often have up to 12 Scouts. Heresy? Perhaps, but it works great as there are always enough Scouts in the Patrols to do things at Troop meetings and on camping trips. From these Patrols the Scouts earn their way to other Patrols by advancing in rank or are aged out of the younger boy Patrols.

Thanks packsaddle! Great article! Concise and to the point, as typical from the Economist. I like their conclusion: "...this campaign is wrong. Even by PETAs own standards it is wrong. Humans are animals too."

The quotation below is taken directly from the January 29, 2009 Seattle Post-Intelligencer story "Execs' salaries amplify critics' concerns" http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/scoutslogging/398082_scoutfinances30.html'>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/scoutslogging/398082_scoutfinances30.html This story is part of a series the Seattle PI is running on Scouting called "Chain Saw Scouting": http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/scoutslogging/ Another thread is focusing on the logging issues reported on in the series, but me thinks it appropriate to have a separate discussion on executive pay. Personally, I think it's disgraceful. Many of the Scout and Scouter families in our Troop are struggling with fiscal issues Roy Williams will never have to worry about, and yet they give their all to Scouting. As far as pure intrinsic value goes, I reckon they (and all the Scouting volunteers across our country) have done far more for Scouts than the highly paid executives. "It can be worth millions to executives who stay with the Scouts long-term. One who benefited is Roy Williams. As chief executive for seven years, his salary almost doubled, topping $580,000 in 2006, according to Scout tax forms. When he retired in September 2007 after a 35-year career, Williams received more than $1.5 million, including $912,000 from incentives for longevity of service. Of the remainder, $404,078 was his pro-rated salary, $71,452 was retirement gifts and recognitions, $11,746 was unused vacation and his first retirement payment of $131,493, according to information provided by the Scouts. Williams is one of the executives who qualified for a "retirement restoration" plan, on top of the usual retirement plan offered employees, which for Williams was worth $2.4 million, paid out over the rest of his life."

We immediately integrate the Crossover Scouts into existing Patrols. We stand them up in front of the Troop and pull their names from an old Troop hat - the sorting hat - and off they go with cheers from all in the hat chosen Patrol. This was a big deal during the "Harry Potter" period, but guys still know it and like it. Seems to work fine as the new Scouts are instantly part of an existing group of guys and can learn from the older Scouts for camping, cooking, and advancement. We have discussed this many times in Green Bar (every year in fact) and the Scouts like it 'cause it brings the new guys straight away into the Troop rather than leaving them out as a Patrol of Cubs.

Right - we had our first organizational meeting, appointed (volunteered!) a Committee Chair, Secretary Treasurer, and a couple Advisers (me one of them!). The next step is to get appropriate signatures and file the paperwork. The girls are excited about doing a high adventure program this summer at our Council Boy Scout camp. They may try to do something this spring, but are feeling good about being part of a Venturing Crew. Thanks for everyone's input on this.

Thanks for the replies - I found some good stuff at Granger, but will stop at the hardware store to see what they have first. For the Klondike I think I will go for a glass or dial thermometer instead of anything digital - I've had such bad luck with batteries at low temps (although I might ask for the one Kenk recommended for my birthday - I like the idea of recording hourly temperatures for the past 24 hours). This is one from Granger I like: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4JZ08

GernBlansten (or anyone else who knows) - What's the ratio of hot water to powdered jello to produce a warming cup of liquid jello? How many cups can you get out of a 3 oz box of jello? Thanks!

I'm looking for a good instrument that is not too expensive to measure winter camping temperatures. We now check temperatures on our winter camping trips on my 1999 suburban rear-view mirror temperature gauge. This registered -9F when I was out with the Girl Scouts last weekend! I have those cheap zipper pull thermometers that are very hard to read and likely inaccurate. I have a digital one that is fine for summer camping and seems ok to about 20, but the battery dies below 10. I'm heading out with the Boy Scouts on a Klondike soon, and would like to get a good reading if things get nice and cold. I saw a web posting for a MicroTemp, MT200, that supposedly has a range between -67F to 428F by measuring infrared radiation on any surface. So it may be adequate for winter camping, but the battery could still die with extended exposure to cold temps. Has anyone used one? Thanks!!

My experience is the Scouting can coexist with the other activities that are out there and the Scouts who wish to pursue them. For some Scouts, sports are really important to them, and they put a priority on games and practice over Scout activities. Others are not into Sports at all, and are totally into Scouting, going on most all Troop activities. The more involved a boy is in Scouting the more likely he will advance in rank and earn more merit badges. It's a trade off, and is something I discuss with Scouts in any Scoutmaster Conference. The boys understand it's a trade off, and if they are really into sports, I let them know they can still attend activities when they can, but we will not change our schedule to accommodate their sports schedule. They need to choose. I have seen some boys come on Scout activities when they have a game, and others hardly come on any activities. We go camping almost every month, so if they miss a couple over a year, it's not such a big deal. The worst thing I have done over the years is try to accommodate sports, music, or family vacation schedules. Trying to please one demanding family by changing dates does nothing but make everyone else frustrated. We do our program planning in September for the following year, choosing monthly activity dates with due consideration to school and other calendars. Once those dates are set, that it - we put out a calendar so everyone knows when the Scouting activities are, and they can choose to attend or not. If a conflict arises, they need to weigh their options and make a personal decision. I discourage Scouts trying to do both - either they come on the camping trip or go to the game. Nevertheless, there are times when it happens, and the parent is completely responsible for all transportation, and the Scout is responsible for dealing with his own camping duties. So far it has worked fine with the exception of a few parents who were pissed because I refused to hold up everyone to wait for their son. Oh, well, they either get over it or leave. Usually they leave anyway, no matter how much I accommodate, so now I just ignore them and focus on those who want to do Scouting activities.

Per another thread in this forum, we too are working to start a new girl-only Venture Crew. We will be having the first organizational meeting later this week, and have decided to keep it girl-only to give the girls a chance to develop some leadership skills. However, some interested boys have gotten wind of this, and, along with their parents, are very interested in joining. We are concerned the boys, with their significant Scouting experience, will take over. Can we (the organizers and advisers), keep it girl-only, or are we required to include any boy that wants to join? Thanks!!

Just got back from my daughter's GS Troop winter camping trip. It got down to -9F!!! The girls really did well! I was surprised that -9F wasn't all that bad. Cold, but not as terrible as it sounds like. Ok, yes, we were in a cabin with a wood stove, so not as intense as tent camping, but it was a drafty cabin with no water, so not like being at home! We took a 5 mile hike in the snow after breakfast, then a night hike before dinner. The girls loved the stars in the clear cold sky, the squeak of cold snow, and the fun of breaking ice on a dark frozen stream. We followed and attempted to identify all kinds of tracks that went everywhere across the snow. They were amazed at all the signs of life in the cold of winter. The did some great cooking on the stove and managed to keep the cabin warm as well. It was a good trip, and I heartily recommend getting the girls out in the winter.

Ha! Yes! Where indeed! That is the question. At the moment it's in a sweet little place called my imagination.

First, a sturdy pen is constructed with a solid rain shelter area. Then one pig is added the first week of Scout summer camp. All of the un-eaten food from the dinning hall from every meal goes to the pig. Scouts care for the pig as they earn the Animal Science merit badge. Each week the pig grows bigger as another group of Scouts cares for it and works on the merit badge. The health of the animal is monitored and feed adjusted / supplemented as needed. The last week of camp culminates mid-week as the Scouts learn how to slaughter an animal. Then everyone enjoys a Pork BBQ on Friday night. Why doesn't this happen at every Scout summer camp in America?

The crossover should really be a separate ceremony. The B&G is a bright fun celebration, but the crossover is a serious ceremony where boys are leaving the Pack - it's a big deal! It's not entertainment! Scouter1960, I really suggest the crossover be pulled out of the B&G and done when the Webelos have their AOL and are ready to become Boy Scouts. No doubt those planning the B&G will have fit over this, but remind them that this is about the boys, not them!