skeptic

If the spouse took it, then could they help the other, assuming it is an issue either with difficulty reading the screens or using the technology? Lots of ways to possibly deal with it, but they need to understand why it is necessary for their doing what they hope to do. Definitely you should have a one on one to determine the exact problem.

Wait a minute; I thought the "Elites" were a late 50's or early 60's duwop group. You mean it isn't?

Desert; Well said.

Much of education is simply practice. Yet, the practice they need, especially in the formative years, is not focused in the right place. Rote has its place. Knowing the multiplication table from memory is far superior to allowing a chart as a crutch. Learning some rules of grammar and how to spell by memory is not a bad thing. But, many curriculum's dwell far too much on making kids the so called modern methods which often just confuse kids.

Another issue is the current idea that somehow average is not acceptable. The standard bell curve no longer applies, as grade inflation is almost forced on the teachers. How dare they grade kids with the grade they actually earned. Too many parents seem to think that their child has to always be on top; and this discourages a lot of kids and makes them afraid to even try. This extends beyond school. I see it in scouting too, in that scouts are far less willing to simply do things on their own.

Certainly can help give a broader perspective on the scout. On the other hand, the query would need to be very generic and allow for flexibility of opinion. In some respects, such a question would do more to see how the scout thinks, than "what" he thinks. Also depends on the age of the interviewee; think the older ones would likely be better subjects for such searching, as they are more mature, theoretically.

JMHO

Perhaps someone might consider making it "humble pie"??!!

Let them wear them; who cares, as long as the uniform is neat and more or less proper. I would discourage them if they are directly involved in the presentation of flags; simply have them take them off for the ceremony, then put them on if they want afterward. No big deal.

JMHO

In my opinion, the "mystique" is nothing more than, as Lisa indicates, the camaraderie garnered from working very closely with the patrol, mentored by dedicated and honorable Scouters. You get a very similar vibe if you attend a course at Philmont I think. Enthusiasm and team participation go a long way in giving Woodbadge its special place in scouting. And, yes, it generally has a kind of unique elan in its membership, even while there is the constant friendly patrol kibitzing. After all, until I became an "honorary Fox", I was only an Eagle; and Eagles swoop down and carry foxes away, don't you know?

The followup to the ticket process strengthens these links to the program I think, as it perpetuates it past the initial group dynamic. And most of the time, the whole patrol knows when one of their members completes their ticket, and they often are at the beading's.

Just my thoughts.

Ahhh; "reasonable". Another word that has little meaning to the overly obdurate individuals on either side of these arguments, or discussions. Reasonable expectations are one thing; but to not have any flexibility or willingness to adjust is not "reasonable".

So, what does it say about the "male mystique", in that all or almost all these responses are from male scouters?

I forgot to mention my early 50's VW Bug that I bought in Germany and drove about a year, tooling all over Bavaria. I had its brakes catch fire on the way back to our site from Munich, but a couple of very helpful locals showed up with fire extinguishers to put it out. The line was burned through, so we towed it in and I arranged to sell it for $50 to a local farmer, as I was rotating home. I parked it across the road from the garage we kept our military vehicles in, and someone forgot to leave a crew cab in gear, but left the brake off due to winter freezes. It rolled backward right into the car. There went the sale. So I signed it over to one of my buddies, and they turned it into a dune buggy and drove it all over the bombing range where we worked. I was almost jealous.

Got a 66 Barracuda to replace the Chevy when I got home in 69. For an 8, it got really good mileage, about 21 on the road. Replaced it with a 76 Datsun B210 in 1976, then a new Mazda 323 in 1988 which I drove 20 years and had 205,000 miles, still getting 31 MPG. But the car was a shell by then. Now have a 2008 Honda Fit, bought new. Only have just short of 15,000 on it, as long trips have become difficult physically and financially.

Interesting rides and drives. My brother's 64 Pontiac, four speed; his wife's 60 something Corvair; a 60 something VW Bus we took to Camp Chawanakee once with 5 scouts (they threatened to get out and walk going up the grade); and a tiny Rambler we stuffed 5 football players in once, along with the 6 foot+ driver. Also drove my parent' 56 Pontiac wagon; it was that awful flesh color so popular back then for a while. Actually was a pretty good car.

No seat belts in any of those early vehicles; and I raced a few times on the long desert roads with sand shoulders. Recently thought about what would have happened should I have hit the sand at around 110 I did once. The Gods were with me I guess.

Also was riding in a crew cab moving van in 62 that was blown over in a desert sand storm. Just glad the door did not come open, as I would have been under the truck instead of just bruised up a bit. Ah, youthful memories; funny how we often forget how fortunate we sometimes were.

Showing our ages I bet if we answer this question. I began driving in a maroon 51 flat head Ford manual on the column. My brother left it at home when he went in the navy; he had chopped the front, added glass packs with two sets of drag pipes. It was the loudest car in the basin (Morongo Basin), and I was always dodging cops. I had to pay half the insurance and registration, as well as all the maintenance; and I also had to give it up to him if he came home. Good thing was, he seldom came home, and when he did, he had his own Chevy, though he still would take the Ford out and hot rod.

First car I owned was a 57 Chevy Belair 3 speed with a 283 Corvette engine. Put the stick on the floor with a Hurst synchro-loc, went to White Front and got chrome reverse wheels and moonies, put a Covico steering wheel on it, and joined the local car club, The Dusters. Then went in the Air Force and my parents sold the car because "it was in the way and an eyesore" where it was stored on blocks. You would have to see the house to understand the irony of that. So, when I came home after 3 years in Germany, I had to buy a new car instead of finish the Chevy. Oh well; it was great at the time.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

David;

Is this something that might have been in Scouting Magazine? I have quite a few paper copies of it from the 30's and so on. If there is a date to review, let me know, and I will see if there are any photos.

Am making an effort to share historical photos from my archive gleaned from the net over the past few years. Posting them on the Scouter Facebook page if you are interested. Enjoy.

Just curious; isn't the male "mystic" the guy on the top of the mountain?

While we do not have the same cold weather issues of those in other parts of the country, we still do have below freezing on occasion at our winter camps, and of course snow days too.

All camps and trips in cold weather should have prep and planning, including a thorough review of hypothermia symptoms, and what to do. This includes trying to make everyone aware that keeping an eye on their buddies and others is important as well. Too often, the victim has little or no awareness he has a problem. And of course adults need, as noted, to assure boys are not ignoring wet clothes and are hydrating properly.

No one should be sleeping alone in severely cold weather, as they need to have others there in case they have problems. These are the times when crowded tents may be better, due to body heat accumulation; and it is a good idea to have voice contact with a nearby tent. Of course, make sure they DO NOT go to bed with damp clothes, even though they may get cold briefly while changing. And, a beanie or other warm head covering, along with dry socks are a must, as well as proper insulation beneath their bag AND tent.

One other thing that helps, is to try and make sure they all urinated before bed if at all possible, as that can be a real problem in the middle of the night if it is really cold out.

Prepare, use common sense, and have fun.

So, then it is even MORE important for those in the trenches to try and assure a quality program, including "real" skills and leadership growth. There is no reason to not take the high level performance as a troop goal, rather than aim at the minimum.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder why some on here are still involved, if they are; as they certainly do not seem to be getting any joy or fun out of it based on their bitterness. Hopefully they do not pass that attitude to scouts, if they are still actually involved.

JMHO

Few council executives make the COR's to be actively involved, as it would possibly detract from their hand picked group of supporters; the same may be the case with district chairs, though ours certainly IS involved on the exec board.

Reality is that should most COR's actually participate in exec board decisions, many things might change. It is really too bad that so few do.

Being familiar with both, as I took it originally in the 80's, then was on the transitional 21st staff as a guide, I see pro's and con's to both. But, at least in the two courses in which I was involved, the real knowledge and growth was the patrols, which is still the same, other than being more mixed perhaps due to all various program participants being mixed.

Functioning as a patrol, and becoming a close knit group, is the basis for the rest, whether the focus is more on cerebral leadership skills, or traditional pioneering skills, or a combo of them. And the morale and knowledge support continues during the ticket process in most cases. Most participants, it seemed to me, learned as much or more from fellow patrol members.

They both were beneficial to those taking them if the participant took the "intent" to heart, and followed through. The few who are "so" negative towards the new course appear to often be the same ones who have "half empty glasses" in many of the other discussions.

There is not absolute in any training material or course. We take away what we internalize and are willing to put to reflective evaluation as to its worth.

JMO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Hawkrod; On the other hand, if did earn the rockers, he accomplished something he could "only" do there. So, I would think that would make up for the fewer merit badges, especially if he had a great time and was exposed to unusual things. Either way, finding that fine line can be hard.

Good luck.

We seem to have a lot of comments that indicate someone "earning" their Silver Beaver, or District Award of Merit, and so on. These awards are not ones you can simply decide to earn. Yes, you can be involved and get your name in the limelight, and even a few may actually campaign for these; but they are awarded on merit for the most part.

We all know some that seem left out, that perhaps "should have" been recognized by now. Still, you seldom see them complain, as they seem to grasp that while it is an honor, it is not what they are there for. And, even though we can say it is not fair, sometimes the SB or AoM are given to people for political or financial reasons.

For years, those that seemed to have sort have "bought" an one of these recognitions, really irked me. But, the real scouters understand the difference. And sometimes the financial or "special access" deserve these special recognitions, due to their major importance within a council.

Whenever I feel annoyed now about these sort of things, I simply try to remember that "my" focus should still be on my troop first, and that the best scouters' awards are the smiles of scouts when they succeed somehow, and, if you are fortunate, a scout from 30+ years ago saying hello and thank you on Facebook, or directly.

JMO

This has been an issue of sorts for years now. But as always, we are comparing apples to oranges again. Few would disagree that First Class today is not as great an accomplishment as it was prior to 1960 or so, as the skill levels are not as great, and they have removed the "official" review past skills from the program. By that, I mean we still can find ways to reinforce many of the skills; but some are just no longer there, the things that often made the scout focus, such as signaling. But Eagle itself is actually far more difficult, due to the project. Even the absolute minimum project is more than was required prior to around 1966. I am not sure if I would have finished Eagle if I had had to do a project, as I was already working, playing sports, and so on. Would like to think I would have, but who knows.

Now, we all are likely familiar with the troops we call "Eagle factories"; but there are fewer than we would think, though the ones that are there skew stats dramatically I think. We have one large troop here that averages 10 Eagles a year. I have sat on many of their BOR's, and some barely have met the requirements. Still, a surprisingly large number are actually very fine examples, in my opinion.

Finally, I would have to agree with the original premise though. As a SM for over 30 years, I have seen a gradual change in the membership focus, as noted. And we have far more of the "overly concerned" parents than we once did. Surely one of the reasons we stay small, and continue to struggle to bring in webelos, is the fact that I personally try to avoid pushing kids too hard, and counsel parents to back off a lot more than once seemed needed. Our troop has fewer than 50 Eagles in just under 90 years, so we certainly would never be considered a "factory". Yet, we seem to have a pretty high proportion of boys stay through high school just the same.

Interesting discussion.

Terry;

Any idea when we may see a biography of Bill? Certainly needs to join the accepted icons of BSA. Thanks.

Picked up a large full square neckerchief with the above on its point; but there is no council designator. It is purple with a white border and has on odd map like design in white below a compass rose with north as a scout symbol. This is all enclosed in a white bordered triangle.

Anyone have any info on this? Thanks.

Thanks for letting me know it twasn't you Pack. Think I figured it out though. It occurs, rereading it, that I had misspelled Webelos; think I wrote Webeloes. But, if that is not the reason, I would still like to know so I can avoid additional errors. Thanks.