skeptic

According to the Museum Facebook link, they had one, but it has been rotated out. They have not yet indicated if we might see another one later, but they admit having recently removed one.

Thought I had seen something there when I last visited a few years back. We will see.

Funny story regarding his signature. In 1985, at the jambo, I had him sign a handbook, but neglected to ask him to sign a neckerchief I was getting autographed by various people. I did land a CSE signature from Ben Love on the neckerchief. When they did not ask for my help in 1989 until too late for me to arrange, I did not go. One of our local adults did me a favor and took that 85 necker with him and got it signed.

When he gave it back to me, there was the signature, bars and all, right on top of Ben Love's name. Now GBB was getting pretty old by then, but it has been suggested that he may very likely have done that on purpose. So, I have a really unique signed neckerchief from 1985.

In regard to West, if you care to find it, you should read the biography by Rowan, as well as the more recent Scott book on the interrelationships of the four principles in the founding, B.P., Seton, Beard, and West. You will really begin to understand the struggles in those first couple of decades.

Pretty sure that actual on water trips, not just paddling around, have had that requirement for a long time. It has kept us from doing some activities due to not having one. They usually will accept a similarly certified person, such as YMCA or other such thing.

I find it somewhat ironic that BP says a National shop does not really check for proper paperwork, while our shop is a stickler. Maybe that is how an eBay seller in our area was able to obtain so many sets of things to sell on line last year, even Distinguished Eagle kits and Silver Beavers. We have a National shop in the valley. I know the individual tried to buy a number of the centennial rank patches in our store and was turned away. He made a killing early on with his items, as there were a lot of people willing to pay high prices to get them, at least initially.

EBay apparently will not crack down on restricted, copyrighted items unless the actual holder of the restriction asks them to. And it appears nobody in National cared enough to do anything. They certainly knew about it, as one of their team was at jambo as my super, and she said they did.

Just is annoying to me.

When I was first divorced, I had a terrible personal guilt, as I am from the period when "divorce" was seen as a black mark on you personally, as well as a sin within most established churches. We were fortunate to have not had kids to enter into the issues.

But, I was helped by my local minister who explained to me a slightly different take on "until death does us part". His view was that the death is of the love and commitment between the two people, not the physical death. God, who is love incarnate, would not expect two people who could not truly love each other, or even possibly respect them, to stay together because they made a "poor choice", especially if very young at the time.

That may fly in the face of many, but it still makes sense to me even today.

But children need to be part of the mix, and everything possible done to mitigate the negative stuff they face.

oldisnew: Some of us are soooooooooo old that we predate Pinewood races. If I had been a cub, it would have not been a part, as I joined as an 11 year old in 1955; so the Pinewood Derby was just being developed.

But I did have some toy cars of some sort, likely models of early 20th century cars; don't really remember when I started building them. And of course, surely I had some kind of basic toy car; but only remember mm dump truck, which was cool because it actually had the back tip if you wanted it to, using a lever on the side; and it was one of those larger metal ones.

Oilman; that must have been hot, literally in the summer. A black interior in Texas during the summer. Ouch.

Interesting the article says he studied kids in kindergarten in 2008 and followed them through fifth grade. His math does not add up, as they would only be in 3rd grade this year.

Whatever, we cannot deny that divorce generally has a negative effect on kids, though some are worse than others. It helps a lot if the parents rise above most of the pettiness, and try to not disrupt the kids life too much. If they can keep them in one school, work to common goals for the children, and be civil to each other they will have far less issues with them.

This article is very cursory, and appears to only discuss young children. The affects on older preteen and teens is possibly even more critical, due to the other physical things with which they are dealing as well.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

I would simply refuse to pay something like that. There is no way they could actually justify it; if you choose to use your own, then why would they care. The only even remote reason would be that they could have used any unused tent(s) in some other part of the camp. But that still would not be reason to try and charge you. Good luck collecting it.

Certainly, should girls be part of the traditional program, they would likely dominate leadership, if what I see in upper elementary and middle school student leadership in indicative. Wednesday I subbed in a school with grades k-8, and they had an assembly for 5th through 7th to allow speeches from students for next year's school council. There were 10 running for 4 fifth grade rep positions, and only 3 boys were on the list. In all the other positions, only girls were running. At that level, few boys seem to have the interest or willingness to step forward. Not sure about high school, but it seems to me that there are more male leaders in those levels, though they too have more girls interested.

Have to agree though that it is only a matter of time.

Personal tents for summer camp can easily be large enough for comfort, as you do not have the weight restrictions backpacking brings. It may take an extra trip or two, if they do not allow dropping off, like most camps do. Just take a family style tent, as someone noted; or use one of the larger domes that have pretty high ceilings, though maybe not high enough to stand completely.

I prefer the savings we have bringing our own; but it also allows for more boys to get practice setting tents up and arranging a longer term campsite. Too, you sometimes can choose a far better spot for your tent than those preset, often on ratty platforms with critters living under them.

Biggest con is simply getting set up and breaking down. Adds to the time considerations. We often have trouble getting really set up the first afternoon, as the schedules, with rechecks and swim checks are so tight. Would prefer to possibly not have the traditional opening campfire, as it really effects the establishment of camp for the rest of the week, and takes away from the first day's routines.

Well pack, we "old farts" do appreciate the clever riposte here, sometimes even when it is directed towards us.

Having attended as a teen in 1960, as an ASM in 85, and this past year on staff, I would agree that the experience is worthwhile and can be a life memory. I also know that it is true, both from my personal experience, and observations as an adult, that those for whom there is no real "skin" tend to view it with far less exuberance, even negatively sometimes.

When I told my parents that I wanted to attend in Colorado Springs, I was 14+, and it was late 58 or early 59. Cost from our area in San Bernardino County was $400, plus about $50 for uniforming, and spending money; so about $500 total. My parents said, well we will pay for your uniforms; if you want to go, earn the rest. And I did. It was definitely one of my most memorable experiences, even today. I only regret I did not take advantage of some opportunities that were there, though I did meet many people from all around the world, saw the president, Ike, met James Arness from "Gunsmoke", saw the Lennon Sisters and Brenda Lee (I know some do not even know who they are), and saw many cool places, Santa Fe, Guarden of the Gods, Great Salt Lake, Cheyenne Frontier Days Rodeo, Salt Lake City and the tabernacle, the huge mine outside the city, and San Francisco. We rode a train to and from, slept in pull down berths (two to a bed), and had the run of the train most of the time. We had 3 troops on the train, and when we went to SF, we stayed in the Grand Hotel and took up an entire floor. Then we went to dinner at a large China Town restaurant where I, along with about 30 or so others, scarfed up on more food than we thought possible, because many were too finicky.

As an adult leader of a troop, I had different experiences, but still saw things I never would have most likely, especially having spent little personal time on the East coast. Then, as a staffer, I was able to see the other part of the huge undertaking, and I appreciate just how much we all owe the volunteers, like ourselves. Without them, nothing would happen. And the camaraderie of Scouting is unique.

Hope I may be able to work out going again in 2013, but will be almost 70, so do not know. And the world is likely definitely out of reach.

While it is true the content is important, especially when writing for a class outside of language arts or lit; but ultimately, the spelling and grammar are on the same level.

JMHO

Yes F-Scouter; I like your list.

When I was in grad school in '74, I had to choose between taking a writing and grammar course, or taking the skill test to avoid it. If you flunked the test, you still had to take the class; so I just took the class to avoid wasting the $50 fee for the test. This was a required class for anyone in the credential program, and all the 30 or so students were upper division of grad, so you would think they would have slightly better English skills.

I was in a twice weekly hour and a half class; and we wrote every day, as well as having regular assignments. The first day the professor gave a generic subject on which to write, due at the end of the period. The next session, the essays were given back, with the requisite corrections. There were only 5 passing papers, and the highest was a C+; I got a D, and was thrilled when I saw the overall results. The rule then was, write 3 A papers in a row, and you pass the class with an A; otherwise, you take a two part test at the end to include writing spontaneously, and a major grammar part. Fortunately, I was out by mid term, having polished up my basic skills to the needed levels.

Point of course is that these were advanced students, most of whom were planning on becoming teachers. Today, as I sub, I have to hold my tongue when I read many teachers' instruction to me, or to the class. I have also had one or two tell me not to correct student's spelling and grammar if it is not language skills. When I was in school, especially junior high and above, you lost points for poor grammar and spelling, even in history or science.

Today's messaging and other forms of short hand definitely are causing issues. But many of them could be solved with simple regular corrections by teachers as they review. Most kids seem to actually appreciate my pointing out errors to them, so I generally try to do it.

Interesting discussion. By the way "sailingpj", you might wish to remember to capitalize English when you write the word. Minor problem I suppose, but certainly important, especially in this thread.

And, after hearing back from the district advancement chair, they are still allowing the letters to be given out by the scout. The problems were occasionally arising when some did not come in on a timely basis, and the Eagle chair asked the boy to follow up. So, now if some do not come in, they are to go ahead with the board anyway after the district attempts to get the missing letter(s); but must happen in about a week after the attempt to get them.

As far as BOR goes, we hold district reviews, and the scout usually only knows the troop rep that sits on the board, and occasionally one or two others from OA or something. The letters are really helpful in that regard, as we seldom really have much background other than the app.

Thanks all for the help. Think I am no longer completely confused; just the norm for an old guy.

The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. "If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references." The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee.

The sentence with the quotes is where our problem appears to lie. If this is the current, most up to date reading, then I am even more confused as why this is suddenly an issue. We have for many years given the candidate the letter forms and cover, then told them to have them mailed to the district board chair or the council office. He has not been directly involved in the actual transmission of the letters, unless he somehow did not follow instructions. A few "have" been asked to follow up; and there is where the flack has apparently occurred.

But our advancement committee's recent decision seems to fly in the face of the above statement, and pretty much discourages the letters.

So, while the scout themselves apparently should not be required to obtain letters, the council/district could arrange to have the troop send out the requests; or they could add additional burden to the actual board of review and ask them to do it, or call.

I think National really needs to review this, and make sure that supporting references "are required in writing". If they feel that somehow this is overburdening the candidate, then they need to specify where the contacts should be made; but it seems to me they should be made by those closest to the candidate. Not sure why it is such a problem to have the candidate request the letters; they are simply mailed to the council or the district directly in some manner. Then the scout will not have them personally. But, as pointed out, this is one more opportunity for the scout to inter-relate with adults on an adult level; it is part of their growth.

Totally agree that a reasonable time frame for the letter receipt should be expected, and no board should be held up due to a missing letter or two. They also need to clarify the "religious" reference, making sure that unchurched scouts understand they can have anyone that is deemed able to reflect on their adherence to the twelfth law.

What I see happening here is that the contact is being thrown back on the review board; and it is not likely to happen consistently, nor be able to be reviewed easily by the whole board. That is why the letters are so important.

Very confusing info coming out of our roundtable this evening about the Eagle references, and the traditional letters. I am still trying to get the specific details on the council advancement decision regarding this, but if I understood the executive correctly, they have decided that the letters are no longer required to be requested by the candidate or his family. If the board wants letters, they themselves will need to contact the scout's references.

Now this makes no sense to me, and seems to take another mode of showing responsibility and ability to communicate with adults away from the scout. It also is putting an unfair burden on board chairs.

The executive said that the decision is based on the advancement committee's interpretation of the National guidelines; that nowhere are letters required to be obtained by candidates. They simply are told to list references; and contacting them is the board's responsibility.

Tried to find written specifics on National site, but of course could not. Maybe someone can point me to the right link, if it exists on line. Will try to read anything in the council office, and also speak with the district advancement chair.

Thanks for any clarification someone here might give me.

Matter of fact, most scout camping was more like car camping in the early days. Only they used horses or mules, along with carts or sleds. Equipment was bulky and heavy. Also, where they could go then had very few restrictions on cutting, fishing, and hunting, so they also did that. There were a lot of day hikes done back then, especially on weekends. Long term camp often had cabins, large group tents, lean-to's, or tarp shelters. When I was a scout and explorer, what the high adventure treks are today was very uncommon for troops; it was generally only done out of a summer camp or one of the National bases. Again, equipment was a huge issue; not so much cost, but simply weight.

Trying to compare today with yesteryear is very often a very uneven comparison. The only real problem with car camping today is that you are usually accosted by idiots with loud music and parties, dogs, booze, and guns. Yet another reason to try to not lose more scout camps. In California now, it is really harder each year to do backpacking much of the year, as they are tending to close areas more often due to fire concern.

So, we do what we can, and hopefully they still are able to do enough backpacking to spend quality time in more serene surroundings, and know whether they want to pursue it further, and make the investments necessary.

Last Sunday I was honored to be invited by my grand-nephew, who is 15, and working on his Eagle project, to participate in a fund raising recital he developed. He has what I would say is an above average project, and he "is in charge".

The recital included about ten numbers done by about a dozen of his friends, both boys and girls. He also let his little 8 year old sister and a friend do GOD BLESS AMERICA at the start. What was most impressive was the way he calmly (especially compared to his mom) took charge setting things up and adjusting. His parents made a huge effort to not take over, though it was hard for "mom".

There were only three adults involved directly in the actual program, and we were limited to very small parts. His father, my nephew, did an invocation; I was asked to say a "few" words about earning Eagle and the intent of the project in the process, as well as set up a Scouting display; and his mom's brother, a doctor at the children's hospital for whom the project is being done said a few words as to how and why he felt it was worthwhile. All the rest was choreographed and organized using only 14 to 17 year old teens. It seemed to be a huge success, though total donations were not yet tallied when I left. It was pretty much a full house.

I am looking forward to seeing the end result, a video designed to walk a child and his parents through the process of an operation at the hospital. The hope is that by having this video available, they can ease the stress that is so common for the children and their families, as they will have a better understanding of what is going on. Besides making the video, with his uncle's help, he is buying the equipment to do it and present it, and donating it all to the hospital.

Yes, I am already proud of him. And I am looking forward to being at his Eagle presentation in the near future.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

"E", don't feel bad. I just discovered this past weekend while participating in my grand-nephew's fund raiser for his Eagle project that the "loser sign" is only valid when done with the left hand. Who knew? And even the word "cool" seems to be cyclical. Being older, I never quite catch up with what is currently in, often embarrassing myself with already out of date comments. What is good about the youth, for the most part, they seem quite willing to accept me that way, and even occasionally try to improve my "coolness". But, I still have no idea how to knock knuckles, or whatever it is they do; they just smile and shake hands instead. Of course that even goes for OA handshakes, as I have yet to master the intricacies of the various levels; I just let the Brother arrange the fingers as needed.

What is beginning to surprise me a bit, as I sub in the upper levels of elementary school is how often the kids actually want to hear stories about your past. I am as old or older than most of their grandparents, and they seem fascinated with how things were when I was their age, or younger. One of my most successful get control things is to occasionally slip a story in about growing up, if time allows. Even the attention mongers generally listen, often having the most serious questions. It is funny to see the looks on kids faces when you mention going to a Saturday matinee with a quarter, and not only getting in, but being able to buy popcorn, a drink, and candy; and there was always a serial, 10 or so cartoons, a drawing for free tickets and candy, and a main feature, usually a B western or early sci-fi.

The longer I am involved with kids, the more I am encouraged by their resilience and good natures. Get past the shells on some, and you find such wonderful personalities. Get the clown to be serious and find a depth unseen normally. My biggest struggle, whether with scouts or the kids in the schools is to try to not overly react to the "difficult" ones, and to remember that the large majority are wonderful little buds of humanity just starting to bloom; and that pruning them too aggressively will not be good for them, but not pruning at all will ultimately be disastrous.

(This message has been edited by skeptic)

IMHO this would work very well with shorts or pants, as you can get almost identical color material in a number of options. If a troop simply adopted a less costly, but rugged option for the scouts it would likely barely be noticed, if at all.

For the shirt, as pointed out, there are a number of options for authentic uniforms. Cubs entering webloes 2 would likely be better off to buy a too large shirt then so it can be easily carried over to boy scouts. Then, when the time comes, again get one that needs a bit of growing in. It is far better they be a bit blousey or long, than they grow out of it in too short a time. Of course, hopefully you can also encourage parents to donate older shirts when they replace their own son's shirt, so you have lenders when needed. Our real problem with our closet is we have almost nothing for the older scouts, as those shirts do not get donated normally.

Ah, it makes sense, almost anyway, that a Scout forum would still not work with anything but IE; just like the on-line advancement and recharter.

With effort I could "grok" the code; but it is too much trouble frankly.

Wonder if it works for me this time? Lets see. Nope, all I get is a pretty lavender box with no way to type or paste. Maybe I will figure it out someday.