skeptic

So, even though they still are only a very small amount compared to what needs to be dealt with, how many billions have now been theoretically cut in the series of extensions. As I understand it, each extension has included some cuts, so we need to add them together. We must be close to that 100 billion that has been bandied about?

I tend to agree with Pack on this. Someone on PBS just said that what we need in the budget and government is a "heart transplant", not just temporary stints.

They had the pamphlet at our store on Monday; so guess it is already in the field.

What is the point of this thread? This has been discussed "ad infinitum" here already. Call it whatever you want, but teach them a method that works. EDGE is one type, but similar models work well too. The main intent is for a scout to understand how to pass a skill on to another scout, demonstrate that knowledge directly, and be able to explain it.

WHY ARE WE NOT ABLE TO SIMPLY ADJUST OURSELVES TO THE VERBIAGE AND RUN WITH WHAT WORKS WITHIN THE GENERAL INTENT? LEARN TO NOT TAKE EVERYTHING "LITERALLY", PLEASE!

Yes, I am raising my voice. Everything does not need to be a problem. Use some rationality and work with it.

Off the soapbox.

Pack; You have me confused with someone else, though I actually did read condensed bio's of Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Tito, and a few others when I was studying that period of history. It is interesting to realize how far the AXIS propaganda arm reached, and also a reflection of our country's freedom that they were able to actually publish such material, as well as hold rallies. Fortunately, that same freedom likely made their success pretty limited, as even then their actions in Europe and Indo-China were becoming fairly well publicized here.

Related is the story of the underground scouting in the countries directly effected by the war. I had the privilege in the late 70's of knowing a Polish gentleman and his wife who were both involved in the Polish underground through scouting. He became a pilot flying out of Britain, and she was captured and survived one of the camps. But he was the Polish equivalent of an Eagle prior to the upheaval. They were involved in a group at the time that kept the Iron Curtain scouting programs alive in free countries. Here they had to be members of BSA, but then joined the unit from their cultural background. They learned the language, customs, and reproduced the uniforms from that lost scouting tradition. Went to a gathering in the San Fernando Valley they held which included Polish, White Russians, Czechs, and two or three other Slavic groups. It was a great experience; and the dedication and focus of the youth surprised me, I have to admit. Do not know if the group still exists since he supposed end of the Cold War.

Got a district/council one. Some pointed questions, and opportunity to expand if you choose to rate below average. Will see if it makes any difference.

Just received the propaganda piece, "America's Answer", that I found on eBay. What a truly amazing piece of scouting history. Not only is it a response to a difficult time in our history, but it exposes you to how BSA was being attacked directly by certain elements, and Scouting being subverted or driven underground in many parts of the world. Are some interesting historical notes regarding this with a Google search. Here is a link should you be interested.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma04/wood/mot/html/neutrality.htm

Scroll down to 1939. Note the photo on the right, #9, which actually shows the item I just purchased.

"If upon review a boy tells me "Sir, I forgot what it stands for, but I taught all the kids in my NSP how to secure the ropes on the trebuchet that launched a nalgene from our patrol site into SM Kudu's tent." Guess who's advancing to the next rank with no further questions?"

No problem here; I agree. Just a formality to encourage more advanced scouts to "be prepared" should the direct question be proffered. The real question should be; Tell us how you might teach a new skill to another scout or individual.

Now I am starting to measure it by my ability to still get out of bed and go down stairs to retrieve the paper. (:-}>

So, what we really have here is a "specific requirement" with a name, EDGE. Does it really mean they must do it exactly as described? From my perspective, NO. As usual, the people making these things up have a good intention; that is to "require" boys learn a viable teaching method and how to apply it. That being said, it seems that is what they should have written, or said. So, use whatever form of teaching that works, but make passing the skill on to the boys part of the advancement. Call it EDGE, or just teaching. Once they have the ability, then make sure they know what EDGE means in case someone gets "technical" with them in a review (though that might be retesting?). Just my take on this whole thing. It is really a non issue.

Still do not know where these large quantities of scouts are that "do not camp". Unless you are insistent that the only real camping is to hike in, then I would say 95%+ troops camp, and 60-70% camp almost monthly, or other similar outdoor day activities. Many do more than one a month; and the "super troops" usually do two or three major high adventure activities as well. If the "scouts do not camp" complainers are referring to cubbing, then they are misplacing their concern. But in our area, cub camping is not uncommon on the family level; and most do day hikes to nature related activities a number of times a year.

Yes, it is possible for a boy scout to squeak by to Eagle without any significant camping experience; but unless the troop is simply ignoring "all" the requirements, even he will have had more than most kids not in the program.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Merlyn;

It continues to amaze me how you can twist anything to fit your point of view and crusade. You appear to miss my point completely. And, as I said, it is my opinion. Has nothing to do with "your" viewpoint; only that "threats" are used as tools to scare groups and government, who have limited funds for such things, into not defending the cases due to cost. Many of the "settled" suits would end up being won if they were to go to the end; but since the loser does not have to pay the defense, it is just too costly and time consuming. I have no hope that you will actually acknowledge my point. And this will be my only response to you regarding it, as even this is really pointless.

Good day.

"(though usually the threat of a lawsuit is enough). "

Ah, here is the bludgeon so popular with the PC groups, especially with government. Also a favorite tactic by questionable lawyers seeking settlements against perceived deep pockets. Why? Because they know it is generally far less expensive to settle than stand up to them.

The need to change the way these suits are handled has been bandied about already. Seems we would be far better off with the litigant responsible for "all" costs, should they lose. And judges need to have the power, reason, and fortitude to throw many of them out to start with.

Again, JMHO.

From my perspective, BSA is on much firmer ground on the spiritual issue, as its removal basically makes BSA just another youth group. The idea that you can allow the small minority of non spiritual people to be members (assuming they are open about their beliefs) is counter to the very foundation of Scouting.

The other other issue is more difficult, as it is something that really should simply not be on the table. That is why I continue to feel the decision should be the CO's, as it is their unit. Those that might allow it would likely remain very small, or simply fade away, in my opinion (again, making the assumption that somehow it is an "avowed" individual). When push comes to shove, no matter what the non involved PC opinions are, when confronted directly, most would quietly find a reason to remove their child from the group, or at least I feel that is the likely outcome. But, similar responses would likely happen with other "avowals" of generally uncomfortable life choices and interactions with those individuals, whether as leaders, or simply direct contact.

But, as we have said, we are not going to solve the issue here. And continuing to rehash it is not particularly useful. At some point, hopefully, the Gay issue will evolve, just as the "Negro" issue did, and other less noted conflicts within the outreach. I fully expect BSA to incorporate fully coed groups sooner than later, but with the choice of all of one gender, or mixed.

These are just opinions and observations from close to 50 years in the program. Others will differ; and that is their right.

Moose;

I suspect that in most councils, the idea that COR's will actually take their job seriously is the SE's biggest nightmare. Sorry to say that, but in rare instances, COR's acting in majority, have been know to force major changes, and even firing of SE"s and other lower professional staff. Of course, most COR's either do not understand they have a vote, or just do not really care. They can be difficult to even locate at times.

End user, the kids, is what would be a great "ideal". An executive board made up of "involved" individuals for the most part, rather than "political" members would go a long way to alleviate many issues I think. Our annual meetings seldom have more than maybe 30% of the total board, past or being seated, at the event. It is obvious who really are the leaders and go to members. Fortunately at the moment, we appear to have people at the top who are actually "involved". But there are a lot of fuzzy concerns that get fuzzy answers in the council. I worry about what may be hiding just beneath the surface; but I only have longevity, not financial or political clout.

We persevere, trying to focus on the kids.

We have their materials and uniforms in our store. Apparently we are one of the few places in Southern California to have them. Store manager says she has sold things to people from as far away as the Bay area. But it seems to be slowly growing based on the interest shown.

"Scouting USA"; now there is a throwback! Who else remembers that from the past?

Seems to me that it was coined at a time when there was a possible merge with Girl Scouts sometime around 1980, give or take a few years.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

"Seriously, do any of you have BS Troops asking their SM's why the Jr. High girls can't come around?"

It has happened on a number of occasions. Recently by an 11 year old (almost 12).

Vicki;

On the other side of the coin are the Koshare Inidans in La Junta, Colorado. If you are not familiar with them, here is a link to them. http://www.kosharehistory.org/index.html The group has been in existence since the 40's, and has worked so hard to develop authentic programs that a number of tribes have honored them directly, and some even given permission for them to do dances that normally would not be acceptable outside the actual tribal customs.

Take a look.

Just came into possession of this patch, which appears to be an

F1(?), from what I can find on the net. Any info on it someone can give me? Know it is from the early 60's, as the other patches are from that period, as are the cards. Thanks.

Guess we need to revisit "Scouting with the Neckerchief". Now that they have the full sized ones again, they can be used for much of what was done once, such as slings and roller bandages. A few years back, National put out a reprint of the booklet, along with a full sized squared neckerchief. Have one in the drawer with my other "stuff". Of course I already had the booklet and older neckerchiefs. Great booklet though.

Not sure your mile swim time would be longer than my most recent ones. (:-}> In 2009 I did my 25th "official" summer camp mile; it was around 1 hour and 20 minutes or so; but I finished it, and never stopped, like some of the younger swimmers did (fudging it from my perspective, by hanging on the edge, or putting feet down briefly in the shallow end), and I was 65 then. Did not do it last year. Best time was under 40 minutes I think in Shaver Lake in 65 degree water. Did a three in the Pacific, two at Emerald Bay, and one at Cherry Valley. Half have been in pools or restricted swimming docks. Will see if I feel like trying it at camp this summer.

We have attended a dozen or more camps over the years I have been an adult leader, and few kids ever completely flunk the test. Some have to go back on occasion. I had one camp where I was seriously concerned about the test's worth, as I watched some kids that simply floundered the whole way, stopping at the shallow end of the pool, yet still getting passed. Yes, I did speak to the staff about the concerns, and hopefully they took my concerns seriously.

But, the biggest problem we have with tests is the tendency of the kids to think it is a race. For good swimmers, that is not an issue; but for the large majority, especially younger boys, it can be difficult. Part of that is that most of our camps are in the mountains above 4,000 feet, while we live on the coast. Also, many of the testing areas are cold, especially those in lakes where temps can be in the 60's. Between the thinner air and the muscle taxing cold, they tire really fast. I try to coach my boys to remember to go slowly, especially when they start out. Of course, most boys "think" they are good swimmers, but unless they swim with their face in the water and know how to breath, they have a ways to go.

The good thing is that they can retest as often as necessary; and for some, that is a goal. But, even non-swimmers can play in restricted areas. I would like to see a separate session scheduled for non-swimmers, and another for beginners, so they might actually leave camp with new confidence and greater skill. But most camps have trouble simply staffing the actual classes in swimming and life saving.

From Beavah's last post.

This rang a bell with me. This statement could easily be applied to much of our own country. And it is heading even closer to this in many segments. "Low, or poor education" is becoming a huge problem through out the country. And much of it is caused by poverty and cliquish attitudes, especially in the urban centers.

And while we might not actually call it tribalism, the trend toward "little this, or little that" neighborhoods, and the huge upsurge in gangs, equate to it more than we might want to admit.

Add to that the fears generated by media about certain religious groups, and the growth of militias and far "either side" groups and rhetoric, and we have major challenges right here "in the U.S. of A.".

I have thought for a while now that there is a certain amount of irony that there is so much paranoia about Al Queda, or similar terrorist groups; and that we need to knock them out "before" they get a foothold here. Yet, we mostly just give lip service to the already rampant terrorism we have here in the form of very violent and cruel gangs throughout the nation, especially in the largest urban area. What is really scary is that they are becoming more common in smaller areas as well. Yet, once more, these areas of police protection are often the first to get the axe in budget fights. If we spent even a quarter of the funds and effort thrown at the out of country fears, we might actually see some results.

But I am old and out of touch. I most likely just do not see the real picture, or understand.

While the coed experience with girls being flirts and boys acting foolish might be an issue sometimes, especially initially in a new program, it would likely only last briefly. Once the group bonds and spends enough time together, most of this would evaporate, and they would likely be mostly like siblings and cousins. Granted, there would be a few exceptions; but for the most part, familiarity would ease the problem. You see that happen in other groups of that age that are coed. Often the girls become more focused, probably trying to prove they can do whatever the boys can; and the boys are a bit less willing to completely look like idiots in front of the girls, or to be seen as less capable.

And, of course, there is still the option of all girl or all boy troops, even though they "could be" coed. Or, you have all one gender or the other in patrols, with dual upper leadership. Lots of options. At some point it is likely to happen.

Why does almost anything posted or presented have so many posters that find the need to be negative about all or part of the subject? Use what you find helpful, and ignore the rest. But lets see if we can start to look for the positives, and quit bashing everything. It is getting simply tiresome. And it is certainly not showing Scout Spirit.

JMHO