skeptic

Is the question about a folded flag, or one on a staff? Makes a difference. Like most things related to the flag, there are traditions, general instructions, and absolutes. This appears to be a tradition to me.

*http://tinyurl.com/4xzce4t*

In 85 the SPL for the jambo troop had MS. He was over 6 foot by then and would be up on his own early, moving to special crutches late morning, and then usually in a chair by afternoon. We never had a shortage of scouts who helped with the chair, including getting him up and down stairs. Granted, a cart or electric chair would have been great, but we got through the whole jamboree with him, though it was a bit of a challenge, especially during "Bob" and his lead-in squall line.

A couple of years before the jambo, Jason's troop went to Chawanakee in the Sierras. He was their SPL at the time. And those scouts never left him alone, nor seemed bothered by helping him around. Pushing a chair in the dirt is not exactly easy; but they were "proud" to be making sure he was part of the group.

Setting the example is something we stress in leadership. So, hopefully most of us see the possible poor one in this scenario.

Thanks to those that responded, reminding me that "embarrassed" is the wrong word. It is also correct that seldom does anyone note the errors if they occur, at least not to my face, or those of the scouts. But, if we are asked, I always point out to the boy in charge that they need to be serious, and perhaps practice some, reminding them that people will be watching. A few times they have opted out, which is fine; and we had a small group years back that chose to learn serious drill maneuvers. They were in demand for a couple of years, until the leader aged out and it fell apart.

My point for doing it for special occasions is just that; it is a special occasion. And doing it right should probably be part of accepting the request. However, part of it depends on age. We should never really expect cubs to do as well as older scouts. But they all should hopefully be encouraged to "do their best".

Now, just doing it for fun, while maybe helping them learn to follow instructions and a leader, definitely should be their choice. And I have always been surprised at how they seem to occasionally enjoy an O'Grady drill, if they have chosen to learn basic stuff.

As said; if they want to learn it better, then help them. Otherwise, simply teach them to be respectful and stand up straight, if possible.

A comment about not marching and drilling was made. Am not sure that there is any harm in basic drilling at times. It is very helpful in many ways. Teaching the scouts to listen to a leader, and to coordinate their movements. Learning to do a sharp set of maneuvers for flag ceremonies. Discipline perhaps. And it can be fun as well. There is something special about a well groomed group marching in good cadence and form. It engenders pride in the marchers too, or at least it did for us when we did it in the 50's.

Frankly, I cringe often when I see scouts doing flag ceremonies in public. We might be better served, image wise, if we did a well executed and sharp ceremony when the mayor's office asks us to do one, or a fraternal organization, or even at our own functions where too often the flag presentation is almost embarrassing. JMHO of course.

"But is being Fat a disability????"

Depends on how good your lawyer is!

Too early to tell; but has possibilities if National takes note and perhaps picks up on the best of things presented.

Learning to float was the critical thing for me. I had been stuck in the beginning YMCA class for half the summer because I was afraid to put my face in the water, and I could not float. Someone coaxed me into trying the cork float, where you curl up in a ball, hold your knees and breath, and bob in the water. For some reason, this worked; and once I knew I would not likely sink, it was onward to fast advancement to Star and Marlin, or something like that. Two years ago I did my 25th official summer camp mile, and I have mastered the float to the extent my feet even come up without kicking.

Overcoming obstacles is part of growing up, especially those that scare us.

Actually, the wolf is a rational choice because of the history of the founders. Seton was called Grey Wolf and is still considered to have done some of the best work on the Canadian wolf. B.P. was the "wolf that never sleeps" among other things. Of course, Seton would have had a wolf rather than an eagle. Probably many other critters someone can validate for the role.

You can likely find numbers of books and so on from the period on eBay. Also they seem to be relatively common in many used bookstores, those that have survived. You can tell them immediately by their putrid green color. You might see if your local council may have a shelf of older books and so on, as well as the annual reports from that period.

If it was not for the copyright issue, I think, Smokey might have filled this niche. You will find him in a number of earlier scouting materials and posters.

Mickey was also an approved rep during the 40's and early 50's; he was an icon for a couple of jambos. There were a few promo items with Ronald McDonald back awhile, aimed at cubs; similar to the Caspar ads for Cubbing. Dennis the Menace was actually used by BSA for a couple of promos as well. Kermit has been a SM or scout, as has Pac-Man. During the 40's and 50's, we had "The Little Scouts". Other recognized comic figures of which I have found either authorized or unauthorized scouting graphics are Woody Woodpecker, Tweety and Sylvester, Taz, Superboy,Roy Powers,Homer Simpson, Franklin Turtle, Flintstones, Goofy, Donald and the nephews, Fox and Crow, BC, Blondie, Archie, Beetle Bailey, "Ha-Ha Comics", Calvin and Hobbs, and Daisy the Cow. There are also the sort of related Bear Scouts, Buttons and the Boy Scouts, and so on. Also are a number of odd ball comic books with which few are familiar, along with numerous off the wall stuff. We have even been featured in Mad, Playboy, and Marvel specials.

Many of the off the wall things I have discovered are hilarious; but others are not something I would want boys to see due to either their "adult content" or simply derogatory material aimed at the BSA or Scouting in general.

Lots already there, or you might have a contest to find a totally unique and specific symbol or mascot.

Hey, they do a fine job at Burbank. I lost my beard trimming scissors before the change in that element; and recently, they had no problem taking my 4 ounce tube (half full) of fungal salve when we went to Vegas.

Last summer I felt bad for a jambo SM who had two boys forget to put something in checked bags, one was a pocket knife I think that was in his pocket, one of the extra small ones so popular in current scout shorts. They had these kids with 3 agents, as well as the SM. They were still there 20 minutes later when I left the area. Once determined it was a simple mistake, you would think it would have been solved.

"Common sense", I yearn for your return.

Overall, a good segment. Definitely a positive shot for Scouting. Was great that they did not edit out the "boy" humor when it occurred, such as the baked potato covered with mud. That is exactly the way kids of that age (and adults with twisted adolescent thinking)act and speak.

What did not make much sense to me was the uniforming. Reality is that they would not have been doing wilderness survival in a full "class A" uniform with necker and slide. But, it did add to the P.R. element of the segment, showing the uniform identities of Boy Scouts and Venturers.

Next we can hope National might find a way to get broader distribution of the Outdoor Channel program somehow. Also, a T.V. Mike Rowe Scouting segment would be a huge boon. One can dream.

So, this shows that those least likely to afford it pay very little; but those most able pay the least. The major hit is by those of us that are in the second quartile, more or less. Very few of our "representatives" fall into that level; they are mostly in the top quartile, so of course pay less percentage. And we wonder why they side with the rich; most of them are the rich.

So, now the Republican negotiator bows out (probably a better term could be found), of the budget talks because the other side continues to insist that income has to be part of the solution, either taxes or closing of loopholes that favor a tiny proportion of society (those who have the Republicans in their pockets). Compromise; finding a middle ground, or giving something to get something.

What confuses me is that I cannot find many "regular people" who have a problem with stopping the tax breaks for the rich, or closing their loopholes so that they actually pay for their profits. It would be interesting to see a completely unbiased, balanced survey of maybe 2% of the on the street citizens regarding how they really feel about the Republican refusal to even consider income and higher taxes on those feeling the least pain. I suspect that not only would they smack the Republicans down on that idea, but they also would have some pretty harsh words for the Democrats too regarding other issues. The reality is that the general public has zero confidence in either side. But our so called elected "representatives" hardly ever actually care about those they supposedly serve.

When the oil companies start actually spending profits in long term projects to improve their business, such as new refineries, and the financial wizards of the large institutions start actually giving loans without impossible barriers to overcome, and all of the corporate big shots give back some of their inflated compensation,then maybe we (the 97% or so of the common people)will have some hope.

Right now, I personally would like to chuck them all. That said, what we might get is even a scarier proposition.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Engineer:

Hopefully you do not consider the FS using the camp as a base to be a negative. A few years ago, the Day Fire here in SCal was in our camp's vicinity, even threatened it briefly. They used the reservoir for helicopter water pickups, and set up one of two base camps (the other was in the city at the fairgrounds)at 3-Falls. While it may have been a bit hard on the few scouts that could not camp during that period, it was a huge PR positive. We are still getting the benefit of that, after several years. Service, including the use of our facilities, is part and parcel of the Scouting experience.

Yep, I understand completely E. Over the years I have had a few PLC's that actually functioned close to the ideal, but rarely. In the past though, most did a moderately good job with enough prodding. I am a bit alarmed at the more recent groups though, as they appear to almost "be afraid" to actually make suggestions or decisions. It seems a reflection of the overprotective society that has arisen, along with the idea that somehow making mistakes is not acceptable. Of course, we all know that learning is built very often on understanding the mistakes we make.

Part of this can be seen in the changes in National policies that have taken many of the original PLC responsibilities away, or modified them to a point of having little significance for growth. One example is the BOR, once done by the PLC with an adult observer. This was not only an efficient process, but a huge element of leadership growth. This included an occasional disciplinary review to deal with troublesome scouts. We adult leaders, as monitors, seldom had to step in except to possibly make small modifications; but they were generally very fair, and much more acceptable to the scouts. And, overall scout participation in "their" program, and reactions to "their" discipline was good.

But this has been discussed ad finitum. It would be great if we might go back a bit and re-implement some of the basic things that let them actually make them grow without too much interference, other than for real safety.

A mention was made last night at roundtable that Lion was going to be reborn in some manner. Does anyone know anything about this, or is it just another rumor?

Hawkrod; Is that camp held at Emerson or Helendade; or perhaps now at the Big Bear camp? You mentioned fire damage, so thought it might be Helendade. Did you see the three graphics I posted on the Inland Empire Facebook?

So, where ever they seem to get the idea, the decision has been made that the scout candidate "should not" distribute reference letters, that this should be the review board's responsibility. Additionally, supposedly this is because they want it to be the same throughout the council; yet every volunteer to whom I have talked does not understand the decision either. Had a board earlier this week, and we all talked about this. Our district AC has put the reference letters back on the troop committee; but that is not what the SSE in charge says should happen.

The real shame is that once again someone has felt that the candidate should not have the responsibility put on them, even though National actually states it is okay. They keep talking about adding to the requirements because it is not on the actual app with the list of references. Just makes no sense to almost all of us.

So, will be interesting to see if we have a huge drop off in letters, especially in districts that try to do it within the AC, rather than ours, with its putting it back on the troop.

Still do not know what made this become such an issue in the first place, unless some parent complained, so this is the knee jerk reaction. Either that, or the council office simply does not want to deal with the letters in any way.

Taking a deep breath. We do this for the boys! Deep breath.

While the museum is definitely worth the visit, it has many opportunities not really being met, in my opinion. And as far as historical research goes, it is nearly impossible to really get access. I finally gave up, as I simply do not have the right connections to get past the barriers. I would dearly love being able to research my area's pre-council records prior to 1921 when we were chartered. Local records indicate hundreds of scouts from 1910 on, but very little is known about the units, as they were all at large charters, the records of which are hopefully in a file someplace. I say hopefully, because sometimes short sighted people toss old stuff that seems of little importance to them. The biggest thing I would hope to find would be one or two Eagles from prior to our council founding, as there were a substantial number in the first decade, which would indicate a strong possibility of a few earlier.

Oh well. Just keep working on what is available locally through newspaper research and the local museums.

Ours this year is supposed to try and only focus on traditional scout skills, while leaving stuff you can do indoors alone. That is a better approach I think. They noted precamp that they are going to try and have boys do a dinner for second class; it would take the place of that evening's dining hall meal. We do not have in camp cooking, as the fire danger is usually too high and so no open fires or charcoal are allowed; though using camp stoves can be done with proper arrangements.

I have had a pen friend in England since 1965, and was fortunate to visit her family and her in 1967 while stationed in Germany with the AF. We have kept in touch all these years, and recently visited here in California. She is still in awe of the distances we take as common everyday drives. As Cambridgeskip noted, they simply really do not equate.

Back in 1976 Sue's husband, a member of the elite British Parachute team, came to Yuma, Arizona for winter training. While there, they arranged a trip to Disneyland for them. He called me and wanted to know if I was close to Disneyland, as Sue had told him to contact me if at all possible. I lived in the San Fernando Valley at the time, about 75 miles from the park. So, I arranged to meet him at the hotel and take him to my apartment in the Valley for supper and a visit. On our way to my place, he commented that we must be near the Oregon border, as he had ridden roughly 500 miles north already. He just was floored when I told him it was not but a third of the way there. He also could not quite yet grasp the variations in topography; they drove on Interstate 10 from Yuma through the below sea level area of Salton Sea, through the San Gorgonio pass with 11,400 foot San Gorgonio on one side and 10,800 foot San Jacinto on the other, into the cities.

We often do not realize just how blessed we are in regard to diversity of landforms and cultural exposures. Nothing I saw in Europe, in relation to physical geography, was particularly unusual, even though I was in Bavaria and visited the Alps. But, the cultural exposures were eye opening, with the depth of history so easily accessible.

We have had a number of international trips from our council in the past, outside of jambo; but none recently. The last one was to Discovery in Great Britain to which I had a scout go. But there were only ten total, including the adults.

Interesting discussion.

Oh come now; we should expect a scout to actually pay attention and figure something out for himself? It is clearly too difficult to understand, as it says to submit proof; and it does not say how to do that. So, it is the fault of the instructor, camp and program director, his SM, his parents, and anybody else that has to hold his hand and make sure he understands.

According to the Museum Facebook link, they had one, but it has been rotated out. They have not yet indicated if we might see another one later, but they admit having recently removed one.

Thought I had seen something there when I last visited a few years back. We will see.