skeptic

Yep; lots of selfish and greedy people.  Meanwhile, back in the trenches we struggle on to live the Twelve and carry on the Spirit as designed.  

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• The Mirror of Society: Because scouting, schooling, and youth sports draw directly from the broader public, they inevitably inherit the baseline pathology of the surrounding population. [1]
• The Illusion of Absolute Security: Implementing rules can sometimes create a false sense of security among parents and guardians, leading them to delegate their natural oversight responsibilities to the institution, assuming the "system" is handling the risk entirely. [1]

On 6/20/2026 at 5:22 AM, qwazse said:

Lol, I “paid” for camp in the sense that Mom would let me know precisely how it (and everything else I did) costed if I wasn’t handing over cash outright for it. Still got partials. Parents never questioned it. At CoH’s, they were outright surprised if I earned anything. Dad was on the committee so he surely knew, but never mentioned it. My advancement or lack thereof was my business. (Same for my buddy who aged out at 2nd Class.)

I guess when I did anything besides veg out on a Saturday morning, they called it a win.

Sales for fundraisers, on the other hand, they did their darndest to line me up leads (and make and sling product). And I caught it if I didn’t match their effort.

I try to remind parents about this, and at the same time support them if they are worried about their scout not knowing how to advance. I think a little coaching on fighting distractions is important in a postmodern nomad generation.

That reminds me of my efforts, or lack there of, trying to hock Christmas Cards to wind an official hand axe and sheath knife combo as a prize.  I somehow got some orders, but soon apparently gave up.  Yet I got the prize anyway because my parents just bought the surplus, maybe to get the dun letters to go away, and they sent a lot of those cards for the next few years.  Likely similar things can be noted by many others here.  I had that set hanging about for years, and think I still have the hatchet with a ruined sheath.  Knife, I have no idea.  That was the fifties.  

While we cannot generally return to the past without considerable adjustment, this may be one place where bringing our short lived Rover program back might be smart.  During its short life, it kept many of the "betweeners" involved.  Just a thought.  Rovers, in various formats thrive in the larger world.  

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Most all you all did not look like this (at the time) young Syrian, and I joined and stayed.

This speaks to the identity game that National thinks minority parents are playing. Maybe some are, but if so they ain’t joining on account of some kids matching face on a poster.

I’m looking forward to see what grandson #1 decides this year.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Most all you all did not look like this (at the time) young Syrian, and I joined and stayed.

This speaks to the identity game that National thinks minority parents are playing. Maybe some are, but if so they ain’t joining on account of some kids matching face on a poster.

I’m looking forward to see what grandson #1 decides this year.

Glad to see you say what GS wiill decide.  Ultimately they should "want" to work the program and as BP said, have fun.  

Ultimately, Scouting must evolve with the rest of society, but the way to do it and stay faithful to the foundation is the larger challenge.  I have no specific answer, other than still viewing the major foundational supports of Scout Spirit as critical.  Kind of like the the "Golden Rule"; it really is fairly simple.  But we tend to make it less so too often.

37 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

This seemed like a (mostly) thoughtful take.

Aside from stating the obvious (lawsuits and recent membership changes have adversely impacted participation), he honed in on 2 other factors:

1. Civic engagement (Elks Club, Optimists, etc.) and church attendance has decreased in the US. These organizations have been major sponsors of the BSA and their parallel decline has resulted in less support for Scouting.

2. Society's definition of masculinity has widened. Fewer young men are expected to hunt, farm, fix cars, or join the military. Scouting was once viewed as an age-appropriate way to introduce self-reliance to boys. Today, those hard skills are less important in the information economy.

I especially appreciate the second point. I doubt I'd meet the standard of 1970s masculinity. I'm not handy. I maintain my home to the minimum standard and hire help the second I get in over my head. However, I do make a decent living. Plus, we live in a safe neighborhood and are on track for retirement. My son also has everything he needs, including most of my attention outside of work. By the 2020s standards of masculinity, I'm probably doing just fine.

Just now, skeptic said:

Change the word "Boys" to "Adults", and we are onto something.

38 minutes ago, Tron said:

I think quality volunteers is in decline. We're seeing this right now. After 60 days of reminders we now have hundreds of volunteers in every council running around with expired youth protection training because they are of such low quality that they couldnt do free training with up to 60 days of reminder notice.

The larger issue may well be that those "quality" people are discouraged at every turn.  I can only speak locally, but more and more are just thowing in the towel because of foolish and non responsive local council people, many who have no idea about the program as it was framed.  A really sad example; this past week a Council individual involved in eradicating some of those pesky actuall Scouting people, cleaning up a space, came across a stash of poles and staves.  He tried to throw them out as trash wood.  When he was challenged he had no idea they were kept to use for lashing and pioneering practice.  Tossing old patrol flags because nobody cares.  Suggesting uniform closet is a waste of time, and they can "buy" a uniform.  Surely most here can add many similar disconnects.  Will maybe discover what my status is this evening when the take over squad meets in our location to straighten it all out.🫥🤔😡

As we again are looking at our over a century old troop folding due to the many issues with program and leadership for a broad enough program, I reviewed the concept noted.  I could see that it would be viable in some ways, but finding a way to keep the separate units' tenure could be a challenge.  On the other hand, it might be viable with some tweaks to fit the histories and such, but cooperative programs.  

Does anyone know of something like this happening?  How do you work with the historical elements?  I find myself recollecting that in the thirties we had a Sea Scout Patrol that was chartered separately, but was still part of our larger unit.  We had a troop charter and a secnd "Patrol" charter for the crew.  That seems a logical concept now.  thanks for reviewing this.  

The largest issue that continues is the apparent inability to note that selling camps that leave a council without local options does not make sense.  And continuing to treat volunteers as ignorant or lacking in ability is not the way to go.  For me, also, not putting the important elements of local historical data and material  into local perspective is NOT wise.  It is that very history and longevity that is most important to bring the program out of its darkness.  I keep coming back to the elderly woman that spoke to me at a local Memorial Day event where my unit was serving.  She said she was o glad to see the scouts there; she thought they were gone.  That is a very telling comment.  I can only hope that somehow we might get the shift in focus to service and positive public images, and away from obvious dollar promotions.  Sadly, I fear I may not live to see that again, though I say I will be my family's first centenarian, I am not foolish enough to discount that as a long shot.  And I already cannot do things I once did, and I miss meetings due to old man syndromes and night driving concerns.  One day at a time, and pass what I can on.  

https://onscouting.org/2026/05/20/qa-with-scouting-america-national-chair-ricky-mason/

The tone is promising, but my confidence in its viability is thin.  Take a look.  He says some of the right words, but is there any weight in them?

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly it is easier to keep up with social media postings on topics than do the above. Heck I have found out things before the pros find out. And I have been asked by my council to take down my reposts of national announcements because they ant to put their spin on it.

 

I suspect a few of my posts on District pages have been wiped, as the council has the office as a moderator on them.  But, I generally share stuff I get from the National groups, like Commissioners, and especially On Scouting.  I find many are not aware of this, and local council often  does not pass stuff along.  Their newsletters are always months out of date.  IF it came from a National source, I feel it should be okay to share it.  Tough if they do not want your to.  

On 11/12/2018 at 8:49 AM, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

I follow the BSA guidelines and hold my hand over my heart if I'm out of uniform. As a veteran I could hand salute, but if I'm around scouts I follow the guideline. 

As a Marine, I find some scout flag ceremonies to be confusing. At summer camp one year we were asked to remove our head gear, outside, to salute the flag. I dunno. Mot scouts still recite the Pledge of Allegiance wrong. it's "One Nation Under God" not 'One Nation (pause) under God." It's peeve of mine. About indoor ceremonies... scouts pivoting as the flag goes by from the rear of an auditorium to the front is odd.

As a Vet, I use the military salute while in a Scout uniform, as I was encouraged to do when it was officially approved.  I still put my hand over my heart when not in uniform, however, though I have noted apparently it is now authorized even without a uniform.  While prouch that I served, it is not the center of my existence, and I still feel a bit uncomfortable with the rote "thank you for your service".  I suppose the fact I joined the AF during the rush to draft in the sixties shows I went willingly, though I sometimes think it was a form of doging the Army or Marines at the time.  Still, I have credit for four active years and two reserve, and the VA is modhelpful with the local clinics, though the paperwork and computer access is tedious and now often annoying, trying patience.  

Another related thing is proper marching or drill movements.  I used to occasionally show the youth  proper turning for drill and marching.  But, I stopped when some parents felt it was not appropriate.  But a sharp color guard is still important, and if the event has them doing flags, I try to get them squared away and even in step.  

Chipmunks???  Another expense for registrations?  

https://onscouting.org/2026/05/11/parents-and-scouters-get-ready-for-chipmunks/

It is interesting that the original question I posed had to do with why the media picked up story that basically represents someone outside of scouting doing a good deed, and treated it as special. Meanwhile we have the Slogan that we in theory expect our youth to consider doing, but we seldom discuss the subject.  A while back I stepped in early in the meeting and posed the query to the group, asking them to describe how they may have met that concept of the Slogan.  The discussion morphed into a real interactive thing.  We talked about a good deed, and what it meant.  We talked about how large an effect it might have and whether simply holding a door, for example was a good deed, and that counted.  They should not consider themselves a failure in regard to the Slogan if it was not extraordinary.  It eventually morphed into also talking about how the Motto interacted with the Slogan, and touched on the Law.  

The larger question that now comes to me is how often do we bypass these kinds of opportunities?  Do we so focus on getting the "plan" for the meeting accomplished that we lose opportunities?  Maybe we need to not be so fixated on some things, but instead listen for these opportunities and explore with our youth.  I just read a FB piece about how we, as adults and too often educators, neuter the curiosity of our youth for various reasons.  It discussed at what age the kids stop asking why, and how it is related to our NOT taking the time to find out if we do not, ourselves, know.  How, if we change direction and explore it with them, that it may have a much larger impact on them, but we also open ourselves again to curiosity.  The article was really leading up to an encyclopedic book on what are the most common "why or what" questions of young kids.  But, while it was come on for the book, it also did open my eyes a bit more, even at my age.  

We may need to step back a bit and reevaluate our approaches, not just in Scouting, but in general.  I am 82, and I just realized that I have actually learned something about the larger world, and also have gotten a different perspective on why we may do what we do.  

When our council started adding a "fee" for these types of things a majority of our leaders sound off negatively.  After poor attendance due to the fee stuff, partly due to units refusing to particpate, they revised the program.  They now find sponsors for costs and no scout is charged.  Guess what, attendance grew dramatically.  The next step then was a group meting of leaders where our concerns were hear, mostly not prepping the prerequisites and working on unit communications.  I personally stopped doing counseling for the events, and I told them why, though part was just my age and related issues, it was also getting few follow ups from the partials.  Those that came prepared, also tended to follow up and arrange a meeting to finish.  And that is how I feel it should shake out.  I should note that I did have a few parents and a leader or two that were upset I did not sign the blue cards automatically.  But, I also had a couple that were glad I did not.  

https://www.aol.com/lifestyle/teen-helps-elderly-woman-cross-203010206.html

Not sure why this seems to have gone viral.  I could not help but think of the long running joke about the Scout helping old ladies across the street.  But, my point is simply this is part and parcel an example of what our society seems to have lost, and the fact that Scouting has this as a brick in its foundation.  

7 hours ago, Tron said:

Specifically what adjustments would you make?

Work at finding liaisons with other youth groups, including maybe church groups and such.  Put together a cooperative or two with local outdoor and sporting stores that run programs for climbing and so on.  If feasible, work with local professional groups to use the site for spot training opportunities.  Make serious cooperative out reach to local colleges and schools to develop teaching sites at the camp.  All things that could be workable, or so it seems to me.  Setting rates would need to be fair, and not made to maximize any profit  The main thing would be to simply keep trying new ideas and finding cooperative options Corporate weekends might be offered where they could use the sites for company gatherings.  The goal woould be to make the property viable, but also to have the community see it as an option.   Working with unions might be viable, both in the city and at camp facilities.  Union does training at the camp and the camp gets things fixed professionally.  Be creative, and if it does not pan out, try other things.  Some camps may have the type of location to grow Christmas trees, so that becomes part of the prograam and support.  If the camps have unique locations with interesing geograpy, or in our case a fscsimile fort, offer it for movie sets; maybe even incorporate it as part of the MB program to do that.  Keep that "can't" at bay.  

"As a business the camp is a sunk cost that councils have to pay to maintain and monitor 365. "  And here is where some relatively easy adjustments could make huge differences.  Weak, or political proxies on a Council BOD is useless.  A SE or as seems not the name local CEO, who has little or no concern for the actual membership is a waste of expense and also of time.   Scouting has always, in theory been a Community based organization, as its history shows, and it early connection with the YMCA, etal proves.  As many training courses, local, and at PTC have suggested; you will get little help from others if you do not ask.  But asking just for money is likely a poor method.  Community respect, visible viability of local units, and yes, in this case, making real outreach to the broader community to "share" the facilities often donated in early days by people that cared.  People mostly still care, especially those that recognize the sad media focus on negative, and find ways to show otherwise, or that it is being worked on for a better way, and a safer way; one that can be a model outside the Scouting families.  

On 4/17/2026 at 3:48 PM, Jameson76 said:

You don't mean that spending almost $1,000,000,000 (yes BILLION) dollars on a property / facility that really has no purpose, did not meet an unfilled need, and has no road to profitability may have a negative impact on the organization that dumped all that money into it??  I am shocked.

While the expense issue may have feet, it is not totally accurate.  The facility has proven useful and viable over more recent times.  Will it recoup its cost; that is up to those who can think outside the boxes.  Most camps, once outfitted with basic needs, can be used for many things besides camping or special programs.  And there seems no reason, other than attitude or bias to somehow not offer the space and facilities to outside groups, both as ways to offset expenses, but also as effective utilization of facilities and structures.  It might take a while, but it can and should reach a balance.  The same thing seems common to many council camps that have fallen or barely hanging on.  The local council has upkeep issues, especially as the facility gets older.  But, while the have, for example, say a high level climbing wall, it is standing unused more often than used.  Iff a program of cooperative use with local climbing groups and maybe even schools were to be developed, it could becaome a viable resource and improve all parties programs.  A camp has kitchen and dining hall that is used during Council activities, but often sits unused.  Could a local area cooking school perhaps use it for training in the off-season?  Could that same school fill a summer need as well that is often a real struggle?  The camp is located relatively near seasonal outdoor opportunities; could it be rented out when not used by the council, allowing more people to experience the winter sports and so on?

We come back to the missed opportunity position far too often.  Would the ideas work; probably with proper planning and follow.  But someone says "can't", or we do not have the sources, or other excuses, so the facility ages and disappears.  Not only is this ignorance, but it is lost opportunity.  Some camps also could be used by the FS for training locations, though currently our misguided (my opinion) leadership is doing all it can to decimate the FS and Parks.  Our now lost camp a decade or two back became a six week + basecamp for a major wildfire fight.  They took over the whole facility and it proved viable and also put our camp and council in a good light.  FS for a long time came as part of the Fire Safety skills program in the summer, bringing trucks and tools to share and demonstrate.  But could the site have also been an option regularly for training how to fight the fires, even for non Scouting people?  

So many times "Can't" is the answer, and nobody challenges that.  Our lost camp was built by local groups who felt the Scouting program needed the

I find it interesting that we are seeing basically an updated version of the first moon program.  And the same lines of interest amazingly reappear with the youth.  HMMM.  Could we, as a society, maybe keep the strongest building blocks and share their evolutionary options as bait for the youth?  While I have concerns about the worst of the video game intrusions on some, I also see what appears to be serious parallels to the huge science charge the first decade of the space race.  No good science is wasted, and often reintroductions of some concepts may lead to unique new concepts and developments.  That after all is what comes from the challenges, some of which may stem from the scary video game concerns.  How many of the current day "normal" things were seen in fiction and earlier science probes?  When was the last time someone made a list of how many now basic tools and concepts came from the Race to the Moon?  Not only Tang.  Think about how much easier outdoor activities are with the developments that reach back to the prep for the moon.  How many new materials are mainstream in tents, packs, navigation, and so on?  Young people are often ignored with their idea, yet once in a while those same youth make amazing things, on their own, like the young woman that developed the way to separate micro plastic from the water.  

You cannot take Scouting out of the larger community or its issues.  You can fliter that community through the tenets of Scouting to make the community hopefully better.  YP or whatever the current name is, represents a positive feedback into those larger communities, and the concepts continue to evolve and get stronger, which in turn helps both the program, and those it serves.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Yep, we’ve been talking about this statistic for a long time. The largest group of dropouts in the scouting program are first year troop scouts. And, it’s been that way since National has kept those kinds of records since the 60s.

There is a cultural shock going from being hand held through the first 10 years of life by adults to spending the night in the dark woods with only youth leaders for protection from the sounds of darkness in a tent.

its not an easy problem to solve. Our troop work a number years and different approaches to our program to fix it.

We learned that scouts who hang around after their first summer in the troop, will likely age out in their program.

We were a patrol method, mixed age program heavy on outdoors. We found scouts needed an adult nearby the first few months of their experience to learn how to trust the youth leaders. But, the youth leaders have to be the responsible one-on-one leaders of the new scouts or they likely will not develop that trust for the youth leaders. At least not in the first few months.

Its is a delicate situation that requires creativity, courage and persistence from both the scouts and adults working together to get over the hurdle of getting new scouts past their first summer camp.

Barry

 

Three words that maake a huge difference.  "balance", "awareness", and "responsiveness".  And these concepts actually relate to youth moving from group levels anywhere.  And let them fail, as long as it is safe and then pick them up to try again.  All of this of course needs adults to "adult".

And if that person became the character on Ghosts it would still be the fault of Scouting America,etal.  At least in this country.  

What if's are the worst problem, as we now live in a society that makes them more important than they should be and there is a legal vulture just waiting.  But, we also seem afraid to just be normal and use commn sense within the given framework.  No answer to most of it due to our specific "blame" society.