skeptic

2 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

This is coming after they are putting a ton of work into Camp Pupukea on Oahu.

New Cabin Designs Unveiled for Camp Pupukea - Hawaii Parent

Fairly common; the rank and file most often have no clue, as those running the back play are not overly communicative to the peons.  Still waiting for the announcement of our last camp which is supposedly in escrow, though no info is available for some reason.  As some may remember, they sold our primary camp with no warning already.  So we no longer have viable council camp property.

We always saw and heard amusement with the "Kings (important) Papers.  Again, no longer deemed "appropriate".  

Not sure it has anything to do with the Covid interruptions.  Did they have to have any skits approved first?  The newest attitude on such things is, from my recent experience, one of overly zealous concern with something maybe hurting feelings or hinting at stuff once just part of normal life interactions.  Especially NO possible inuendo or suggestion of body functions, animal or human.  In some instances we no longer are supposed to sing the old Region Twelve song, for example, as one of the early versions, and the ones most of us recollect has nakedness suggested.  The old standby trainge elephant skit is not acceptible, nor the dumb two scouts arguing about belts, but not noting that is the topic, noting length.  The JCPenney skit is no longer generlly allowed, nor the one with fish(suckers) hanging on a line.  The really sad thing is that they are exposed to far worse daily on TV and in public where the four letter word is now so common few even notice.  And TV programs often have so many beeps in them that it is simply tiresome.  Just my thoughts, but I am of the lost generation when we still were innocents and still were neighborhood families.  

Not sure what the issue might be, other than surprise to you.  IF she is properly vetted there should not be a problem, especially if she was not necessary as leadership for your unit at the event.  

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Being told that I have to believe in the Christian god, or at least be a monotheist, because of the legacy phrasing of the spiritual duty Scouting America uses.

The Law I have made the Promise to do my best to follow many times as a youth starts "A scout seeks their own beliefs and respects that of others." I have to do no such thing (be a monotheist), thank you very much, and you don't get to tell me what my spiritual beliefs are.

Not sure what you are saying.  It specifically states "respect others' beliefs" and does not mention anything about monotheism or otherwise.  Pretty broad and subjective it seems to me.  But, whatever floats your boat, as some say.  

It is often expected to identify if you are part of the group.  At many COH's they even have all the Eagles gather around in some manner.  For years at our Eagle recognition gatherings they would do some type of "who is the earliest Eagle here" type of thing.  But, bragadocio is misplaced too often and can be annoying.  But, Kind is one of the points of the Law.  So, smile and go with the flow.  I have learned after decades that it is not worth the sour stomach to let it bother me.  

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Our successes are almost all unit based, and seldom noted by Council, unless they find issue a way to monetize that success.

Fixed it for you

 

Well; youo certainly hit the nail squarely.  As one of our leaders growled last week when I mentioned the apparent sale of our only remaining camp; "If it means money, they do not care how it affects the units."

There is a certain irony that National grew from the need to respond to the trenches where Scouting struggled to survive, but was locally vibrant for the times.  And now, when we are back to struggles in similar chasms, they seem to be unaware of reality too often.  Our local council seems too often to simply not get that most volunteers simply want to be kept in the loop.  Our successes are almost all unit based, and seldom noted by Council, unless they find issue.

I can relate to that to some extent.  One way to combat the repetitiveness is after the recitation, ask for an example or two from the group of a particular point.  Or discuss briefly the intent of the Law, including that it is not 12 laws, but one Law with 12 points.  I also like to contrast it at times with the Ten Commandments in regard to the phrasing.  The commandments say "Thous Shalt Not", while the Law says it is a given taht a Scout is    .  

Just reinforces the concept of how this, along with many similar type of cases takes advantage of people.  Another reason to completely overhaul our legal systems.  Or so it seems anyway.  

Understand that none of the past uniform designs is ever disallowed.  Current patches can be added in place of old ones, though really old styles can be difficult.  But frankly, when the effort is made, they look really cool, and the youth tend to like them.  

National should partner with all of the thrift store chains, and other similar stores to have Uniform options for all scouts and even leaders.  We have a uniform closet in our church that helps our members, and we share it with other units if they ask.  Many of our members are vintage to start, and many stay that way.  Before we lost our camp, we always took a box of service caps and a few Smokey hats with us for flag gatherings.  Now we use them for occasional local events.

Logging on issues??  Keeps saying they cannot find the site, or eventually does come up but then drags.  Any thoughts or help?  Using Windows 11 and Chrome, but also happens with other brousers.  

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

At least in my district we did not lose units due the Methodist pull out, they all (5) found other charter organizations to pick them up.  Also, while I cannot speak for all districts or councils but in this area the Methodist Church did not pay for membership.  My own unit was one of those who had to find a new C.O. and while we were at the Methodist Church, we only had one member who was also a member of that church.

From what I have dug up, our unit always paid its own way, though it was often enhanced by people within the larger Church Family who donated generously.  And, while we may soon get out from the "Council" in theory, CO shadow, the use agreement is solid.  Here is a just posted on FB Church link, for example.  

The Scouts have always helped the church when we needed them. It is now our turn to help the scouts. What perfect way to say thank you, and we are glad you are here.

If you have some extra time and would like to help, the Church Office has a list of chores that can be done at any time. Give Kathleen a call or email because many hands make light work.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

The Methodist thing hit hard here; but it was odd. We had a lot of Methodist units, but a lot of the unit membership was not Methodist. So when the Methodist thing with the charters disrupted scouting, we lost a lot of units in my area, but the scouts were not Methodist so it never made much sense on why other non Methodist chartered units didn't pick those scouts back up? Was the Methodist church paying a lot of membership dues like the LDS was? 

I use to live next to a Methodist church and they were HUGE, I mean, at least 1000 active churchgoing members. They are tiny now, they had to sell their church and downsize to an old smaller church on the other side of town. I spoke with the pastor and she said they have like 100 parishioners left. It happened almost suddenly, I want to say that within a decade they went from being the largest Christian congregation in my area to the smallest and no one has a single idea why, nothing bad has ever been said about the pastor or church board. It's weird. 

The lack of commissioners is bad. I think my district is down to 3, the district committee is doing this at risk thing as well. The problem is no real solid definition of an at risk unit. I went to a roundtable (might have been a scouting u class) about these new metrics and the council commissioner was adamant that these metrics are not for evaluating a unit, they are for "finding discussion topics".  Are we experiencing our scouting version of purple math don't test the kids moment? 

Basically, from my area info, there was/is an ongoing rift in the larger denomination related to the Acronym issues.  World wide, the scism is huge, again related to the social changes.  But it is really most of the oldline protestant denominations that have suffered due to changing community views and fewer churched families.  The concept of families attending church together has fallen away, partly due to the societal changes, but frankly also due to many families having struggles just to keep themselves going, and the Church often did not respond well.  Still, spirituality is often apparently seen as personal, and the dictates of old line denominations that could not respond affected responses.  Somehow our congregations continue to serve the community and while now very small, are functioning and adjusting.  But the community resouce the church is makes it a survivor.  We are not likely to ever see the pattern of the last century.  

At least inn our neck of the woods, So Cal, I still see a lot of confusion with our longest lasting units that tend toward starting with Methodists.  The "workaround?" that in theory protects the Church from direct legal problems is confusing and in some areas still, apparently seen as a line in the sand.  We are fortunate that our particular small (once very large) congregation loves the units we have in the basement and comes out in force when we have fundraising events.  We also help as possible with many things within the church, but it is also struggling, as are most mainline Protestant churches, to maintain.  We have three small congregations with two pastors serving them in the area.  One location, while still in the district and area, is being slowly redeveloped in hand with local efforts for the homeless and similar issues.  An affordable housing project is currently in process on what was once a large parking lot for the defunct church.  But, its main buildings are still serving the community through the conglomerate maintained.  We still seem to have at least three, maybe four Methodist-affiliated unit families in the council, but pinning it down is hard, as the charter is fuzzy, at best.  

Guess I have heard "mansplaining" before, but it struck me this time and made me smile.  I suppose there is a related term, "womansplaining", though not sure that is possible.  😃

Cooperative uses of propeties by youth serving groups, and family serving entities should be a no brainer.  Looking at the history of BSA, it is hard to imaging what may have evolved WITHOUT the YMCA and the involvement of community groups.  We now have NO camps, yet the GS camp sits empty much of the year, and they choose to NOT make it easily used by Scouting America.  It seems logical to me, but what do I know, that all of these groups should be designing cooperative involvements, not just for camping on owned properties that are still viable, but also for programming.  The often over used "it takes a family" seems to fit here.  Early towns survived by cooperative methods.  While religions have slipped to the background in modern society, the silent familial opportunities still fill a huge hole in betterment of society.  Another otion might be for the large corporated outdoor and sports corporations enter into the saving of camps still there, but slipping, and develop coordinated events with updated facilities, open not ALL youth serving groups, perhaps on the traditional Summer Camp model, but also in special camps to support the environment and to introduce the trades and so on.  So many options that go untried for whatever excuse, while billions of dollars are wasted on foolishness and destruction of our world.  

While that surely was part of the issue, it also was a time when lawsuits for slander were far more common and likely to be won.  We can discuss or beat it to death; it was NOT today.  Societal norms have changed, but even now there is considerable fear of slander, even with the more liberal responses from the courts.  There is more than enough blame to go around, both in the past BSA actions, or lack of, but also in the fact that many authorities were unwilling to follow up, and even many families did not want stuff out in the public.  As has been noted more than once, none of the survivors or victims are ever going to be made whole, and we can only work to try to do better and follow the newer standards, in SA, as well as perhaps in the larger society.  The horse is well whipped, but the crop needs to be at hand just in case.  As I have said before, I have no solution other than to pray for a modicum of peace for those that need it, and for somehow society to take the needed responsibility more often than not.  We cannot change the past nor cure it, but only move forward with better choices and reactions.  

5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I would like to add that the survivor/victims also call these files the "Perversion Files" and the reason being is these are the files that contain the name of the perverts who were part of the BSA who committed perverted acts upon us. Naming them "Ineligible Volunteer Files" is like putting lipstick on a pig and calling the pig a lady.

Youth Protection should never be ignored or taken lightly, and I am glad you pointed that out. The ramification to victims is so devastating that even one incident is one too many.

While I can understand your perspective on the use of the "perversion files", I feel that is not constructive to "fixing" things.  The IV files were more than mos groups or organizations attempted, and even with this additional untenable episode, YP is still better than most other groups and I have read is a guide for others that finally choose to do something.  Most of the people in the IV files were not deviants, or so it appears.  The sad fact is that we have sick people in the larger society that are always trying to get around any protections and prey on the weak and less mature.  And we still have far too many government agencies that are worse, in some respects, than the predators, since they take payoffs or whatever or simply do not want to make the efforts for some reason.  So, we that continue towork at it must be vigilant and pray that we keep most of them out and away.  Zero tolerance is wonderful, but it also will NOT stop a few sick people.  

On 9/6/2016 at 7:36 AM, perdidochas said:

 

Makes no sense at all.  From what I've read (not all the evidence, I know), Mr. Horton should no  longer be working for BSA. He did nothing criminally wrong (he wasn't a mandatory reporter per NY law), but he made YP useless. I'm also wondering about the other ASMs and the SM in the troop that Kelsey was a part of.  I know as an ASM, I'm reporting any ASM that is sleeping in a car with anybody but his sons. 

Two comments.  "How could this happen again"?  Because some individuals either are not able to understand the pretty clear YP rules, or chose to ignore them due to ignorance and stupidity.  The perpetrator is/was a lawyer, which in itself might be a better lead.  NOBODY should ignore YP rules, and certainly not just because at the time they were not legally required by the State of N.Y.; they still were by the then BSA.  

The reporter though also as in the past has polished this by again stretching the information to make it look even worse.  As far as I know, the BSA and its various acronyms NEVER called the Ineligible Volunteer Files "Perversion Files"; only the yellow journalists and vulture lawyers did and do.  The writer aoslo throws out numbers that are misleading, and the hype is in the headline because it is again Scouting America, and they continue to make it even worse withoput noting that the issues in Scouting were never at the estimated levels of abuse as in other Non Scouting groups, even noting in their own story that the level of abuse in this area was 0.16 percent per thousand.  Society will NEVER stop the issue completely, and more harm has resulted for many that were forced to deal again with trama that was lessened with time and seems now to simply be a slap in the face again with the legal mess and fees going to the wrong place.  Survivors are still being cheated in the original fiasco and many are now gone due to insurance pushback and the greed of a few lawyers.  And this particular lawyer appears to be one of those alredy fleecing victims/survivors.  

If anything, this does reinforce the fact that vigilance by ALL Scouters and those connected needs to be paid, and YP IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE IGNORED, NO MATTER HOW HARD IT MAY BE TO DO WHAT IS MANDATED.  It is all of our responsibities to keep eyes open and follow up as needed just to try and assure we have not missed something.  Better to report it and be wrong, than to ignore it and then have another similar problem.

I truly do not understand how that Council could NOT have acted in accordance with YP, as its basic structure was already in place when this discouraging event happened.  At the same time, the Press needs to stop using SA, children, and tragedy as tools to make it even worse than it may already be.  Way back when it was called yellow journalism, and today that is still what it is.  

17 hours ago, Tron said:

If we went way way way back to the original structure we'd be better off. Back in the beginning councils only provided support in training leaders and starting new units. When you start reading historical documents about scouting in America, the pre-war scouting was one or two adults taking a whole troop to random places for weeks on end in the summer, and meetings the rest of the year preparing for that summer adventure. I am not sure if our culture can handle that today; in the era of digital record keeping and zoom meetings I think we have too many councils and too many council level leaders. The district is the heart of scouting and the money hustle and need to be seen in the office is keeping district executives from building up the movement in the communities. 

We don't have to screw good paid scouters out of jobs; if we could get on the same page we could just eliminate non-district executive positions as people retire/move on. It could be as easy as every time a scout executive quits/retires national should just force a merger if it makes sense/doesn't make a council TOO big. And then let natural attrition work the other duplicate positions out. 

National is hearing it. It's the councils that don't hear it. 

 

Not sure National gets it yet, though there are indications some do.  I am not likely to live long enough, though to see broad positive movement across the spectrum.  Still, at least the program is still making effort, no matter how jumbled it may be.  

If my memory serves, when we did our first trek at Philmont, a fly was part of our gear, and we were specifically encouraged to put it up FIRST and put other gear beneath.  It is an important piece of any site, especially in areas subject to rain or mists.  In cases of drive-ins, a heavier-duty type can be useful, but packing works best with the lightweight ones.  And you do not need poles if you have trees and so on, though they make it easier.  

1 hour ago, Tron said:

What we need is fewer councils. There's a lot of executive staff that can be eliminated and their salaries can be used to fund program. In this age of telecommuting and cloud computing I am not sure if we even need council HQ buildings anymore; just shift that maintenance line item to camps and let everyone work from home in the communities they are supposed to serve. 

While I tend to agree that much of the bureaucracy in local councils can be reduced, certain parts that include real people with real voices are critical, especially with confusion or disappointment.  We are fortunate to have a couple of office people that can carry that torch well, probably better than the few remaining actual executive types of which we have none that fit the traditional role.  

But every council has issues, and money seems to be at the top for most.  Sadly, that affects the actual programming on council levels, but it also is forcing units to do more on their own which seems to often be better in the long run.  We will never be back to the original structures of even twenty years ago, but we can continue to work on putting our best feet forward and become again recognized positively in communities.  Chaallenges will continue, some totally un expected.  Having people work from home with local councils can be positive, but the big barrier continues to be aging gacilities and too much "top down" interference.  JMHO of course.  

Google really is your friend.  Here is a pretty good link on swimming with the life jacket.  After reviewing it, I think perhaps this might be incorporated into the "Safe Swim defense" resources.  

review

After