skeptic

https://www.aol.com/lifestyle/teen-helps-elderly-woman-cross-203010206.html

Not sure why this seems to have gone viral.  I could not help but think of the long running joke about the Scout helping old ladies across the street.  But, my point is simply this is part and parcel an example of what our society seems to have lost, and the fact that Scouting has this as a brick in its foundation.  

7 hours ago, Tron said:

Specifically what adjustments would you make?

Work at finding liaisons with other youth groups, including maybe church groups and such.  Put together a cooperative or two with local outdoor and sporting stores that run programs for climbing and so on.  If feasible, work with local professional groups to use the site for spot training opportunities.  Make serious cooperative out reach to local colleges and schools to develop teaching sites at the camp.  All things that could be workable, or so it seems to me.  Setting rates would need to be fair, and not made to maximize any profit  The main thing would be to simply keep trying new ideas and finding cooperative options Corporate weekends might be offered where they could use the sites for company gatherings.  The goal woould be to make the property viable, but also to have the community see it as an option.   Working with unions might be viable, both in the city and at camp facilities.  Union does training at the camp and the camp gets things fixed professionally.  Be creative, and if it does not pan out, try other things.  Some camps may have the type of location to grow Christmas trees, so that becomes part of the prograam and support.  If the camps have unique locations with interesing geograpy, or in our case a fscsimile fort, offer it for movie sets; maybe even incorporate it as part of the MB program to do that.  Keep that "can't" at bay.  

"As a business the camp is a sunk cost that councils have to pay to maintain and monitor 365. "  And here is where some relatively easy adjustments could make huge differences.  Weak, or political proxies on a Council BOD is useless.  A SE or as seems not the name local CEO, who has little or no concern for the actual membership is a waste of expense and also of time.   Scouting has always, in theory been a Community based organization, as its history shows, and it early connection with the YMCA, etal proves.  As many training courses, local, and at PTC have suggested; you will get little help from others if you do not ask.  But asking just for money is likely a poor method.  Community respect, visible viability of local units, and yes, in this case, making real outreach to the broader community to "share" the facilities often donated in early days by people that cared.  People mostly still care, especially those that recognize the sad media focus on negative, and find ways to show otherwise, or that it is being worked on for a better way, and a safer way; one that can be a model outside the Scouting families.  

On 4/17/2026 at 3:48 PM, Jameson76 said:

You don't mean that spending almost $1,000,000,000 (yes BILLION) dollars on a property / facility that really has no purpose, did not meet an unfilled need, and has no road to profitability may have a negative impact on the organization that dumped all that money into it??  I am shocked.

While the expense issue may have feet, it is not totally accurate.  The facility has proven useful and viable over more recent times.  Will it recoup its cost; that is up to those who can think outside the boxes.  Most camps, once outfitted with basic needs, can be used for many things besides camping or special programs.  And there seems no reason, other than attitude or bias to somehow not offer the space and facilities to outside groups, both as ways to offset expenses, but also as effective utilization of facilities and structures.  It might take a while, but it can and should reach a balance.  The same thing seems common to many council camps that have fallen or barely hanging on.  The local council has upkeep issues, especially as the facility gets older.  But, while the have, for example, say a high level climbing wall, it is standing unused more often than used.  Iff a program of cooperative use with local climbing groups and maybe even schools were to be developed, it could becaome a viable resource and improve all parties programs.  A camp has kitchen and dining hall that is used during Council activities, but often sits unused.  Could a local area cooking school perhaps use it for training in the off-season?  Could that same school fill a summer need as well that is often a real struggle?  The camp is located relatively near seasonal outdoor opportunities; could it be rented out when not used by the council, allowing more people to experience the winter sports and so on?

We come back to the missed opportunity position far too often.  Would the ideas work; probably with proper planning and follow.  But someone says "can't", or we do not have the sources, or other excuses, so the facility ages and disappears.  Not only is this ignorance, but it is lost opportunity.  Some camps also could be used by the FS for training locations, though currently our misguided (my opinion) leadership is doing all it can to decimate the FS and Parks.  Our now lost camp a decade or two back became a six week + basecamp for a major wildfire fight.  They took over the whole facility and it proved viable and also put our camp and council in a good light.  FS for a long time came as part of the Fire Safety skills program in the summer, bringing trucks and tools to share and demonstrate.  But could the site have also been an option regularly for training how to fight the fires, even for non Scouting people?  

So many times "Can't" is the answer, and nobody challenges that.  Our lost camp was built by local groups who felt the Scouting program needed the

I find it interesting that we are seeing basically an updated version of the first moon program.  And the same lines of interest amazingly reappear with the youth.  HMMM.  Could we, as a society, maybe keep the strongest building blocks and share their evolutionary options as bait for the youth?  While I have concerns about the worst of the video game intrusions on some, I also see what appears to be serious parallels to the huge science charge the first decade of the space race.  No good science is wasted, and often reintroductions of some concepts may lead to unique new concepts and developments.  That after all is what comes from the challenges, some of which may stem from the scary video game concerns.  How many of the current day "normal" things were seen in fiction and earlier science probes?  When was the last time someone made a list of how many now basic tools and concepts came from the Race to the Moon?  Not only Tang.  Think about how much easier outdoor activities are with the developments that reach back to the prep for the moon.  How many new materials are mainstream in tents, packs, navigation, and so on?  Young people are often ignored with their idea, yet once in a while those same youth make amazing things, on their own, like the young woman that developed the way to separate micro plastic from the water.  

You cannot take Scouting out of the larger community or its issues.  You can fliter that community through the tenets of Scouting to make the community hopefully better.  YP or whatever the current name is, represents a positive feedback into those larger communities, and the concepts continue to evolve and get stronger, which in turn helps both the program, and those it serves.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Yep, we’ve been talking about this statistic for a long time. The largest group of dropouts in the scouting program are first year troop scouts. And, it’s been that way since National has kept those kinds of records since the 60s.

There is a cultural shock going from being hand held through the first 10 years of life by adults to spending the night in the dark woods with only youth leaders for protection from the sounds of darkness in a tent.

its not an easy problem to solve. Our troop work a number years and different approaches to our program to fix it.

We learned that scouts who hang around after their first summer in the troop, will likely age out in their program.

We were a patrol method, mixed age program heavy on outdoors. We found scouts needed an adult nearby the first few months of their experience to learn how to trust the youth leaders. But, the youth leaders have to be the responsible one-on-one leaders of the new scouts or they likely will not develop that trust for the youth leaders. At least not in the first few months.

Its is a delicate situation that requires creativity, courage and persistence from both the scouts and adults working together to get over the hurdle of getting new scouts past their first summer camp.

Barry

 

Three words that maake a huge difference.  "balance", "awareness", and "responsiveness".  And these concepts actually relate to youth moving from group levels anywhere.  And let them fail, as long as it is safe and then pick them up to try again.  All of this of course needs adults to "adult".

And if that person became the character on Ghosts it would still be the fault of Scouting America,etal.  At least in this country.  

What if's are the worst problem, as we now live in a society that makes them more important than they should be and there is a legal vulture just waiting.  But, we also seem afraid to just be normal and use commn sense within the given framework.  No answer to most of it due to our specific "blame" society.  

Suspect this is not a coincidence.  It was sent to leaders on the list for Scouting Safety.  Note the heading.

"

Yup; I had a similar issue due to changes in codes for training and changing council.  It took a number of reviews with our fabulous registrar to get it all fixed, but now it does show up on the records.  The one thing that does not show in training is the completion of PTC courses.  Have taken a number of them, both district, council, and unit, along with the special on Historical material.  As noted, keep the certs and such.  My OA entry was as a youth in 1959 in a defunct council.  Have the cards.  But, also misplaced a few items and simply redid the update rather than wrestle with it.  

I just thought about my PTC comment.  Would that not be something National might review and fix, especially specialized courses that qualify people for less common areas?  If nothing else, they could add a PTC section to the records.  

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

At least in my area, parents are pressuring for Eagle. Units that do try and focus on adventure, fun, personal growth, etc instead of advancement do not get new Scouts as parents look elsewhere. Even my new troop is focusing on advancement.

 

Yes it has.

 

And be told by the rules lawyers you are "gate keeping," "adding to requirements," etc.

@InquisitiveScouter sadly the leadership at the top is encouraging this, and they do not care what the old boots on the ground want who want to maintain standards want. Heck there is now a majority of volunteers support for them and their decline of standards.

While this seems true, I am not convinced it is.  On the other hand, I do perceive that many have turned inward, so to speak, and are tring to find the path that will allow the real Scouting to again bloom.  But, I also am seeing far too many "giving up", or simply retreating to do what they feel will work, regardless of pressures from the outside.  Scouting is best in my worn views when shared with a broader group of youth and adults.  BP called it aa brotherhood, and it still is if we allow it.  How to allow it with the issues we face is the greater struggle.  I hope my great grand nephew, who has an Eagle father, and a Scouting believer as a GF will still experience the better possibilities.  Would I live to see him also become an Eagle, or simply like his GF, a firm believer in the Spirit of Scouting.  

We have a gathering of Leaders locally at a breakfast on Saturdy coming, and the interhanges from the first two of these recently institued sharings has proven worthwhile.  The Merit Badge events, for example have been over hauled and are getting better and more focused on the actual requirements.  Also, they are nown being broken up to fewer badges, instead focusing on just a dozen or fewer.  Still a long way to go, and I am still fighting with them to recognize the need to put our history forward, as well as sevice beyond the "big" events.  Community is still silently behind the ideas of Scouting, but they too seem to be holding their brath to see if we can fight our way back.  Time will tell, and hopefully I may hold on long enough to see the larger steps.  

This old guy feels as if it does matter and we should stop accepting these types of things and putting some honesty back into our units and setting a better example.  Probably, and sadly, you are likely to be more correct than I am, and we seem to have lost sight of much of the best Character examples we have tried to exemplify over time.  But, maybe not??

Absolute safety is a mirage.  Sometimes things just happen, even with every precaution.  And every effort to find perfection will fail, no matter what.  And in this country, the legal vultures constantly circle because we let them.  

On 3/8/2026 at 5:51 PM, skeptic said:

In our society, that is the United States of America, the legal systme is so twisted that it does not protect most of us and can be rigged or leveraged to generally put the onus on those with the least ability to fight it.  And personal responsibility too often is brushed aside by the "corporate", especially the insurance industry.  Meanwhile, ridiculous payments continue to be made when someone can leverage the system effectively.  And, when the insurance is forced to pay, it is likely the insured will be priced out of future insurance of dropped all together.  Even small claims can lead to increased cost to the insured, whether or not they have had others.  If somebody has no claim for ten years, yet pays on time and fulfills that obligation, why is it legal or seen as acceptable for the company to then drop them or raise their rates drastically?  It is a Catch 22.

With my long beard (not reaally, it will not grow long), I have the imagined perspective of a seasoned adult.

And that is the point.  How many of the issues we see posted here would simply solve themselves if we, you know, "act" like adults?  Hmmmm!

In our society, that is the United States of America, the legal systme is so twisted that it does not protect most of us and can be rigged or leveraged to generally put the onus on those with the least ability to fight it.  And personal responsibility too often is brushed aside by the "corporate", especially the insurance industry.  Meanwhile, ridiculous payments continue to be made when someone can leverage the system effectively.  And, when the insurance is forced to pay, it is likely the insured will be priced out of future insurance of dropped all together.  Even small claims can lead to increased cost to the insured, whether or not they have had others.  If somebody has no claim for ten years, yet pays on time and fulfills that obligation, why is it legal or seen as acceptable for the company to then drop them or raise their rates drastically?  It is a Catch 22.

https://www.fox10tv.com/2026/03/04/family-claims-5-year-old-was-beaten-cub-scout-meeting-while-pack-leader-was-outside-vaping/

After reviewing this and a number of other related pieces from the ether, I cannot say anynthing else but:  FOLLOW THE RULES AND BE ADULTS.  I am sure the whole story will never be shared, but the basics indicate a lack of paying attention, both by the leaders and the parent.  Does it equate to a huge settlement?  In our society, it likely will.  Should it?  In my view, no; but that is not the legal world in which we here exist.  Balance and fairness, not "wind all you can".  (hmmmm).

4 hours ago, swilliams said:

When I first took over in January of 2025 I saw myself staying as Scoutmaster for at least a year or two after my youngest aged out.  He turned 18 this week, and I'm stepping down.  I'll be taking on the role of Eagle coach instead.

The biggest challenge was time, made worse by the lack of parent involvement in the actual running of the Troop.  Of those who were willing to volunteer time, I'd say about 80% of them only wanted to be in an administrative type position - committee member, advancement chair, service chair, etc.  Of those who were ASM's, one never came camping even on the trip they were in charge of organizing, and one needed to be hand-held through everything to the point it was faster and easier for me to do it myself.  (Crazily, this parent is an Eagle, yet can't cook a meal or put up a tent that isn't their own.)  

Anywho... it's been great, and awful, and everything in between.  God bless those of you who are in this role.

I figured I'd share the message I sent to our Troop after the latest political issues, because I think it's a message that's needed no matter what we're facing, but didn't want to clutter the other thread.

Although I have just one more week as your Scoutmaster, I wanted to issue a statement of support for ALL our scouts, our friends, and our families.  I wholeheartedly believe in the overarching mission of Scouting, which is "to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."  That doesn't change how we are meant to treat others, no matter what is said by outside individuals or administrations.  

Trustworthy and Loyal means a scout can be relied upon to act with understanding, Kindness and Courtesy in their interactions with others.  Scouts should strive to be non-discriminatory and Helpful to everyone around them.  In short, the same principles that Baden-Powell espoused when forming this organization still stand today.   Do your best to continue to be the amazing young people that you are.

This theme has appeared often over my time here on the forum, and it almost alway comes back to reality of lives and responsibilities outside of the program.  Early in my long tenure, now fiftyish, I was visiting my parents and mentioned my frustrations to my father, the man that in my youngest years worked three jobs, one full time with a long drive to and from.  Anyway, he looked at me and laughed.  He said something to the effect of, "nothing new".  Then he asked if I thought that all my scout brothers' parents were involved as he was.  He was on the committee in a number of jobs, as actually was my mother for the time.  She had been a denmother for my brother.  He told me a couple of stories that matched mine like a Polaroid almost.  Then he told me that if it was important to someone, they somehow would work at it and often find the time.  But also he told me that life could wear you down, and that Scouting involvement also could, and likely would.  

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I really question that statement.   Is it fully true or only true within boundaries?  ... If I read the explicit requirements, I really have little problem with them.  If I read the larger societal discussion of DEI, I begin to have larger issues.  

My two big issues are ...

#1 the badge was reactionary to a specific place-in-time and the content is redundant with the whole scouting program.  The whole concept of the badge was at the heart of scouting.  We did not need an explicit badge that was a known larger political firestorm.  

#2 In my 20 years of troop scouting, the number one criticism scouts had of merit badges was wasted time.  Four citizenship merit badges?  Five if you count Family Life as Citizen in the Family.  Sure scouts didn't have issue with the content, but I'm pretty sure they had problem with their time being wasted.  

The lesson learned here is BSA should avoid short-term politics and focus on the long-term goals.  Scouting teaches character and responsibility thru outdoor adventures.  That has never changed and it's hard to argue.  Leave the political stuff (membership, orientation, gender, politics, etc) to our character partners.  Scouting has an outdoor structure to develop youth.  The rest is outside world noise.

I might add to your comment the concept of true service and community involvement, often integrated with that outdoor element.  It often seems some of the most laudable services revolve around outdoor protection and rejuvenation, along with access improvement.  

47 minutes ago, skeptic said:

One of my local Scouters posed a good point to consider.  BSA went to court to avoid militarism in the early days and pushed many early groups out, absorbing them or just letting them dry up, so to speak.  But, the cooperation of the Government and military with Scouting has been a mainstay of the program ver the years, and not just at Jamborees.  Support for many early Sea Scout groups was directly related to naval bases and the Coast Guard.  But it was mostly symbiotic in that the Scouts got contact and excitement, and the military groups got opportunities to work with larger groups in organization and staging, and so on.  Indirectly, the selling of War Bonds was part of this as well.  Of course, most interactions were peripheral much of the time.  Tours and on-base campsites were often available at larger installations.  Our troop, for years, camped annually at Edwards and also went to Air Shows there on those camping weekends.  All went away with 9-11.  A concern has been noted that we need to seriously consider what a merit badge for Military Service might entail, but it is a bit dicey on the surface, and I would not want to see something that could put pressure in some manner to join.  

My wasting tech skills are showing.  Oh well.  I continue to find it odd that the discussions on the MB going away basically are rehashing the gripes when it was put in place.  I said at the time that I thought it was simply unneeded if we were using the simple concept of Scout Spirit as part of their reviews, and also as leaders doing our best as well.  IF the rank review, the thing called the SM Conference touches the review of Spirit, then it is a regular review of how well the Scout, and frankly, many adults understand the concepts.  But I am old, and still considered Woke by a few, whatever that actually means

19 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No, they do not.  They "lose" out on a great opportunity because most leaders neither understand nor abide by the Scout Oath and Law.  In a previous discussion here, a leader, who is supposed to have a lot of time dealing with Scouting, made some of the same errant statements you have made, and showed a deep unfamiliarity with the basic values and the texts we are supposed to be teaching Scouts from.

Let's not... the badge is gone.  Please focus instead on the exact values, texts, and verbiage mentioned in the thread above, in the Scout Oath and Law, and their explanations in the Scout Handbook, to help the Scouts in your unit understand what they are pledging at each and every meeting (or should be).  You have many many opportunities to do this through their rank advancements...

You comment indicates you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Scout Oath and Law, the rank requirements, and many other merit badges available which cover topics like these.  (granted, many of those merit badges are not required for advancement)

As an adult leader, you have hundreds (almost?) of opportunities throughout a Scout's "career" to address these types of issues.  Yet, you abdicates your responsibility to model and develop character and citizenship to a (now defunct) merit badge which many Scouts wait until they are far along in the program to earn???

A few references:

Rank requirements:

Requirements 1a & 1b: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Scout-Rank.pdf  and specifically, requirement 6b.  With links here: https://www.scouting.org/training/youth/scouts-bsa/  (required again at Star rank)

Requirements 7b & 9:  https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Tenderfoot-Rank.pdf

Requirements 8e, 9a, 9b, & 10: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Second-Class-v2.pdf

Requirements 9a, 9d, & 11:  https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/First-Class.pdf

Requirements 2 & 6b  https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Star-Rank.pdf

Requirement 2: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Life-Rank.pdf

See page 21, Requirement 2: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/3321625-Scouts-BSA-Requirements.pdf  (oddly enough, no direct link to Eagle requirements, but they are there in the Requirements Book)

Requirement 1: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Eagle-Palms.pdf

----------------------------

Eagle required Merit Badges:

Family Life, 6b2: https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/family-life/

Citizenship in the Community:  1, 3b, 5 & 8:  https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/citizenship-in-the-community/

Citizenship in the Nation: 4b:  https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/citizenship-in-the-nation/

Citizenship in the World: 1, 2, and some of 7: https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/citizenship-in-the-world/

Communication: 1b & c, & 5:  https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/communication/

-------------------------------------------------------------

And sprinkled into some of these electives:

https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/disabilities-awareness/

https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/american-cultures/

https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/cybersecurity/

https://www.scouting.org/merit-badges/crime-prevention/

 

And, using your logic, I will rephrase your statement:

"This is why I feel Scouting America's executive leadership has sold out to the current DEI Movement.  By adding Citizenship in Society merit badge -- and not highlighting that these ideas are fundamental to the Scout Oath and Law, and deeply inherent in our program, the Scouting America leadership has effectively stated that our existing program and the requirements we have painstakingly developed HAVE NO MERIT.

And that's just wrong."

If BSA was serious about this, way back then, instead of trying to spring into the fray of virtue signaling, they would have made this a requirement for joining, or for earning Scout rank.

 

One of my local Scouters posed a good point to consider.  BSA went to court to avoid militarism in the early days and pushed many early groups out, absorbing them or just letting them dry up, so to speak.  But, the cooperation of the Government and military with Scouting has been a mainstay of the program ver the years, and not just at Jamborees.  Support for many early Sea Scout groups was directly related to naval bases and the Coast Guard.  But it was mostly symbiotic in that the Scouts got contact and excitement, and the military groups got opportunities to work with larger groups in organization and staging, and so on.  Indirectly, the selling of War Bonds was part of this as well.  Of course, most interactions were peripheral much of the time.  Tours and on-base campsites were often available at larger installations.  Our troop, for years, camped annually at Edwards and also went to Air Shows there on those camping weekends.  All went away with 9-11.  A concern has been noted that we need to seriously consider what a merit badge for Military Service might entail, but it is a bit dicey on the surace, and I would not want to see something that could put pressure in some manner to join.  

As I noted locally, we now pretty much have the ball in our respective courts, and we are challenged to find the correct direction, on our local levels.  This can lead to some truly great outcomes, but it may also find greater challenges for locals, especially those already struggling.  Local councils are an enigma it seems, either poorly led, or simply overwhelmed by National directives and erratic direction.  Time will tell.  I hope the true Spirit wins out and comes out stronger.  

21 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not true... 

I had several Scouts who already had enough optional merit badges to satisfy their Eagle requirements, and then had this additional Eagle requirement imposed upon them.

They were not happy.

I have had zero complaints from any parents.

The addition was two years ago almost; so what could is/was the problem?  Most of us dealt with it within weeks or a couple of months at best.  We did two or three group classes since, and yes, we got some interesting views from the youth, some that made the leaders sit up and think a bit harder.  Still, no relly needed if we encourage "Spirit".