skeptic

You likely do not want to have some responses of we old people that were elected long ago.  It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep.  

Today, since I am still the on paper SM, though not active directly, I get the notices which I forward to my younger adults.  I have counseled them with "my opinion" that if they choose to be in the election then they also have to commit to the Ordeal and at least some initial participation.  Otherwise, I will not approve their being elected.  The SM still has veto power, and I choose to use it in this.  Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps.  The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.  

In regard to the Youth, my only counsel is to keep them in focus and do not let adult things interfere.  Every unit is different and has myriad issues and personalities.  None of us can "fix" things all the time.  IF the adult leadership is an issue, and you cannot work within it to the benefit of the youth, then perhaps that decision to find another option for yourself is viable.  As often noted; all units would be great if we could keep the adults in the background.  Scouting is still one of the most shining options for the malaise of America, or the U.S.  We do what we can and pray a lot.

Yep.

That would make far too much sense.  

If the young person is challenged, perhaps seriously, in the "very competitieve school", then perhaps the Scouting is a release, and he or she finds it of lesser import.  Age may be a factor eventually if the Scouting interest or involvement is consistent.  I have had a couple of long term, but stalled in rank youths that suddenly somewhere past sixteen or seventeen light a fire under themselves for Scouting rank.  Sadly, some waited too long, at least in ur unit where they still had to do the work.  Every young person sometimes loses focus, or is too focused on other goals.  We also do not know often what other pressures or home and school issues may "really" be in play.  If they take the "Spirit" forward in their lives, the work is done.  

So many things get in the way of real continuity.  For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up.  That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex.  He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's.  Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's.  WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period.  He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated.  Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit.  Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves.  I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat.  I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning.  We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history.  The history, over a century is a factor though.  So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni.  We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit.  Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults.  Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.  

Probably polishing my "annoyed stone" a bit, but the fact he did not make Eagle is secondary.  Did he enjoy his time, and did he learn to live the Spirit?  

And those are the opportunities lost, in my view.  Reach out to local outdoor sources that may appreciate the option on occasion, and do not make it too expensive, but also not a loss leader, so to speak.  That might include schools, church groups, local colleges that might do classes there, sporting goods stores with outdoor programs, especially if a climbing facility is there.  But also maybe even council insider use for family options.  Always seems to be excuses, but little done.  Our camp was front and center for fire camp more than once, but it might have also been coused for training, including he scouts in summer and such.  Never even suggested, or if it was, never got beyond a mention in a meeting few were allowed to attend.  One of the biggest barriers that still seems to survive is "can't".  As my grandfather often told me, "Can't" never could do anything".  

Is the board really trying, or is it just for show?  I have become very jaded about how boards operate based on stories I see, and local experience.  They seem to not make the issue public until it is too late to do much, and often many are completely caught off guard.  

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I think you need to account for the fact that BOTH juniors and seniors compete for varsity spots (along with some promising underclassmen). 

If the roster size for baseball, basketball, and soccer is 25 (that's being generous for baseball and basketball), and the distribution by class is roughly 40% seniors, 40% juniors, and 20% underclassmen, that works out to roughly 10 kids per grade among the upper classes. In our example of 200 boys, assume maybe 1/4 fall into the "hopeful demographic" (this is consistent with what I've seen in youth basketball where about 50 boys come out every year). That works out to only 10 of 50 "hopefuls" (20%) who are able to play a varsity sport.

My son only does two activities - Basketball and Cub Scouts. I think he's relieved to go to Cub Scouts sometimes because he doesn't have to worry about competing. And sure, a family can still spend A LOT on Scouting if they desire, but there's no "arm's race" like you see in youth sports. A scout doesn't need to participate in every activity or risk being outpaced by peers.

Or, from my observations and stories I have heard (?) they do not have to worry about not being allowed to particpate as they can, in most cases.  No absolutes of course, but the sports stories are numerous, and I have encountered a Scout on occasion that had a coach tell them it was either or, and no matter, if he missed a pracice he was benched or even off the "team".  Have to wonder the definition of team here of course.  

It is never simply apples and oranges in these comparisons.  So many other things affect the outcomes and the possibilities.  Too often the broad brushes just smear the actual info and ultimate data.  All activities have some kind of cost, though some are far more expensive monetarily.  Yet, often the kids just want to participate on their own terms.  We used to often play the now almost defunct baseball game, work up.  It allowed many more players if they chose to wait the rotations.  Another baseball type game was three flys up.  Pick up games still exist, though too often they get taken over by bullies and bigger kids, which is sad.  I was fortunate to have a place on HS teams, but I was not a star, just a needed body with basic skills.  No easy and absolute answers or solutions.  But, we still need to make the effort.  

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My thoughts,

1. BSA's standards for Scouts BSA have dropped. Once upon a time the standards were "Master the skills," and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done."  Today its is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth...  It is thus more about the learning experience than it is about the specific skills learned. "

Best example of this is the "First Class Camp" After doing all the basic Scoutcraft requirements, they needed to lead a campout for a minimum of 24 hours with at least 1 other Scout without and adult.  Nowadays 2 adults over 21 are needed.

A lot of folks I know complain about the new standard. And we see what "One and Done" is doing to the program. When you have a Life Scout, with their Eagle Board of Review scheduled, can not do basic T-2-1 first aid, let alone First Aid Merit Badge requirements,  there is a problem.

2 Adult training is a joke. I had scheduled and was prepping a CS Basic Leader Training course when the CS Leader Specific Training courses came out. I cannot tell you how much information was left out, especially at the Webelos level. We did CS Specific, but added a lot from the old CSBLT that was missing. Ditto with ITOLS.. I supplemented a bunch of material from older BSHBs and Field Books, to make sure they got the info they needed. And they have watered down the syllabus since I taught it.

3. There use to have experienced folks called commissioners to help units out. Problem is that they had no authority to  enforce stuff, and insure a quality program. Worse is when you have new folks telling commissioners they don't know anything about the program and they need to butt out, or Scouting needs to change with the times and their ideas are better. Very discouraging and makes folks not want to help.

4.National and councils seems to be focused on advancement, not program. How many Scouts you see with all the MBs? How many councils have summer camps that give away MBs or have MBUs that are essentially MB giveaways?

Sadly that is what the majority of parents want today: quick and easy advancement. They do not care if their Scouts actually know anything. They do not care if their Scouts have adventures and fun, they care about 1 thing: getting Eagle.

Some who know Eagle should mean something see this and ask themselves "why bother?" Others are fighting tooth an nail to stop the degradation. However we are getting fewer and fewer.

They have not pushed me over the edge completely, but I am near where you are now.  Such promise in the program if it is simply allowed to function.  I will continue to do what little I can, but my hisorical efforts are ignored or blocked locally now.  Few want to reflect on such things, other than to ask how much something is worth perhaps.  And, I am worn out with noone stepping up to help.  Have reached out to the local historical museum to at least save some stuff that the council is on the verge of losing or destroying, or simply ignoring its value.  BP must be pretty shiny, along with a few other greats.  

You have some possible options, it seems.  But, if that is not enough to meet it, a discussion of what that means and how it might be applied in some other area in which he might have an interest.  

Reality is that we that perpetuate the real programs from our personal trenches locally need to scout on and take aid if we are fortunate from a local council.  Sadly, our local experience is far from positive, though they do pass along most of the National rehash of some older viable options and many, in my view, suspect ideas that tip toe on the edge of real Scouting.  

The issue is one of humanity and the people who are warped in some way.  And those people, even if involved in the program, are still warped.  No manner of rules or guidelines will completely stop someone that is going to do abusive things.  That is why everyone needs to be aware and respond as required if something is out of line, no matter who it is.  Sadly, no barriers are completely foolproof, no matter what they are.  

Ultimately, the failure before, and very likely again, is not a Scouting issue.  What is a Scouting issue may be too many NOT paying attention or simply following the rules, no matter how they may feel personally.  IF the concern is not valid, then it will likely prove itself, but if it is valid, and it is ignored due to public opinion and personal friendships, then the failure is not on the back of Scouting.  

2 hours ago, Tron said:

Yeah, .00000000000000000000000000000001% of the military budget; good one, they'll just order 1 less box of $10,000 toilet seats. 

I'd just be surprised if they had any fortitude? Fun point about this administration, Trumps approval rating is like 10% above the projected percentage of likely voters who were going to vote for him. He's actually polling better now than before his re-election. Seriously though, what's the position of the scouting caucus? I don't see one, someone throw me a link to a real position. As far as I can see they're not taking a position on this. What's the point of putting time into having a scouting caucus if they're just going to roll over and take it? 

I did not get any esponse, but I have challenged them to actually stand up for the basic tenets of Scouting and to not just use their "support" or being an Eagle as some kind of additional reason to tempt people to vote for them.  I do not see many of them living the tenets in their so called leadership positions.   If they did, perhaps we might actually see something positive develop in Congress.  I get the impression many of them do not understand how poorly they are living those tenets, if at all.  Certainly few are serving with Honor, or "doing their best", if the results we have are any measure

.  

3 hours ago, Tron said:

Not much meat here except a personal comment. Is the scouting caucus going to actually level a position on this? 

Hard to say.  If they have the fortitude to stand up to the ignorance that continues to grow out of this sorry administration, maybe.  Not going to hold my breath though.  

A response from the Scouting Caucus in Congress.  https://thehill.com/homenews/5623663-glenn-thompson-pentagon-proposal-scouting-ties/

30 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free.  Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact.  Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness.

Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no.  Quite the opposite.  Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure.  The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." 

Do the units supporting these get good training?  Absolutely. 

Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives?  Absolutely.

Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree?  Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

 

Thanks for noting "free" is not a good word here.  Nothing is ever free, but often it can be less expensive.  

We have myriad examples of poor end results when the first notice of overreach and ignornce appeared and we ignored it.  Bringing it to the fore just makes it less of a total surprise when one of the ego meisters in charge gets such poor ideas.  What the nay sayers never note in regard to the Jambo involvments is the almost free training and practice the Military gets in those events.  Dealing with large groups in events and emergencies is difficult to stage, so the Jambo offers one way for that to happen.  In 85 when "Bob" came to visit, the Army made themselves proud in their response and support.  The speed and turn around of drying out thousands of sleeping bags and restoring order in flattened areas was beyond expectations.  And, if our old friend Joe Price's story to me as to how he became a collector is partly true, the Military drew on early Scouting manuals and training to kick start and support the huge training needs.  He was tasked in his position in a part of the support groups in finding as many of those Scouting resources for training support that he could, and so it became a long time hobby after the War.  He told me once that the original Field Book by Hillcourt wa one of the standard resources, as were the early Sea Scout manuals.  

And the continued service to honor Vets on the various National Days is almost expected in many communities.  The service to the Civil War reunion in the thirties or the flag postings in cemeteries we see regularly.  Many instances of horable Flag retirements at Scout camps, and the Eagle projects that focus on respect for the military and its members.  

IF this actually is proposed, I suspect it will NOT be well received by Congress, even in this confused period of our history.  

4 hours ago, scoutldr said:

The values of the DoD and woke Scouting no longer align.  Predictable.

Woke is not a real thing; just a hot button prod.  Simple adherence to the Scout Law, Oath, and so on is not Woke, just civility and basic kindness for others, no matter their beliefs or how they may look, o what their name are.  Ignorance held up by stupidity and sheeple.  

The included link came in an email to me this morning from National, it appears.  How many others may have gotten this?

https://www.npr.org/2025/11/25/nx-s1-5615164/pentagon-scouting-hegseth-cut-ties