skeptic

Very confusing info coming out of our roundtable this evening about the Eagle references, and the traditional letters. I am still trying to get the specific details on the council advancement decision regarding this, but if I understood the executive correctly, they have decided that the letters are no longer required to be requested by the candidate or his family. If the board wants letters, they themselves will need to contact the scout's references.

Now this makes no sense to me, and seems to take another mode of showing responsibility and ability to communicate with adults away from the scout. It also is putting an unfair burden on board chairs.

The executive said that the decision is based on the advancement committee's interpretation of the National guidelines; that nowhere are letters required to be obtained by candidates. They simply are told to list references; and contacting them is the board's responsibility.

Tried to find written specifics on National site, but of course could not. Maybe someone can point me to the right link, if it exists on line. Will try to read anything in the council office, and also speak with the district advancement chair.

Thanks for any clarification someone here might give me.

Matter of fact, most scout camping was more like car camping in the early days. Only they used horses or mules, along with carts or sleds. Equipment was bulky and heavy. Also, where they could go then had very few restrictions on cutting, fishing, and hunting, so they also did that. There were a lot of day hikes done back then, especially on weekends. Long term camp often had cabins, large group tents, lean-to's, or tarp shelters. When I was a scout and explorer, what the high adventure treks are today was very uncommon for troops; it was generally only done out of a summer camp or one of the National bases. Again, equipment was a huge issue; not so much cost, but simply weight.

Trying to compare today with yesteryear is very often a very uneven comparison. The only real problem with car camping today is that you are usually accosted by idiots with loud music and parties, dogs, booze, and guns. Yet another reason to try to not lose more scout camps. In California now, it is really harder each year to do backpacking much of the year, as they are tending to close areas more often due to fire concern.

So, we do what we can, and hopefully they still are able to do enough backpacking to spend quality time in more serene surroundings, and know whether they want to pursue it further, and make the investments necessary.

Last Sunday I was honored to be invited by my grand-nephew, who is 15, and working on his Eagle project, to participate in a fund raising recital he developed. He has what I would say is an above average project, and he "is in charge".

The recital included about ten numbers done by about a dozen of his friends, both boys and girls. He also let his little 8 year old sister and a friend do GOD BLESS AMERICA at the start. What was most impressive was the way he calmly (especially compared to his mom) took charge setting things up and adjusting. His parents made a huge effort to not take over, though it was hard for "mom".

There were only three adults involved directly in the actual program, and we were limited to very small parts. His father, my nephew, did an invocation; I was asked to say a "few" words about earning Eagle and the intent of the project in the process, as well as set up a Scouting display; and his mom's brother, a doctor at the children's hospital for whom the project is being done said a few words as to how and why he felt it was worthwhile. All the rest was choreographed and organized using only 14 to 17 year old teens. It seemed to be a huge success, though total donations were not yet tallied when I left. It was pretty much a full house.

I am looking forward to seeing the end result, a video designed to walk a child and his parents through the process of an operation at the hospital. The hope is that by having this video available, they can ease the stress that is so common for the children and their families, as they will have a better understanding of what is going on. Besides making the video, with his uncle's help, he is buying the equipment to do it and present it, and donating it all to the hospital.

Yes, I am already proud of him. And I am looking forward to being at his Eagle presentation in the near future.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

"E", don't feel bad. I just discovered this past weekend while participating in my grand-nephew's fund raiser for his Eagle project that the "loser sign" is only valid when done with the left hand. Who knew? And even the word "cool" seems to be cyclical. Being older, I never quite catch up with what is currently in, often embarrassing myself with already out of date comments. What is good about the youth, for the most part, they seem quite willing to accept me that way, and even occasionally try to improve my "coolness". But, I still have no idea how to knock knuckles, or whatever it is they do; they just smile and shake hands instead. Of course that even goes for OA handshakes, as I have yet to master the intricacies of the various levels; I just let the Brother arrange the fingers as needed.

What is beginning to surprise me a bit, as I sub in the upper levels of elementary school is how often the kids actually want to hear stories about your past. I am as old or older than most of their grandparents, and they seem fascinated with how things were when I was their age, or younger. One of my most successful get control things is to occasionally slip a story in about growing up, if time allows. Even the attention mongers generally listen, often having the most serious questions. It is funny to see the looks on kids faces when you mention going to a Saturday matinee with a quarter, and not only getting in, but being able to buy popcorn, a drink, and candy; and there was always a serial, 10 or so cartoons, a drawing for free tickets and candy, and a main feature, usually a B western or early sci-fi.

The longer I am involved with kids, the more I am encouraged by their resilience and good natures. Get past the shells on some, and you find such wonderful personalities. Get the clown to be serious and find a depth unseen normally. My biggest struggle, whether with scouts or the kids in the schools is to try to not overly react to the "difficult" ones, and to remember that the large majority are wonderful little buds of humanity just starting to bloom; and that pruning them too aggressively will not be good for them, but not pruning at all will ultimately be disastrous.

(This message has been edited by skeptic)

IMHO this would work very well with shorts or pants, as you can get almost identical color material in a number of options. If a troop simply adopted a less costly, but rugged option for the scouts it would likely barely be noticed, if at all.

For the shirt, as pointed out, there are a number of options for authentic uniforms. Cubs entering webloes 2 would likely be better off to buy a too large shirt then so it can be easily carried over to boy scouts. Then, when the time comes, again get one that needs a bit of growing in. It is far better they be a bit blousey or long, than they grow out of it in too short a time. Of course, hopefully you can also encourage parents to donate older shirts when they replace their own son's shirt, so you have lenders when needed. Our real problem with our closet is we have almost nothing for the older scouts, as those shirts do not get donated normally.

Ah, it makes sense, almost anyway, that a Scout forum would still not work with anything but IE; just like the on-line advancement and recharter.

With effort I could "grok" the code; but it is too much trouble frankly.

Wonder if it works for me this time? Lets see. Nope, all I get is a pretty lavender box with no way to type or paste. Maybe I will figure it out someday.

In regard to Mike Rowe, here is a link to his special site for recognition. He set it up specifically for this, as he has so many requests.

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/scrap-yard/eagle-scout-letter/

This reminds me of the thing I got from my brother that garbles all the words, but they all start and end with the right letter. It is supposedly a test to indicate your synapses are still working, as the brain, according to this anyway, will decode the word no matter what, as long as the first and last letters are correct. Interesting, though am not an expert in the area.

I still have problems keeping my thoughts to myself about how bad the grammar, spelling, and so on tends to be on these boards, and others as well. To me, it is either a reflection of laziness or simply our poor school system. While I know I occasionally make minor errors of similar nature, I really do try to not do so. Most of my editing is related to rereading something and seeing an error of syntax or spelling. The one that continues to grate on me is the misuse of "lose" and "loose"; and I feel this is usually simply a matter of lack of attention, as the extra "O" can easily be typed. But, the meaning is drastically changed just the same. The other one that tends to annoy me is the almost totally lack of understanding of the difference between bring and take. The nuance is very specific; and people in everyday speech and writing almost universally misuse it. Of course there are the old standby's, "there, they're, and their", and "two, too, and to".

But, I have come to just take a deep breath and read the intent of postings the best I can, as I cannot make people pay attention. It is just disappointing to see so few individuals, many supposedly with college degrees, who do not seem to understand basic English and its usage.

And so, back to trying to simply accept and ignore as best I can.

Brent;

The dropping of the two bombs occurred only then, and it was, from most documents now available a horrible decision by Truman, and also had very negative effects on many other individuals directly involved. Most importantly, it has NOT been done again, and hopefully the horror of it will continue to stop it, though today we have some very warped minds skewing the moral issue you put forward.

But the discussion here is the "continued use" of torture, with some suggesting the end may justify the result. Certainly not nearly enough evidence to say with certainty that you will get enough viable info to offset the negative views in spawns.

You are not making a valid comparison, as I see it.

Scouting can contribute hugely to a boy's spiritual growth through its outdoor program. It is very difficult to deny something greater than ones self after a few nights spent under a dark night sky, or sitting on a rock overlooking the majesty of mountains rolling down to the sea or towering above with snow capped peaks. Hopefully most scouts will have the opportunity to simply sit quietly in mostly unblemished outdoors and simply absorb the experience.

"The systematic use of terror to coerce. So tell me why someone who waterboards someone else is not a terrorist?"

Because our reason is better than their reason. Isn't it obvious?

So, the quote is from a Service Library booklet, "Your Home, Your Boy and Scouting", copyright 1928. There is no specific author noted on the title, so must be a group effort.

Interesting, just the same.

Acco gets the rubber chicken; good job. See other thread please.

"Obviously the home of today is not the home of yesterday. Times change and with them also our attitudes of mind and conditions of living. Perhaps we have lost something in the evolution from the old fashioned home to the modern one, but certainly we have also gained greatly in many respects."

Perhaps someone will actually look at this now. Amazing how often things make sense even when they are old.

"Certainly every boy deserves and should have, so far as is humanly possible, a happy home in which father and mother share his interests in comradeship and understanding. It is likewise the responsibility of the home to see to it that the boy's out-side-the home life is also happy, constructive and of the right sort. It is along this line that Scouting has a very real contribution to make. It aims to supplement and intensify the best influences of family life, to work with the home for the happiness and well being of the boy,......"

"A boy does what he knows, is what he does, and what he is going to be, he is now becoming."

"Obviously the home of today is not the home of yesterday. Times change and with them also our attitudes of mind and conditions of living. Perhaps we have lost something in the evolution from the old fashioned home to the modern one, but certainly we have also gained greatly in many respects."

"Certainly every boy deserves and should have, so far as is humanly possible, a happy home in which father and mother share his interests in comradeship and understanding. It is likewise the responsibility of the home to see to it that the boy's out-side-the home life is also happy, constructive and of the right sort. It is along this line that Scouting has a very real contribution to make. It aims to supplement and intensify the best influences of family life, to work with the home for the happiness and well being of the boy,......"

"A boy does what he knows, is what he does, and what he is going to be, he is now becoming."

Another response for consideration. Much of what he says makes sense from my personal beliefs. Still, I realize this is a hard subject with which to deal.

http://blog.sojo.net/2011/05/04/is-it-moral-to-celebrate-a-persons-death/

Can't we all just Grok each other?

Barry; Not building refineries is the decision of the oil companies, not a government one. They keep saying it is too expensive up front, and so they do not want to do it. Maybe, they could take a little of the obscene profits and do it, rather than continuing to say they cannot afford it. Heaven forbid they make a little less, while the rest of us perhaps have a bit of relief.

From the perspective of SM, it is imperative that I take my responsibility seriously in regard to holding a scout to a consistent, but fair standard. That is delineated by the Oath and Law primarily. Weighing the performance of an individual is very subjective, and needs to consider age, maturity (some older scouts are still very immature), special circumstances such as diagnosed issues or diseases, and honesty with the scout and his parents as to my expectations. When a boy starts, it is pretty simple; I review the guidelines, the Oath,Law, Motto, and Slogan, explaining my views on how he meets these general guidelines. I try to establish that it is his "best", based on "I will do my best", that will be my measurement.

From there, it becomes a constant weighing of observations, things brought to me by other leaders or scouts, and so on. If a situation arises that requires more than a simple reminder, then it is important it be dealt with sooner than later. If it is extremely serious, my actions usually are quick, but then brought to the parent committee for review, which in turn may, or may not lead to additional accountability of the scout or family, or even an override of my first response.

The most important thing is that these expectations need to be consistent, fair, and start from day one. Yes, age and maturity, as noted, are factors. Extremely serious issues should include whatever outside individuals needed, and definitely need to be reported in writing to the council. If a boy, or leader, is asked to leave, that too should be reported with details to the council, and kept by the unit on file. This rarely occurs, but it can unfortunately.

In almost 34 years as a SM, we have had fewer than a half dozen issues leading to expulsion; but we have likely had 10-15 that either held up rank advancement, led saw probation, or a scout leaving due to the review with myself or committee. There have been two that were considerations at Eagle boards, but did not keep the boy from receiving the award. Both of these are now adults, and they have told me that their experiences dealing with the problems were major turning points in their lives.

We do no one, scout, troop, families, or the BSA any favors by sweeping things under the carpet, though giving a second or third chance is fine in most cases, as long as the problem is still dealt with and the scout knows what needs to be corrected. Scouts are no different than other boys, except that they supposedly are honor bound to live to a higher code. A major point of holding an adult leadership position is to "actually lead", to set the example, and to do what needs to be done, even if you know it will cause discomfort, emotional upheaval, or flak to fly.

And so the sermon is done. JMHO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Beavah;

Can you send me "Joe's" address please?

OGE; I totally agree. Great characterization. And, from that perspective, I can see similarities to Obama. He too entered office with high expectations of doing things he felt important and worthwhile; but he really was not prepared for the gridlock of the Washington hierarchy. The difference is likely in his response and continuing struggle to adjust and find other ways.

Our country's current problems, as has been noted many times, are not the fault of one president. Most of the worst issues have developed over at least 20 to 30 years, and just simply came to head at the end of the Bush II era and continued to explode into the current administration. It certainly does not help that our so called representatives mostly still do not have a clue, and simply continue to posture and refuse to find middle ground.

JMHO

I would certainly NOT even consider the idea of kicking a boy this young out based on this. At that age, any number of things could be in play, depending on what is happening in his family, as well as his intellectual development. If he is advanced for his age in his thinking, he may just be in his first period of questioning his parents and what he has been TOLD. There may have been a recent emotionally damaging experience with his church, or losing a loved one, of other similar issues.

Definitely should touch base with the parents, but carefully. One of the reasons for reverence in scouting is to help young people decide these things on their own levels and inter-personally. Certainly it is too early to hold back advancement I would think.

Sometimes I think we might be better served to have the definition shown for reverence to say something like, "A scout is spiritual, and seeks a greater power. He respects the convictions of others in their own spiritual journey." But that is just me.

At camporee, with around 500+ attendees, a lot of call outs were made; think they indicated close to 50. They culled them out one at a time from a huge circle, and took forever. After a full day of events in warm weather, as well as the dust and pollen from the pastureland, it seemed like it was far too long, and soon lost its impact on the rest.

Any ideas how they might do it a bit quicker in large events? I think they could do an entire troop together, using proper number of guides needed and simply take them as a group for the actual Tap Out before exiting the area. Would likely cut time in half.

Event went off well; weather was almost perfect. Slept out under stars and did not have to zip the bag, yet comfortable. My boys had fun, though did not choose well in events to try; waited too long for a couple, which kept them from doing more. They are starting to act like a patrol; but long way to go.

Am zonked, and will take a couple of days to recuperate. Stew turned out pretty well, but forgot to bring salt and pepper to add to taste. Campfire was impressive to start, and they retired two American flags with respect and dignity.