skeptic

Too often the case, but definitely not a universal issue. We have had numerous closely aligned board members, and in the over forty years I have been here, a great many of them were active in the real trenches. BUT, still, we have also had our share of disnconnected and, shall we suggest, puppets.

Related, but peripheral to the topic. I found myself wondering how James E. West might have reacted to this whole mess today. If some may not know, West came from an orphanage and had physical issues. But he baecame a lawyer and was an early player in the legal protection efforts of children. Much of his work was based on his own childhood and experiences in the "system". And, while in many ways, West was difficult and dogmatic, I have to think he would have been on the right side of this mess given the changes in society since his death. Just a thought.

Now, this is surely interesting, and perhaps something of what the public today might wish to note. " Chief Scout Executive James E. West visited Houston in late January 1923. The following quotes are from Jan 23-24, 1923 Houston Chronicle articles. The Ku Klux Klan was very much in the national headlines. While he does not explicitly mention the Klan, I believe Mr. West's remarks which follow are directly aimed at the Klan. "At this time when the spirit of intolerance apparently is gaining such headway in the social life of this great American government I think it would be appropriate for every big daily newspaper in the United States to carry the 12th Scout Law in big headlines so the world might occasionally read it and maybe profit by it." "The basic law of scoutcraft is that the scout must be reverent to God; faithful in religion and tolerance toward the religious conviction of his fellow scout." "More than 90 percent of the Boy Scout troops in America can be traced to churches or to the leadership of the churches. We have Catholic Boy Scout troops and we are proud of them. We have Jewish troops and we are proud of them. We take them all -- all religions and creeds -- and weld them into the melting pot of pure Americanism and build them into responsible American citizens."

Just my personal opinion, but the local council there is not showing good judgment. Would rather see the land protected with a smaller profit on it, than see it developed. From my perspective, even with all the issues currently, that should be a major consideration. Once it is developed, other than as a park or preserve, it is gone, period.

This really surprises people? They are simply validating my descriptions from early on in this mess.

In this case, you need to paint with a broader brush, one that includes most of the past attitudes of society at the times. Family fears of embarrassment or harm to the victims, officials that did not comprehend the problem or were fearful of law suits for slander and such due to the often vague or difficult to prove cases, and other issues beat to death on these pages already, And yes, it does need to be addressed, but far beyond the BSA, as they are only the iceberg's tip compared to the darkness lingering in the larger societal shadows and past. Sadly, too many cannot fathom the idea that BSA was and is part of the larger communities then, and still is. As such, they will never completely eliminate these things, but they can do a better job at flushing them out and then doing what is right, even if local authorities of community leaders try to avoid it due to a perpetrator's money or political position. And, as has been noted in the case of the youth from the AF unit, parents must cooperate if timely prosecution is to happen. We are hearing on this board the voices of survivors who likely had no real voice in the trauma at the time it occurred, and who were made victims over again by whomever may have not responded for them for whatever reason. But, I personally do not see evidence of the BSA somehow purposely allowing or plotting abuse. I see, again people with misplaced local agendas to not harm or embarrass the organization, and simply a hard to comprehend, based on today's views, societal response. And I still also see BSA as a positive option for youth development today, and one that overwhelmingly has had positive effects on the vast majority of its members. This view does not mean that I now or ever have condoned the terrible abuses that have taken place. We just need to be sure we are using cleaner and more healthful bath water.

"Uunderfunded" is in the eye of the beholder. I find that comment ludicrous; but then what do I know? The whole thing is a ludicrous swamp of intermingles pain, grief, and greed. I just want it done so we can try to move forward with todays world, rather than trying to remake the past.

"extended interpretations". Hmmmm.😀

Every contact I had in the past had the details available. It was certainly clear to me then, and still is. Yes, it is sort of part of the vanity press world, but it is not a scam, as the details are readily shared. On the other hand, the follow up cards and even phone calls can be confusing. In the end, it is a personal choice. Like most things, just be sure you understand it and decide for yourself. My comment about negative is that too many suggest it is IS a scam, even though it has been around for over a decade now. Just because some do not feel it is worthwhile and too expensive does not make fraudulent. But just my view and not worth any more discussion.

It is an apparently annual thing, sort of like the publishe your poem or short story things. Not a scam, just a way to get the Eagle out there in some manner, but mostly a fund raiser to support the annual scholarships. The book itself is mostly vanity, though it may have some use for historical review in a vague way. I doubt many outside Scouting will review it though, at least I have not heard of it being used by recruiters or others. Every year now for the last five or six we get this same question. And we get the same individuals making negative comments while most just note it is real, but not of great use except for the money it raises for the very "useful" scholarship program. You do not have to buy it, but you might want to make sure the info is correct.

Not being the legal guy, I may have simply not seen or understood. But, I think our unit, as Methodist, is part of the final plan with no other action needed by our local entity? What I do not see anywhere is reference to the other claiments that filed to attach to the lawsuit, such as GS of USA and some in process lawsuits? Any clarifications from someone?

Just about twenty minutes ago I got off a short Zoom with two BSA senior staffers, one being Mr. Mosby and the other involved with membership, and two high level Methodist leaders who have been involved with the ongoing challenges with the church and scouting. Most importantly, the Methodist leaders very forcefully states the Methodist Church IS NOT turning their back on Scouting. They see it as a major avenue to reach young people in more positive ways, and feel Scouting has the means. They discussed that we, Methodist units need to immediately update "Membership roles", as opposed to Charter issues. The BSA and UMC have already agreed to extend the Charters through June; but the actual membership needs to be updated in order for legal safeguards to stay in place. The Bishop from the church, and the leader from the United Methodist Men, who is the connection within the larger church for all youth groups, have been working on working out the issues and hope they will not have to have extensions past June. So, this was a direct broadcast on Zoom and will have copies shared with all who attended and others interested within the programs. Please stop with the ongoing noise about the Methodists tossing Scouts out, and so on. However, some individual churches/congregations may choose to do so anyway, but it is NOT the direction of the National Church. One other statement that came from this was that whatever new type of CO arrangement is developed, it will hopefully be viable for other CO's as well, and help with the concerns regarding legal problems and such. If this might be better in the main thread, please move it.

My response is that the jerking around is being done by the whole process and the continuing threats against CO's by some involved in the process, or on its periphery. CO's, especially Methodist, who is the largest now, and always was the one with the most membes outside LDs, just like other CO's cannot afford to just sit back and let the legal hounds continue to prey on them. So, they are working to try for a viable process going forward for their best protection on the legal side. The misconception that all the churches are deep pockets is just that, a misconception. It is much like the ideal that because there are large camps and so on in the BSA network, they can just sell it all. Not true, and many local churches are in serious financial stress due to aging congregations and the changes in spiritual direction of much of the population. Meanwhile, those old church properties continue to serve their communities, often as meeting sites for other non profits and community outreach. If the are sold, due to location or whatever, they end up with no place of their own and often put out other service oriented groups. Few of them could ever again afford to have the sites they now have due to the factors noted about the congregations, as well as simply the out of sight real estate costs in what now are often prime locations in many areas. If we are part of the community, we are connected to it. And every piece that plays a small positive part is important. Money does not make the community. The people and their groups make it with their participation and sharing. Until the majority can see the error of basing almost everything on themselves and monetary "worth" we will continue to sturggle more than we should. Egotism and selfishness never serve us well in the long run.

Just for info; there is a Zoom meeting this afternoon/evening with the National Methodist leader for Scouting and Mr. Mosby. It is only open to listen or give written questions, but hopefully will clarify some things. Charters are now extended through June, but that still leaves a hole with registrations, which is our major concern at this time. The good thing is that there is actually effort being made. Or that is my perspective, anyway.

Now you have made me suffer my tauma of flunking canoeing a number of times due to never mastering the J-stroke. But, I did get sympathy from a row boat full of cute girls on Jenks Lake at old Camp Arataba summer of 1959.. They offered to rescue me while I was swamping my canoe in the middle of the lake before eventually paddling back to shore in my zig-zag pattern that doomed me.🙂 Oh well, I get there; just not in a straight line. That included war canoes on Catalina; though there were others to make up for me.

Yep; that is the issue with this whole thing. Blow it out of perspective and suggest it is rampant all over the country. Just not the case, nor ever has been. Hype, hype, hype and negativity where it really barely exists. And for those few that keep suggesting that means I think the abuse that has happened is okay because it is not rampant. Please keep it to yourself.

Since when is thirty million dollars a small amount?

Similarly, I come back to the utipian idea that each case would be dealt with based on its merits with outside, but unvbiased by money or power of position, and the payouts be, "fair and balanced". Weeding out the grifters and viewing known factors is the fairest and best way, but due to the time frames and simply the changes in society that is almost impossible. All victims, or survivors if that is the better term, should be treated with fairness based on known a verifiable factors. None should be "paid more" just because they have the ability to bring the most pressure or stretch the legal boundaries. Reality is that this "should be" scenario is likely not possible. So, we need to reach the best results possible, while doing whatever is viable to move forward with the best barriers and rules in place and regularly monitored, at all levels. And it should be under constant review and bend to best practices, including those outside the BSA. Of course, until somehow the larger system that allowed these crimes, as well as poor decisions under stress or other outside factors like legal threats and family choices for the time. All of these played, and might, unfortunately play again with the reality of societal interactions. Focus on the protections and vie for the least failue with constant review and vigilance. Then work the program and make it better for the youth and others interacting. No absolutes, but we can get close. We cannot depend on government or even a rebuilt legal system. Ultimately it is on all of us.

Thank you for that comment. I hope that they have already recognized this issue and it is part of "Council" having instructions in this regard. I am speaking with our own council tomorrow and will have additional info. The good thing, fingers crossed, is that the Methodists are still on board to be a CO, just with better protection.

Part of this notes that the registration element is separate from the Charter, and that is supposed to happen still if necessary. Councils should have the details in regard to that; again as per the article.

This just posted in the United Methodist's Men web site. Charters extended through June to allow time to work through the myriad remaining concerns. https://www.umc.org/en/content/united-methodists-extend-bsa-charters-through-june-2022

Sadly, unless a major revamp of the legal system is also made, disreputiel legal people will prey on this as a feeding ground. And, because of our societal perversions, not just sexual, people will respond negatively and loudly against the BSA and other YSO's perhaps. The can of worms will be even larger and less useful in carrying on needed real youth work and growth. Somehow we need, we in the sense of the broader society, to find a way to take the hype and knee jerk condemnation out of anomalous problems, but also realistically react and protect. As I have suggested over and over, the positive of BSA far out strips the negative, but our society focuses on the drama and most salacious and ignores the overwhelming positive. How to combat that is possibly even a bigger challenge.

I have read it, and the it is reprehensible. And that is why the efforts to improve YP should continue. But, it is not the norm, and never has been. Weaning out the worst that prey on others, whether in Scouting or elsewhere is a constant challenge. It is also not an abosolute possibility. Back to the old adage of the baby and the bathwater. But it is your option to refuse to look at the worst as the norm. But, as noted before, I cannot make you get beyond whatever demons push you to ignore the larger and more complete picture. Please just stop painting others with your same negativity.

You seem to be one with one of the broadest brushes and no periperal vision. Many of the ones in your "pervert files" were there for other reasons, as has been noted many time. Reality is that it is a societal problem. I did not say survivors should be overlooked, though I am sure you read that and just choose to ignore it. Your comment about what leadership just indicates to me that you have little or no real grasp of how beneficial overall Scouting has been for the larger society. We are talking about the youths that have stepped up and used their positive scouting experiences to better themselves and the larger communities. Instead of focusing on the small (but real) percentage of problems, we need to take the best parts and magnify them. It is obvious that you prefer to just ignore the preponderance of positive contributions to not just our country, but other countries that have been rendered by Scouting. Hate is almost as bad as abuse, and it does almost, or maybe sometimes more damage. Perhaps you might recognize that. So, please do not belabor your self with accusations and sputtering exagerations. Thank you for your comments; I just wish you could see beyond that cloud of negative and recognize the positive and opportunities that are there with efforts going forward.