shortridge

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

The responsibility for starting a patrol then a troop, rests squarely with the youth. 

I agree, to an extent. But we also need to keep in mind that starting a troop completely from scratch is something most boy Scouts will never ever be asked to do. For the most part, they have an automatic program pipeline from Cubs to Scouts BSA and don’t have to lift a finger to join — whereas we’re telling the girls to be masters of their own destiny and complete a task that plenty of grown men and women have failed at before them.

These first few years of girl Scouts will darn sure be earning their badges, and their tents and packs, and their summer camps, and their flags, and their ribbons and trophies ... They’re going to have to work twice as hard as any of their male counterparts just to get the basics.

I find it instructive to think of the model of the great Scoutmaster Lem Siddons, who stood up in a town meeting and volunteered to get a troop started. Without an adult stepping forward, that troop wouldn’t have gotten off the ground. We can’t put it all on the Scouts’ shoulders.

Can you explain why you think this format requires adult monitoring, when text messages and emails and Facebook Messenger and snaps and Instagram messages between and among Scouts don’t require monitoring?

It will turn out fine. A Scout is Tustworthy, and it sure seems like you’re going above and beyond to make sure your fellow patrol members know that you didn’t do anything wrong. These things happen!

Once you have this issue solved, you might want to make a suggestion to your patrol or the Patrol Leaders’ Council to move to a pay-in-advance system. Everyone chips in a flat fee - like $5-$8-$10 - and the grubmaster goes shopping with that cash. Any extra money can either be spent on luxuries (a bag of chocolate chips, a carton of fresh strawberries), staples (rice, flour, condiments), or given back to the patrol members.

That way, a single Scout doesn’t have to come up with all the money up front and then get reimbursed. Coming up with $60-$80-$100 and then waiting for a check can be a major financial burden for some families. The patrol can still require receipts to doublecheck and make sure nothing got “skimmed.”

First of all, congratulations and good luck!

One idea I heard over the weekend was to rotate PLs on a monthly basis until all the Scouts have done the job. They all get a campout to lead, plan for, etc. Some of them may want nothing more to do with the job; others will have their appetite whetted.

Depending on the size of your troop, you may not need an SPL, especially at first. Consider just having the PLC run the show for a while. The leaders will naturally emerge. Scale up and add ASPL, etc., only as needed. If you only have one patrol, you just need a PL - no SPL necessary.

Consider an interest survey like Venturing uses to find out what they want to do or start with in the first year. I developed one with basic skills topics so they can rank (with language designed to attract their attention and hook ‘em):

______ Build, light, and control fires in the wilderness, and cook over an open flame.

______ Use rope to tie knots and lash poles together for emergency rescues, to build bridges and towers, rig tents and tarps, and create survival shelters.

______ Sharpen and use a knife, axe, hatchet and saw to make a woodcarving, cut down a tree, chop firewood, or clear a backpacking trail.

______ Stop an injured friend from bleeding, fight a heart attack, save someone from choking, and protect other Scouts from sickness caused by heat or cold.

______ Cook hearty meals - including desserts - in the middle of the woods over a campfire, on a tiny backpacking stove, or in a giant cast-iron oven over coals.

______ Find your way out of the forests or marshes with nothing more than the sun or stars; read a map to plan out a multi-day adventure carrying everything you need on your back.

______ Find out which plants and animals can hurt you, and which can help you - and how to tell the difference.

______ Become your family’s disaster expert, making sure they are ready and know how to react if there is a fire, a long power outage, massive flooding, or other emergency.

______ Build your swimming skills so you can rescue someone from drowning with just a rope.

______ Explore new areas by adventuring on the water in a kayak, canoe, rowboat or sailboat, up and down hidden rivers and creeks.

For those of you who’ve served as Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster:

What is your estimate of the amount of time you spent (or currently spend, If in those roles now) on Scouting each week or month?

If you could indicate which role you filled, that would be appreciated.

My back-of-the envelope numbers:

>> There’s the troop meetings - say 2 hours a week.

>> Planning for troop meetings - let’s say another 2 hours a week, to encompass everything from PLC meetings and SPL calls to Lowe’s runs for supplies.

>> One troop committee meeting a month - say 2 hours.

>> One weekend campout a month - roughly two days, not counting any prep.

>> One District Roundtable a month (unless you’re able to delegate) - another 2 hours.

That’s about 66 hours a month if my math is right. It doesn’t count OA weekends, camp Beaver Days, unit fundraisers, service projects, parades or anything else. What else have I missed?

22 minutes ago, WonderBoy said:

(And while faded, I still where the couple of pairs I have left over from 1981.)

I really wish I had treated mine better. Bleach splashes from cleaning at summer camp don’t look that great.

Now if they would just produce some merino wool socks ...

My feet are fairly consistently out of uniform because I am a 100% Darn Tough loyalist. Those socks are simply amazing.

The Webelos requirements do include tracking some fitness items. A single worksheet can be a good tool to help them organize their notes and see progress. But a binder with multiple worksheets? Ugh, no way.

You absolutely can require that the parent attend with their Cub. A direct, straightforward, non-accusatory conversation with the parent will help. “Hey, on the last overnight, Johnny had some moments where he was frustrated. That resulted in him throwing pieces of wood around, which could have hurt another Cub. We are going to need you to attend the next campout with him to keep an eye and make sure this was a one-time thing. For our future reference, there any techniques that you use at home that can help redirect frustrations into constructive behavior?”

The age guidelines actually say: “Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of their parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult.”

(sorry about formatting on the copy/paste job)

What folk ballads or narrative poems have you seen work well at a campfire?

Bonus points if suitable for Cubs! A lot of the ones I’m finding are rather macabre, and I don’t want to get blamed for nightmares.

19 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Do you have evidence this is really happening or are you just catastrophizing? 

See, that’s not the way this works. My girls don’t have to show direct harm in order to get equal treatment. We are all Scouts - not boy Scouts, not girl Scouts, just plain Scouts. The overall decision tells them that they are lesser than the boys, which is the fundamentally frustrating part. But here’s a very basic example:

My local camp has five weeks of Scouts BSA summer camp. Two have been designated as boys-only, leaving just three weeks for girls to choose from - one in June and two in July.

- Boys have the freedom to go to camp any week they choose out of those five. Girls don’t.

- Boys can work their camp schedule around family vacations, trips to the grandparents, child custody arrangements, summer jobs, or summer school. Girls have to fit in their camp plans around the boys’ favored weeks.

- Boys can attend camp with their troop and then return the next week for provisional camp. Girls only have that option once because of how the weeks are split.

- Boys’ troop leadership can pick whatever weeks they want their unit to attend. Girls’ troop leadership has to arrange their schedules around these leftover weeks in order to attend as a troop. That can be difficult for many leaders and parents whose work may not be as forgiving as others.

It’s also fascinating that Cubs aren’t having this discussion. Resident camps and day camps aren’t segregated by gender. Why should Scouts BSA camps be?

This simply should not be an issue in 2019 with a new unified program.

20 minutes ago, Momleader said:

Can’t even imagine what February will be like. 

Very messy! The pros in my area are entirely focused on Cub recruiting right now since that’s what’s in front of them. Zero talk of girls’ troops.

15 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Well, it is something to think about.  I take the Scout Oath seriously.

As do we all.

The framing of your question suggests that church attendance is the default way of doing one’s duty. The spectrum of Scouting experiences means that it’s not. An open-ended question when dealing with Scouts is best.

That still doesn’t answer the “Why,” but I understand that’s the lawyered reply.

Can you address the issue of a female Scout camping with her father that @Eagle94-A1 raised? Thanks!

10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Moderators, please delete @shortridge's insulting reduction of the unisex argument to mere anatomy.

It is demeaning and disrespectful of Americans (Mormons, Muslims, and other sects) who think highly of different gender roles.

That has been updated. Thank you for pointing out my error.

Please don’t put words in my mouth. No, @walk in the woods, I’m saying that Scouts BSA is a unified organization for both boys and girls, and that one should not be prioritized over the other. Scouting is no longer a same-sex organization. If you don’t like that, then you need to make your choice.

Your concern is that your Scouts’ feelings and wants will be negatively impacted if boys are forced to share a survival overnight or a COPE course with a girl. There is no part of the aims or methods or the Oath or Law that includes this value of Scouting.

My concern is that my Scouts’ entire program experience will be negatively impacted (being shunted to less desirable weeks), that their options will be limited (they can’t attend whatever week they choose), and that the overall quality of their Scouting experience will be diminished — because another Scout’s feelings and wants has been granted special status thanks to their outwardly expressed gender.

Feelings don’t trump program. Boys don’t trump girls. Scouts are Scouts.

1 minute ago, Buggie said:

However the girl unit was not allowed to visit anyone because they were girls and those in charge didn't know how to handle that.

I think our program is failing our adults if they don’t know how to welcome Scouts to their campsite. Is there something else to this?

29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Have you seen boys at camp? Ever? It is theirs, for a week,  payed for with their own fundraising. Their own family's investment. Conversely, this is "your girl's" program  for but one week of the summer at one location.

There is no conversely about it. Each Scout should be treated the same. You suggest that the boys’ investment in their week is more important than the girls’. Or that boys should have priority because generations of previous boys paid for the camp infrastructure.

No. That’s not the way it works. Scouts are Scouts. Girls and their troops do not have to earn the right to have a quality program or a seat at the table. Boys do not control camps simply because they were there first.

29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Are you so deluded that you think we can force 10 troops who've demanded a certain unisex comraderie for their boys from their council? How would you block  access to their purchasing power?

It’s simple: Scouts BSA after Feb. 1 will no longer be a unisex organization. A CO can control its youth’s experience to a certain degree with its unit’s program by electing to sponsor only a boys’ troop or only a girls’ troop, but you can’t control the world beyond your doors. If units are demanding that, then they can run their own camps. Scouts BSA does not value one type of troop or Scout over another, and councils need to stick to that fundamental principle. 

29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Are you really afraid that your daughter's and the boys' troops who willingly share camp with her will not have as spirited a week as those troops who choose a  B-O or G-O week? If that's true, then you're making the unisex folk's case.

How are you so deluded as to deliberately misrepresent my point? The issue is not about the spirit of the Scouts who will be at camp during a given week. It’s the fact that one type of Scout has been given veto power over the program schedule and camp opportunities over another type of Scout. Can you not see that that is fundamentally unfair?

We didn’t have this issue when gay Boy Scouts were allowed in. You didn’t see troops demanding “hetero-only” weeks. So why are boys’ troops so darn threatened by the prospect of having to share a Pioneering class or a rifle range with some girls?

Please go talk to some of these female Venturers you know and ask them if they think it’s right that boys should be able to have their pick of weeks at camp, while girls are relegated to the leftovers.

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

Woah, Short, don't drink the bath water!

The message that it sends is that if you come to camp, we'll do our best to make sure you're with guys who are okay with you being in their 'hood.

No, it really doesn’t. It sends the message that some Scouts’ feelings are more important than your Scouting program experience. It sends the message that those other Scouts have the power to exclude you because of their feelings and wants. It sends the message that you are of secondary concern to the people in authority.

Camp is not “their ‘hood,” referring to existing boys’ troops - it’s the ‘hood of all Scouts. No Scouts should have the ability to exclude other Scouts based upon arbitrary factors. It would be the same if during the 1950s an all-white troop said that no black Scouts could attend camp during their weeks.

They are all Scouts. Full stop.

If these all-boys troops that don’t want to associate with girls want to spend the money to buy out the entire camp and have it all to themselves, then go for it. But a Scout Council should not be in the business of favoring one group of Scouts over another by granting special rights. If there are slots open, then any Scout should be able to camp.

Makes me wonder where these councils are going to draw the line. Separate camporees for boys and girls troops? A gender-divided district pinewood derby? New OA lodges to accommodate those troops that would be offended by an Allowat with breasts? A separate Jamboree so boys attending the Summit won’t be distracted from soaring vistas by the presence of girls?

This is Scouting, and these girls will be Scouts. This isn’t America under some gendered version of Plessy v. Ferguson. I think separate troops is a reasonable compromise for now. But don’t mess with my girls’ program and summer camp because others have a problem with their presence. That’s their problem to get over, not my daughter’s problem to accommodate.

7 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Not necessarily.  I have never seen any summer camp that didn't require each unit to have at least two leaders of their own present.  If your interpretation that summer camp itself is the activity, then all you would need is two adults in total on the property, regardless of the number of units.  In closed door situations, always you should not be the only adult that is left alone with a Scout, and that has always been part of youth protection policy.

Can you point to that language in YPT? Perhaps I’m operating under a fundamental misunderstanding. The prohibition is against one-on-one contact, and that’s separate from two-deep leadership. One adult and one Scout is a no. Two adults and one Scout, or one adult and two Scouts - as in your original example - are OK. I’m not seeing anything about this closed-door, 21+ female interpretation. Can you show me where that’s written?

48 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Except is is the troop SM that signs off that a scout is eligible for the vote.  the local Lodge nor National OA has any idea whether the youth actually did it or not.  Do you think an SM is going invalidate his/her own program?

And yet those are the rules, which the SM is fully aware of.

41 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

While a great number of activities at camp happen in the outdoors, not all do.  Two female scouts are working on Mammal Study MB and need to use resources inside the nature cabin- your male staffers cannot be alone with them, you need to have a female 21+ present. 

I think that there is some confusion as to the rules. The rules require a 21+ female leader present at all activities. The activity is summer camp, not the MB class.

Under your interpretation, all classes or instructional sessions involving female Scouts must have a 21+ female leader present. That is simply impossible in a summer camp environment.

15 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So I'll just assume you also ascribe those negative traits to GSUSA which excludes boys at every level. How very unScoutlike of them, right? Or does your door of condemnation swing only one way (against boys)?

I’m not involved in GSUSA, and this thread isn’t in the GSUSA forum. I don’t concern myself with how they run that program. They made a decision that’s best for their organization, and that’s their business.

I *am* involved in the BSA, which is adopting a unified program offering what purports to be equal program and opportunities to members who are girls and members who are boys. Allowing one troop or CO to unilaterally block off program opportunities for another troop or CO is just flatly unfair. I would have the same issue if girls’ troops were blocking boys’ troops from attending.

The message that is sent is that one kind of Scout is more important and has more power than another kind of Scout. That’s wrong, that’s not what Scouting is about, and that’s why I care.

That says it has to meet BSA resident camp standards. Under those standards, the camp director and program director must be National Camp School-certified. If you’re 10 minutes away from EMS, your health officer has to be at least an EMT or paramedic. You have to have an NCS-certified aquatics director if you do aquatics programs. And more ...

That’s a very high bar for a basic Scout troop.

2 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Yes - there are girl-only weeks currently on the calendar at some BSA camps? What bigots those people must be.

Do you mind pointing out where?

@qwazse, I fully understand that the councils are looking at it as a business decision. But it strikes me as fundamentally out of synch with the aims, methods and values of Scouts BSA. The troops are equal; the leaders are equal; the programs are equal; the Scouts are certainly equal. Why not give them all equal opportunity to attend camp? Why grant boys priority status?

That sends a very negative signal to the new Scouts who will be joining beginning Feb. 1. The messages include:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Are those Scoutlike values and messages?

6 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So if a girl-only troop gravitates to a girl-only week at a BSA camp, I supposed that means those girls consider boys to be second class citizens, right?

Does such a thing exist, or are you stuffing a man full of straw?

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

But, if the PLC goes ahead with it, the troop needs to start planning NOW. 

I’m agreeing with Barry on something! 🤨

A thousand times this. It’s a lot more intensive than you’d think.

Also be aware that a unit-run camp does not count for OA eligibility.