shortridge

D'oh! You're right. Sorry, those details bite ya in the butt every time.

But regardless, a 21-year-old couldn't have been an advisor for the two years immediately preceeding his 21st birthday.

The transition *is* a difficult one. But I've witnessed quite a few 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds who've remained active in Scouting precisely because the OA gave them an outlet to do so in a senior leadership level not available to them otherwise. I think it's a good thing, generally.

We had three inductions/service weekends throughout the year - April, June and October-ish. I can't imagine doing seven!

The June weekend traditionally has been held at the larger of the two council camps, with the main service project being set-up of tents en masse so summer staff didn't have to handle that. April was at the smaller of the two camps, and October rotated.

But an interesting note. This year, the lodge turned the traditional June inductions weekeend into a "fellowship" weekend, with no Ordeals, just fun, swimming in the pool, etc. Only 77 people showed up - less than half by far of the usual turnout.

To clarify:

... So the "changes" to NYLT just involve little dangly things for grown-ups?

... And there aren't any changes coming in 2009 to the actual program? For youth?

Give me a break!

Talk about a tempest in a coffee pot.

kahits,

I'm sorry if I'm misreading something, but I'm a bit confused. You say that a 21-year-old was the chapter advisor, and had been for two years. A 21-year-old would be a youth in the OA, and thus unable to serve as an advisor. Chief, yes, advisor, no.

zippy: General best practice in case of a thunderstorm is to pull everyone out of the water - pool or waterfront.

At the summer camp where I worked, we had a storm emergency drill at least once a week, usually on the first full day of camp. But there weren't any buildings with basements, except perhaps the ranger's house, and it's pretty flat territory (no ravines).

Sorry - I should have been a bit more clear.

I'm interested in compiling a history of a Scout camp itself - from founding to modern day.

Does anyone out there have advice or suggestions on how to go about compiling a camp history?

I'm looking at starting a Web site, asking for Council records, going through newspaper clippings, approaching former staff members and generally spreading the word, asking for recollections, photos, songbooks, etc.

But I'm wondering if there are any specific techniques that others have used that have worked well.

I love the idea of the chapter sponsoring a camporee. I wish I'd taken that initiative in my day. But boy, do those three guys have a big task ahead of them!

I'd encourage them to use their time on camp staff this summer to mine other peoples' experiences and advice. They've got one of the biggest and best resource pools right at hand there.

I've been there. I was elected chapter secretary of a largely inactive chapter because I was one of the few youths to show up. I didn't do much myself. A while later, when I got very interested in the OA, I took over as chapter chief. (No election, it was a coup. ;-) )

Sounds like you're on the right track. Rebuilding is slow but rewarding.

You don't say how large the district is, but geography can pose obstacles. My old chapter held its meetings the same night as district meetings to make transportation easier.

Are other chapters in the lodge experiencing similar problems, or have they in the past? Suggest that your son contact other advisors of similarly-sized chapters to get their suggestions.

Leadership: You need to have someone active in that chapter chief role, even if it's just with the understanding that it's a temporary gig, for a few months until you get your numbers up and can have a meaningful chapter election. That person should be the one taking small steps and leading the charge, rather than the advisor.

Recruitment: Find two members who are interested and have flexible schedules and turn them into a traveling election team, hitting every troop in the district. (Tip: Have any members who are homeschoolers? Their parents may be more inclined to let them stay out late on so-called "school nights" attending other troops' functions.)

Retention:

(1) Check with your Lodge secretary and get a list of those inactive members, then contact them directly. Personal letters, with a copy of the Lodge newsletter and event sign-up information, can go a long way toward reconnecting those wayward souls.

(2) Crunch the data. Are these fallouts younger Scouts or older Scouts? From a particular troop? What time of year did they join and complete their Ordeal? What events do they attend (fellowship weekends where the focus is partying or induction weekends where the focus is work)? Those might give you clues on how to approach them.

Program: The most common complaint about the OA - lodge and chapter - is that "They don't DO anything." You've got to fight against the boring-ceremony adult-coffee-klatch trail-clearing stereotype.

(1) If a lot of your troops go to a council camp, talk to the camp staff OA rep about organizing some special events to pique their interest. Go beyond ice cream socials to off-camp canoe treks or survival expeditions for OA members only.

(2) We got people interested in the chapter through a ski trip. Similar special activities in your area can also work - make them something your troops aren't already doing.

(3) Once you've got a close-hold core of interested Arrowmen, develop a chapter specialty - ceremonies, physical arrangements, dance, costumes, kitchen crew, elangomats, nimats - and make that your chapter's "brand." Don't block out folks from other chapters, but make sure your team is dependable and known for their work.

Communications:

(1) Have your chapter chief attend the Roundtable and speak in place of the advisor. An appeal from a youth may have more of an impact.

(2) Get the troop OA reps' names and contact them directly - don't wait for them to contact you. (Also, if the chapter's inactive, how can the troop reps be doing their jobs?)

Anyone made money (or lost money) selling outdoors-type products - pocketknives, homemade firestarters, bandanas, maps, guidebooks, etc.?

Someone mentioned calendars, but has anyone tried those paper placemats?

While it's not a Scout-specific discount, Bass Pro Shops is offering a 3-4-person dome tent for $19.99 (no s/h), valued at $45, through June 30, 2008, or while supplies last.

The brand is Boulder Creek, which I've never heard of - might be a Bass Pro house brand. It's 7x7 with a 50" center height, and weighs 6.03 pounds, according to the advert, so it might not be ideal for backpacking. It also doesn't appear to have a full rainfly. But it sounds like a good deal for families, a Cub pack or a younger Scout troop/patrol starting out and on a tight budget.

There's a one-per-customer limit, so you'd have to split up the orders. Call 800-BASS PRO and juse code L8DJ, or visit www.basspro.com/tent1 (not available in stores).

General advice: Go to the bathroom immediately after dinner, because you won't get a chance for a while during the evening rush hours.

A trading post can't go wrong with ice cream, of any sort.

Order a ton of Hot Sparks (or whatever the equivalent is these days). They're relatively cheap and popular. Fuel-tab stoves (Esbit is one brand) and miscellaneous firestarters also go into that category. Could also offer homemade tinder bags (lint from the staff laundry!) or firestarters.

Have plenty of gimp/craft lace on hand. Ditto for cheap and popular.

Consider selling multitools (not just Leatherman - there are plenty of relatively inexpensive off-brands). Also try selling non-BSA knives that have a lower price point. I can't tell you how many young Scouts' faces I've seen fall when told how much that official-issue logo will cost 'em.

For some reason, collapsible cups were still big sellers when I worked at a TP in the mid-90s. Cub Scouts especially love 'em. I can only hope they've been redeveloped since then and don't leak.

Keep a good stock of emergency "space" blankets, water purification tablets, waterproof matches, small magnifying glasses, signaling mirrors and small first-aid kits on hand for Scouts who want to take Wilderness Survival but forgot certain items.

Discount old camp patches still lying around taking up space. Selling the 1994 summer camp patch for the same price as the 2008 version doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you have room, make a cool display of your "neat" books - the tomes on backpacking, cooking, survival, etc.,- arranged prominently alongside the "neat stuff" - packs, cooking kits, knives, etc. (Synergy!)

Have a large stock of Bjorn's "Be Expert With Map and Compass" books and want to clear them out? Try a package deal - pair the book with a compass and knock a few bucks off the combo price. Ditto for woodcarving and knives, cooking and utensil sets, etc.

Have a bargain bin - "Everything $1.00," or a similarly low price point. Fill it with bubble compasses, whistles, water bottles, thermometers, snakebite kits, etc.

Some TPs have even gone to selling water balloons, slingshots, squirtguns, foam airplanes, etc. - the type of stuff you'd see at a carnival booth, almost. I'll reserve comment on that trend.

However, Nerf footballs and Frisbees would seem to be good sellers.

I've never seen it in action, but it would be pretty neat to encounter a trading post with an "Experienced Gear" section - used packs, knives, sleeping bags, tents, tarps, etc., lightly used and in good condition for reasonable costs. Might be a good experiment to see how well it sells.

Two digressions:

- Has anyone out there who's run a trading post ever sold a dutch oven?

- Any rules or restrictions on certain items (i.e., shaving cream isn't sold to kids with peach fuzz)?

Re: factory issues...

I'm sure this debate has taken place many, many times before, but I'd like to offer my two bits.

Please also consider the pressure by some leaders to have their Scouts passed, or else. That can definitely contribute to a factory atmosphere. If 15- and 16-year-old first-time summer camp instructors worry about getting flack from Scouters, there's a definite motivation there (and not a good one).

Some badges don't take a full week to earn - look at Basketry. On the flip side, there are some badges that just shouldn't be taught at a summer camp - without a prominent caveat at the start that students will be going home with a blue card. Some are just too advanced to get finished in five hour-long periods with a class of 15 Scouts of different skill levels. If you have experienced Scouts, it's different.

I'd include Wilderness Survival and Pioneering among those. Scouts (and Scouters) who come to camp with the expectation they're going to earn those badges just because they show up for class need to have their expectations adjusted. If you have to spend two days on knots because half the class can't tie a bowline, let alone do a good square lashing, you're not going to get a solid, respectable project done by Friday afternoon without cutting some corners.

That said, most of the offerings at a summer camp ARE structured, which makes some sense from the council perspective.

- Paying a staffer to hang out at an outdoor skills area and wait for people to stumble by and ask questions about cooking isn't a good use of resources from a financial standpoint. There's also not much of a "measureable" there compared to the camp up the road that reports that 270 Scouts earned Cooking, 310 Scouts earned Rifle Shooting, 670 Scouts earned their Totin' Chip.

- If you have 50 Scouts show up to the pool, and 10 just want to splash around, 10 need instructional lessons, 10 want to earn Swimming MB, 10 want to learn to snorkel and 10 want to earn BSA Lifeguard, you might have a problem if you only have four lifeguards/instructors. (Forgive me in advance - I don't know the details of Safe Swim Defense. This is only offered as a hypothetical example of how you need to plan for staffing levels.)

These are simplified examples, to be sure, but hopefully the picture comes across clear. I'm not saying I agree with that mindset, but when you're managing a camp of 400+ people, you've got to draw the lines somewhere.

That said.... the question was asked: What can Scouts do outside classes? My answer: Anything they can do on a regular campout, on a much grander scale. The reservation where I camped and later worked is 1,400 acres. Less than a quarter of that property is developed, meaning there are miles and miles of trails to explore - perfect for patrol outings. The camp now offers mountain biking and an inline skating ramp (wouldn't have been my choice, but hey, to each his own), plus an off-camp high adventure boating trek.

I'd also like to have seen a troop take charge of its program - using the resources, facilities and supplies at the main camp to organize its activities instead of being spoon-fed them. Believe me, the staff would think it's great! Troops and patrols can organize unplanned inter-camp competitions (SPL, see your commissioner), set up an impromptu midway to share skills rather than be taught by some higher authority, get gung-ho about campsite inspections, have a gadget competition, go on a survival overnight, ask to sign out canoes during the sailing class and go for a patrol paddle-and-fishing trek... really, the list is endless.

Slightly off topic, but I was interested by John-in-KC's post.

If a prospective employer requires that I complete a certain training or certification - such as Camp School - my first assumption is that the employer pays for that training. That was how my former camp employer handled it when I completed the Scoutcraft Director course at Hawk Mountain.

But is that not common? Did I just get lucky? Do most camps make their directors pay for NCS on their own? And can individuals sign up for NCS on their own, without camp or council sponsorship?

(The exception to my rule above is if the certification is readily available to the general public - such as Red Cross Lifeguard training, CPR, First Aid or LNT Trainer.)

Love the foil dinner idea!

* Instead of just a line of Scouts, consider a saluting "arch," much like sword arches, as the happy couple leaves the church/synagogue/ceremonial location.

* His fiance could present him with a spoof "Listening" MB.

* Miniature lightbulb faux campfires as table centerpieces.

* Poison ivy in the bouquet. (All right, just kidding.)

Here are a few program ideas from my days on the staff of a Cub resident camp:

* Cardboard castles. We had a never-ending supply of Sysco, etc., corrugated boxes that leaders cut and kids flattened out, taped up and drew/painted on to make a gigantic castle. Each den that visited the area added on and made their own contribution. If it rained, we propped it up the best we could and tore it down between program weeks so the next group could start anew.

* Graffiti. Get a big piece of spare fencing - tall, with no holes between the fenceposts - paint it white, then prop it up and give the Cubs paint of all colors. They'll have a blast. Plus it looks like a castle.

* Popsicle-stick castles. A handicrafts type of activity that never gets old. Display pictures of castles for ideas (David Macaulay's book, Castle, is an excellent resource) and make sure your handicrafts staff is energetic and excited so you're not just handing the kids a bunch of pieces of wood and tubes of glue for busy work. Even the littlest Cubs know when the program's lousy, and they'll let their parents know in the loudest possible terms. Some dens built really elaborate constructs and then chose to burn them at the closing campfire; others took them home and displayed them.

* Costumes. Give each kid the opportunity to make some sort of costume piece - milk jug helmets, cardboard swords & shields, "chainmail" out of six-pack rings, etc. (A great chance to teach a basic recycling lesson!) Make sure your staff dresses up, too.

* Set up a running storyline. Have King Arthur visit and parade around with his knights - not necessarily the camp director, but a staffer who's a good actor and can stay in character. You say Excalibur has gone missing? Well, then he needs the Cubs' help to search for it! etc. etc.

* Look at the requirements. Use the lessons of chivalry to teach community and civic responsibility - compare knights to firefighters, policemen, etc. Talk about how knights were always ready to ride out, and Cubs need to be prepared in other ways by knowing first aid, stop-drop-and-roll, tie in sportsmanship and fitness, etc. Keep it going with a steady, entertaining patter and keep it active - don't let them sit down for very long. If you get boring, you lose the kids.

* Coats of arms. Don't get too deep into the extremely complicated rules of heraldry, but you can do a lot with tracing paper and photocopied examples. There's a company called Dover that puts out a lot of activity-style books, including one with tons of heraldric symbols. Have the Cubs pick out their favorites and make a coat of arms.

* Ask your staffers and volunteers for special skills to keep the theme alive all the time. Any jugglers? Clap a jouncy hat on their head and they're a walk-around juggler. Someone play an acoustic guitar? They can be a traveling minstrel.

With regard to another suggestion, I'd be careful about teaching too much about herbs and plants and things unless you have a professional environmental educator who sticks to the basics. Kids can easily confuse something helpful or edible for something harmful, and don't always listen to the cautionary tales.

One final bit of advice: Since your theme is knights/middle ages/etc., establish and enforce a very firm and clear NO SWORDFIGHTING rule at the outset. Otherwise you'll end up with some thwacked heads or worse.

A question for everyone out there, professionals and volunteers alike: What advice would you give to a former Scout considering a career in the 'pro' ranks?

I'm not looking for advice on how to do a good job vis-a-vis volunteers and Scouts - that seems to have been covered many times in other threads - but in other words: What questions should they ask of themselves? What sacrifices should they be prepared to make? Is it possible to have no fundraising experience and do a good job as an entry-level DE? Is it possible to have a personal and family life and do a good job? Assuming good job performance, is it possible to stay in one district for several years for family stability, or do good DEs get bumped up and out quickly?

Just what kind of "pattern" are you referring to? Are you making an accusation?

[[ EDITED: I just found the old threads, sorry. Never mind. Don't mean to rehash. ]]

ANY incident like this is "unfortunate," to put it extremely mildly. My prayers and thoughts go out to the boy's family and friends.

Hug your own children, or grandchildren, or nieces and nephews, close every day.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Interesting concept - staff splitting time between program and service areas. Does anyone know if this is a common practice?

In the mid-90s, when I worked on program staff at Henson Scout Reservation/Camp Nanticoke in Maryland, program staff worked in program areas and service staff worked in service areas. Since we split our summer between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, there was some reshuffling of program staff for Cubs - younger instructors and CITs became "program specialists" paired with Cub packs.

It seems like the program/service split is a very smart way for camps to fill the service positions, which are often the last glamorous. (Who wants to scrub pots and be a cash register jockey when you could be lighting campfires, tossing ring buoys or climbing walls?)

The experience, if shared by most senior staffers who've risen through the ranks, could be a good bonding one, though - "Remember when we spilled the hot sauce into that vat of eggs-in-a-bag?"

Well, I started out this post not liking the sound of that particular way of doing things, but now it sounds kind of good!

Dan from Delaware

Sorry if this is off-topic... I attended NCS for Scoutcraft/Outdoor Skills at Hawk Mountain, Pa., back in 1998. At the end of the summer, knowing I wouldn't be able to come back next year, I gave my green binder full of goodies to the camp for general reference use.

I'm now looking to return to Scouting as a Scouter (after a hiatus to finish college and start a family and career), and am trying to brush up on my rusty skills. There was a ton of stuff in the NCS Scoutcraft binder that I'm now kicking myself for giving up, and I'm wondering if anyone out there knows of a way to get my hands on another copy - older, newer, doesn't matter. Or is distribution strictly controlled?

Thanks in advance!

Dan in Delaware

Full-time job: Daddy.

To pay the bills: Newspaper reporter.

For what it's worth...

After a youth "career" in Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting and five years of working on camp staff, I'm really glad that I have a daughter who'll start out wearing a (really cute) blue tunic as a Girl Scout Daisy. Simple and straightforward and - hopefully - durable.

We adults can generally keep a single uniform intact and in good shape with care for many years. But parents are looking at multiple growth spurts throughout the teenage years, and thus multiple uniforms. They daren't even start to think about what happens if their boy (gasp!) tears or spills something on the precious Class A. It really does add up.

I put it into perspective by thinking of the "stuff" that's really at the core of the Scouting program - the tents and tarps, backpacks, water bottles, cook sets, hiking sticks, ropes, pocketknives. With some creativity, ingenuity and know-how, you can make or scrounge a lot of that stuff yourself for very cheaply - $100-$250. Compare that to the one-time cost of a new shirt, set of switchback pants and belt - about $70. Which is a better investment?

As a Scout, my first troop was all-uniform. My second, which had a much higher proportion of families closer to the poverty line, was waist-up. Both did a pretty equal amount of camping and outdoor activities. When the latter unit went to district camporees and the council jamboree, most troops looked about the same. It isn't about the quantity of the uniform - it's about the quality of the program.

When I worked on a council camp staff, the BSA abolished the official tan activity shorts that we wore for our daily Class B uniform (shorts + staff shirt). Instead of going to the Class A greens, we ordered tan shorts from L.L. Bean (and they lasted a heck of a lot longer than the ones from National Supply). Bottom line: We all dressed alike. It was good enough for those of us wearing the silver epaulets - at least for the summer - so why not for the rank-and-file Scouts whose parents are pinching their pennies and deciding between gas, food and the rent?

(Besides, when you're out backpacking and hiking and canoeing and swimming and fishing and birdwatching and climbing and cooking over a tiny stove and fording streams and building trails and hauling water and chopping wood, there's no room in your pack for a Class A anyway. For troops and patrols that meet outdoors - and why not? - the only times the full monty should be worn is for parades and other ceremonial and official occasions. It's not the focus of the program, despite what those Man Scouts with rows of knots going over their shoulder and down their backsides think. It's one part.)

Sorry about the length and the rant. Kind of hit a nerve of this old Life Scout.

Dan Shortridge

Delaware