shortridge

Thanks, everyone! This is the list of “stuff” that I’ve come up with. Not all of it needs to be available on Day One, but within the first year. Have I missed anything big?

Tents
Tarps
Rope
Cooler
Storage bins
Stoves
Fuel
Cook pots
Cook pans
Utensils
Campfire grate
Dutch Oven
Firewood
Fire Buckets
First Aid Kit
Bow Saw
Axe
Hand Axe
Lashing Staves
Troop Flag
American Flag
Patrol Flag Materials
Flagpoles
Flag Belts
Summer Camp Deposit

I used to hold my OA flap on with two small safety pins. Done properly, you can’t see a thing.

Barry, I think we can end this particular line of discussion and agree to disagree on the meaning of “data.” For you it means life experiences; for me it means facts and statistics.

I’m still not seeing anything except some inartful phrasing on Bryan’s part to suggest that anything beyond Cubs is going to have a family-camping focus. The core Scouts BSA program is not changing. Besides: Most teens I know would rather lock themselves in their room for a year than go on “scheduled fun family time” with their parents and siblings.

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

one was from his sister who was heaping praise on her brother for being such a good father.  The two were still "living in sin" under her parents' roof.

Was I the only one who read this and initially had an image of the Lannisters pop to mind?

1 hour ago, danielhenry12 said:

Sorry to hear that, but we all know that climbing is very risky sport and therefore it becomes  mandatory for all climbers to take all  safety precautions while going for  climbing. How could trainers allow children to climb without any safety kits. Its very disappointing.

With respect, you’re jumping to conclusions and condemning people when the information available at this point simply doesn’t bear that out. We have no idea about the circumstances, training, supervision or equipment used.

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

Our troop doesn't have tents. So, I can't tell you when to make those purchases for those new webelos.

That’s a model I’ve heard of but not seen in action. Do your Scouts all own and bring their own tents?

28 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Poly tarps are cheap and make great shelters. Buddies learn to pitch them as enclosed shelters, or open. 

Tents are the biggest-pricetag item, for sure. I’ve been looking at DIY tarp options, but the psychological factor of a first camping trip in February with “just a tarp” may be a lot to overcome. Thanks for the other comments!

21 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

While at the same time, they have demanded empirical data from the other side and dismissed years of personal experiences as unsupportable fantasy. 

JoeBob, since you’re clearly talking about me I’m going to respond. Barry cited data in support of his argument that girls are oriented differently. I’m asking for his sources. That’s all.

So you’re starting a new troop - boys’, girls’, or Martians’, it doesn’t matter. Can we talk about the nuts and bolts of startup unit budgeting?

- What line items do you need to have in your first few years’ worth of budget plans?How do you cover equipment, training, camping costs, awards and recognitions, space rental ...? 

- What costs do your troop dues cover vs. fundraising vs. direct fees (eg weekend camping costs & summer camp)?

- How did you go from having $0 in the bank to buying patrol camping gear and heading out on the first campout? What was that initial process like & where did the money come from?

- How did you scale up as you added Scouts? For example, if you had a troop of 12 Scouts and had 6 tents donated by the CO, how did you purchase the 2 new tents for the four Webelos who joined at crossover?

Thanks!

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Considering that none of the ceremonies at NOAC had  Arrowman in Native American regalia, and I believe the national chief and vice-chief didn't wear their bonnets either, would be one sign of things to come.

You said that the OA was “removing the Native American motif” and had “become just a service club,” past tense. I’m still seeing no evidence for that. 

Honestly, I’ve never been to NOAC, know very few people who have, and don’t see NOAC as representative of how the OA program is implemented at lodges around the country. Nor is regalia the driving element behind the broader themes and principles of the Order.

41 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Who saves articles, publications, records lectures and videos over the years just to save proofs for shortridges 30 or 40 years in the future? Then there are life experiences of our children, after school group activities, church youth groups, youth sports, and so on.

Can you point to even one study or data set that supports your belief?

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you want current data, or data from something I did a few years back? If it's current data, I am going to need a lot more time to do the research. If it is a paper I did in Grad School, give me some time to find it.

Whatever actual data you have proving Barry’s claim would be great, thanks.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Nope, it’s not a new revelation. Data was acquired over years of life. 

So you’re not talking about actual data, but anecdotal personal experience?

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Generalized data is the difference between success and failure. Most Fortune 500 companies don’t make a move without the support of generalized data.

Can you share your data which says that girls are instinctively micro-oriented, etc.?

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The instinctive nature of prepubescent girls is details and micro organization. Organization part of Patrol method is easy for them. 

LOL. I see you have never met my daughter!

Broad, sweeping generalizations like this help no one and are ultimately not constructive.

3 hours ago, sst3rd said:

Add to this the OA removing the Native American motif, and has now become just a service club, I'm pretty much done with the scout program.

Aside from the AOL ceremony issue, what’s your evidence that this has happened?

6 hours ago, sst3rd said:

I asked the scoutmaster what are the plans for when the girl scouts are ready for the troop. She says there are no plans she's aware of. She wants the troop to remain boys only as does the other troop leaders and parents. I suggested strongly that they have a plan.

They will have to start their own girls’ troop - it’s that simple. The existing troop will remain boys only because that’s how Scouts BSA works. They don’t have the option of taking in the girls when the leave Webelos. There could be a linked girls’ troop, but that’s not the same as what you’re discussing.

25 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

they are just not registered for their own reasons. Maybe it is the stick and not the carrot approach being used?

In order to understand the pushback,  you need to listen to adults and possibly re-evaluate.   

I’m listening. What are those reasons? Genuinely curious here.

If registration is a financial issue, that I understand. Perhaps the unit can cover those. But objecting to taking training on some kind of grand principle? I don’t get it.

My teenage daughter took YPT this summer to staff Cub day camp. It was a pain, but she persisted. She also understood the reason why. If she can do it, why not a parent of an active Scout?

It’s ~$33 and one hour of time. Fourteen-year-old summer camp CITs have to do the training. Why all the bellyaching?

But let’s flip it around and present it constructively. Wouldn’t you like to know that all the Scouting volunteers outside of the troop that your Scout comes in contact with - running camporee activities, teaching merit badges, timing the district PWD, leading service crews on OA weekends, operating stations at the chariot race, cooking at a Cub family weekend - are all registered, screened and trained to keep our Scouts safe at the most basic level?

59 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

30 scouts is a medium-sized troop. A large troop is over 50, a small troop under 15. 

Depends entirely on your local area. 30 would be a large troop in my neck of the woods.

edited: Just checked for accuracy. My district has six troops with under 16 Scouts (three of which are just single-patrol sized), two in the 20s, one in the 30s, one in the 40s, and one in the 50s. The average troop size is 22 Scouts.

7 minutes ago, MattR said:

You could easily use the forum titled "Girl Scouting"

Except that’s an entirely different program.

37 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

If this is really the rule, then I think National has sailed right off the deep end.  

It’s more what you’d call “guidelines” than an actual rule.

https://scoutingwire.org/marketing-and-membership-hub/social-media/social-media-guidelines/

46 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The policy as written certainly has quite a few holes.  For example - if we cannot have a closed group what about things like email distribution lists which by design are closed systems.

According to the horribly written guidelines that Richard linked, we are apparently not supposed to even use email at all:

”Any Scout units that plan to use social media should share the following Internet safety guidelines with Scouts, parents, and leaders, and all Scouts should abide by the following Internet safety guidelines and personal protection rules:

• Keep online conversations with everyone in public places, not in email.”

Is your objection that

(a) Scouts should not have premarital sex,

or

(b) that Scouts should use protection?

If you’re doing a 4-12 and can get up OK on Saturday, consider helping with special programs and events - Cub family weekends, PWDs, chariot races, Klondikes, camporees. They all would welcome somebody to run an activity / station for a day or serve on kitchen crew.

Training also likely has a place for you with  Saturday courses - SM Specific, YPT, den chief, LNT awareness, maybe helping with an IOLS or BALOO module. Maybe offer a special Saturday/Sunday afternoon course package designed just for second-shifters? You’re not the only one out there!

If you’re a member of the OA, I guarantee you they won’t turn someone down who shows up mid-morning or midday Saturday and wants to join a work crew.

Also: Merit badge counselor.

1 minute ago, packsaddle said:

RichardB, Wow I almost forgot. This is off topic I know but is Dave Steele still around someplace? I kinda miss him.

• LAST VISITED

  September 21, 2007

8 minutes ago, RichardB said:

The private online situation should cause pause, and does not meet Scouting's Barriers to Abuse.  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

Richard, I respect that you hang out here and take the abuse.

But give me a goshdarn break!

We cannot police all online, digital or social media contact among our Scouts. That is simply an impossible task. Even the attorneys in your shop have got to recognize that.

We cannot force Scouts to let us in to their private Instagram conversations, copy us on text messages, or friend us on Snapchat - all arenas for a “private online situation.” If we approached their parents asking us to let us do such a thing, we’d be laughed out of town. This is happening in school, on sports teams, in church groups ... that’s how youth these days communicate. It’s not nefarious.

The same thing that you fear is happening on these platforms - bullying and abuse - could be taking place in person in conversations among patrol members on hikes and campouts. They could be happening in in-person meetings of this very same PLC when the Scoutmaster steps out of the room to take a call or go to the bathroom. We don’t require Scouts to have all conversations within earshot of a registered and YPT-trained adult over 21.

Now, all that said: Would it be a best practice to have the SM included in the PLC group just as a silent observer to keep tabs on things? Perhaps, yes. But as a program resource, not a hall monitor.

Dont fear technology. Teach them to use it properly, set limits, and model Scoutlike behavior. That’s all we can do.