shortridge

Huh?

Consistency, a willingness to enforce the rules, and peer enforcement will get results every time. If a boy's patrolmates shake their heads at the Scout who wants to bring along a bunch of soda and candy bars, he'll stop the next time. If the Parent education is another component, to be sure, and it sounds like your parents haven't been educated about how Scouting works. It's difficult with first-year Scouts, especially those who've come up from Webelos recently. The transition is a challenge. But the parents need to know the expectations of the patrols. Perhaps invite them to a meeting on troop programs and procedures run by the PLC, so they both get the message and see that the boys are in charge. Thanks for the clarification on the AC's future role. But if you did a shakedown before leaving, why did the boys not know if they had sunblock?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Solution: Do pre-trip shakedowns. Make expectations and rules crystal clear. Let everyone know that junk food, sodas and electronics are not permitted. Then give the PLs authority to enforce. Simple. (And not to distract, but this is one of my pet peeves ... the advancement chair should have nothing to do with camping rules ... the PLs should be giving those reminders, if needed.)

You lose the ability to warm water bottles, tomorrow's clothes, etc., at your feet ...

No, it's not, but it's still unprofessional. Comes across as complaining and even whining. A far cry from the positive attitude staffers are supposed to present to campers.

When I worked staff back in the day, leaders were in charge of their units, particularly in their campsites. We were program resources and instructors, and visitors/guests in the site. The exception was the staffer assigned to each pack/camp den, known as a program specialist / cowpoke / squire / first mate, depending on camp theme. That person came pretty close to living with their den, leading them from place to place, singing songs, organizing games, carrying water cups in a backpack, helping them navigate camp rules, etc. We realized that most Cub parents had never done this before, and in many cases were utterly untrained in the ways of Scouting, if the DL or CM was unable to attend. Perhaps the units in question had previously attended a camp like that. That said, I'd consider that type of chatter and gossip unprofessional. Staffers aren't supposed to tell stories about other units like that. It'd be like your doctor complaining about his previous patient. Just isn't done.

When were we trained to distinguish between predatory and non-predatory uses or displays of pornography? Did I miss that somewhere?

I didn't join a "values program." I joined Scouting. If we can go five minutes without mindless blather about values - an empty word on its own - I would appreciate it.

It's a different kind of help. Working with a kid who has all the right equipment and goes to a top school and never has to worry about money and needs an attitude adjustment is a different challenge from working with a kid who carries his gear in a trash bag and whose school stinks of mold and roaches and whose parents work multiple jobs to get enough to eat and needs a genuine opportunity from someone willing to guide without judging. The great thing about Scouting is it can be an equalizer. Like with a great many of your writings, Callooh, I wonder if this was spurred by an actual situation, or if you're just stirring the pot with an extreme hypothetical.

Most camps do tours, not in-site visits, because new campers need to know their way around. It's also a camp standard (77): "An opening-day exploration tour of the program areas and central facilities is conducted for all troops. A map of camp is provided that includes central facilities, program areas, campsites, and locations of any hazardous or off-limits areas."

I will add this to the recent comments: Unless camps become more friendly to staff families, the pool of experienced, mature adult instructors and directors is going to continue to shrink. There are plenty of teachers who would love to work at a Scout camp teaching their hobbies and interest during the summer - but once they get married and have a family, they're not going to embrace the idea of living on site, away from their family the whole summer, and working 7a-9p. At some camps, friendliness may indeed involve staff family quarters and participation for kids in some programs. I happen to believe camps should be more open to hiring 8-5 or 9-5 staffers.

When I worked camp staff, units had designated / staggered check-in times to avoid those stackup problems. I don't think a single unit ever paid attention. Check-in days were always havoc.

Starting to drink the day it gets hot doesn't cut it. If you're not prepping your body by hydrating consistently in the days leading up to the heat/exertion, you may very well go down.

This appears to be another of those odd unanimous situations! 5year, you said early on that your COR disagrees with the SM on this issue. That's your trump card. This may not be a hill worth dying over, but it's also not something the CO should ignore. If the COR sees the problem here, he or she should reach out in two directions: first to the SM, to gently and firmly inform him such practices are to stop; and secondly, to the CD and SE, expressing disappointment that the camp allowed such a thing to take place. There is a time and a place for family camping. Neither is at a Boy Scout camp during a Boy Scout summer camp program. We do not run a family vacation service.

There is a simple policy: No. Cub camp is for Cubs. Boy Scout camp is for Boy Scouts. Family camping is not part of the Boy Scout program. End of discussion. You don't need BSA literature to back you up. Just go with what's best for the boys in the troop. Frankly, I'm very surprised the camp allowed the younger brother to attend at all.

Unless you're located in an extremely small town, live in a very isolated rural area, your CO has very strict membership requirements or your two boys have no male friends their age, it's fairly easy to find five boys. All you need is three more. Tap your CO's members, too. Consider that one of the primary methods of Scouting is patrols, usually of 6-8 boys. It doesn't seem too unreasonable to ask for a committment of at least a patrol's worth of boys before you can get going. That guarantees that the troop isn't just a club for two families interested in getting access to resources.

You may be surprised by the number of parents who don't bother to have basic smelly/unsmelly conversations with their kids, and what a difference it can make. You're right that hygiene isn't in a boy's vocabulary, which is why parents need to put it there. We wouldn't send our kids off to camp without the knowledge that teeth-brushing prevents bad breath and is vital to good health, yet when it comes to taking showers and changing clothea after a hard day of swimming and shooting and climbing and cooking and sweating like crazy, that convo often doesn't happen. I know I had to be told to get some deodorant when my body started to mature.

Here's a kid's perspective. I went through this as a Cub and young Boy Scout. There was one troop and one pack in town, both chartered to the same CO. Enter some sort of schism between two groups of adults, and a new troop was born, chartered to a different CO. My parents - DLs in the pack - were among the organizers of the troop. There was never any question which troop I was going to join. Sitting in a corner of the church basement, reading my stack of books and waiting for a pack leaders' meeting to end, I witnessed a very loud, very acrimonious argument between the different factions. It all left me with a bad taste in my mouth toward the people yelling at my parents. I also liked the new troop's SM, who took me under his wing and lent me some of his old Boys' Life issues - the really awesome ones, with John Christopher's Tripod novels serialized, so cool! - and told me about how he ate snakes in the Army. I also got an education in other areas. Listening in on meetings and kitchen-table discussions - it's amazing how easily adults forget you're there if you stick your nose in a book and don't make a peep - I became probably the only kid my age who knew what a District Executive was. The new troop was sharp and had pizzazz (red berets! brand-new tents!), young and dynamic. But it didn't make it to the five-year mark. After two years in Troop Y, I knew it was on its way out. The SPL's position was a rotating popularity contest, campouts became boring and unchallenging, and the new SM had no charisma. I wanted to continue in Scouting, and realized it wasn't going to happen there. So I packed up and went to Troop X for a visit. The leaders welcomed me with open arms, and I finished out my Scouting career there. Troop Y's leadership was disappointed, and I'm sure my SM mentor thought it betrayal. But I wanted to continue doing real Scouting, and the startup troop wasn't cutting it. It's funny, but I never really knew what sparked the split in the first place. From that perspective, I say: If it's avoidable, avoid it. These splits are almost never for the kids, and almost always for the adults, despite the spin and rhetoric.

This really comes down to basic personal hygiene. Parents, talk to your kids - especially the young ones - before they go off to summer camp. Have a heart-to-heart talk about basic cleanliness and stinkiness. Leaders, make sure your Scouts know what to expect in the way of bathing facilities, and explain the practical importance of changing into clean clothes (especially underclothes) every day. There are many, many reasons why kids don't shower and change clothes at camp - personal modesty and not wanting to do the group shower thing being numero uno. But we wouldn't put up with our kids being smelly and stinky at home, would we? Teachers might even put in a call to child protective services if a boy shows up day to school after day without evidence of bathing or wearing the same dirty clothes. So why is it ok at camp? It's not like they're on the trail. When facilities are available, we should be using them. Sure, I was as bashful and embarrassed as everyone else my first few summers. I hated going into those open-air cinderblock shower houses. But when one can sweat through a shirt in three minutes while standing still in the shade, showers and laundry are a necessity. So please, have that conversation, and incorporate it into your SM's Minute. For the sake of all our collective nostrils, we thank you.

My point is not that Scouting doesn't have any of the administratrivia, but that it takes a comparatively longer time for a boy to get into the core of Scouting than it does to play a sport or dance or act. They can get someone involved almost right away; we put roadblocks in the way in the form of interminable meetings. The fun and adventure - what's important to the boys - is delayed.

If the cards ask for the same information now as today, it stands to reason they'd be fine.

Provo camp is definitely an option, but don't count on your adults getting to go for free. Most camps have their Provo leadership already selected. Part of your problem undoubtedly arises from the stovepipe systems in a council. District officials don't speak for camp directors, and vice versa. Three weeks before summer camp is generally far too late to be adding a new unit to the camp roster, unless it's a week with lots of openings. That's fairly rare in my experience. Setting up a new campsite for a "troop" of four people may be seen as a waste of time for the camp, no offense. I'm very surprised they didn't suggest partnering you with a larger troop in camp that week. Agree with others that recruiting must be your focus. Two families does not make a troop. Doesn't even make a patrol. You're going to die before you're born unless you get boys involved really quickly. Set up some campouts and hikes in August and get some of your sons' friends involved stat!

Is the phrase "Drink until U P clear" still an operative one? Water, water, water all the way.

A lot of the angst could be solved by banning camps from working on requirements. Just the fun, please...

It's not just your speech. Very easy to mess that up when you inadvertently add an S - "Who has their Firem'nschit?" I think it ought to be renamed and the faux-folksy m'n taken out. "Fire Safety Card" works well enough.