Sentinel947

2 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Sentinel:  Yes.  18 is the end of youth programming.  There was no mistaking what was said.  I think that it probably goes to focusing the organization on fewer things and doing them well. 

I was an active OA member and Explorer in the 70s-80s (back when Exploring was the "Venturing" program of the time).  I don't think the change will gut either program. 

Venturing membership is imploding for reasons I am not entirely aware of.  Freshman/sophomore Girls in my Troop want to earn Eagle and be Scouts.  They are not particularly drawn to Venturing.  I think the losses in Venturing are a function of professional and council volunteer time being sucked-away by all of the tough dealings we have been having.  The teen program has never been a strong part of the BSA -- the exception being Exploring in the 50's and again from the mid 70's through mid 80's. 

OA folks who are over 18 are pretty-much acting in adult roles except for the chiefs above the council level -- and many of them are college aged.  Frankly, those above-council youth structures will probably be downsized (no sections/areas/regions any more) because they are expensive to operate and require robust regional program volunteers and staff -- which will no longer exist.  Probably a national Chief/Vice Chief and a few others to represent whatever structure they coe up with the be between the council and national.  OA folks will be encouraged to become active in their Councils, which will be larger and offer a more-sophisticated leadership challenge for the chapter/lodge chiefs.   

I suppose that makes sense. Although I think it will also hit NYLT pretty hard. Any idea when these changes will be communicated?

The BSA already struggles to utilize and retain young adults in Scouting. I do not have any optimism that Councils will come up with roles suitable for these young adults, or use/treat them appropriately. More likely, this is a group of young adults we will lose, and I can only hope they'll return when they have their own kids. @Eagle94-A1 what do you think? 

After this rule change, given that these 18-20 year old's do not count as acceptable supervision for a Troop program, the only thing I can see them doing in the normal council is summer camp staff. 

My other concern and hopefully the details will be less alarming: "We will become intensively more outdoor in program emphasis.  There will be complete emphasis on "outdoor fun" and a backing-away from "character building".  The program since it's inception has always been about "character building." Outdoors skills, experiences and fun have always been a way we achieve that. Hopefully this will be more of thematic/marketing shift. 

8 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

They stated that everyone will be "adult" at 18, so I think OA is included in that.  

 

Did they say why they are making this change? It's likely going to gut Venturing and the OA. These over 18-21 are already registered as adults and have taken YPT. I don't see what the issue is having them as they are currently. 

16 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

So Atlanta Area has advised (and this is a summary) for the Scouts camps - 

• Don't know what's coming
• Focused on safe program
• Changing food (cook or delivery to site)
• Cope and Climbing may not offer
• No whitewater rafting
• Aquatics is difficult
• Shooting sport are difficult

Seems like not much to be offered

Seriously, why offer camp at that point?

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Not sure … I think the fact that Covid is a declared pandemic present in our community and the others are not would play a factor.  

Our ASM asked the lawyer friend as the ASM started to get a bit concerned about personal liability when another parent, lawyer, asked what would be our plan if someone got sick and we were sued.  We thought we would be safe from lawsuits by attending a council camp.  The lawyer said he wouldn't care … his answer was basically sue everyone and see what sticks.  In the end, we decided to still look at going to a council camp and emphasize to parents that there is no guarantees and we will do our best.  We also discussed some additional permission slip to reduce our legal liability (I know those don't work well).

The bigger impact the conversation had was on us putting on our own camp in the middle of a pandemic.  If we could follow the ACA guidance then perhaps … but we know there would probably be gaps that then could open us up the real legal fallout (and also put scouts at risk).  Perhaps other areas would have lower legal risk, but our town seems to be lawsuit happy.

Interesting. What responsibility does a parent have for their own child if they send them someplace knowing that the coronavirus is out there and a danger? Can I sue the grocery store if I get coronavirus there? If I had kids, and I took them to the grocery store and they got sick, can I sue the store? (Assuming I can prove it?) At what point are we responsible for ourselves and our families? We all know the virus is out there, and it's a risk, and anybody who can promise 100% safety from it is a liar. If 100% safety from the virus is the standard, then nothing is opening until there is a vaccine. We aren't holding other activities or businesses to that standard. 

I can see if it's something negligent and someone gets harmed, like a structure collapse, or a fire, or even a food borne illness. 

That being said, it's just too early, and while we are in this early phase of the pandemic, Scout Camp is a luxury that just doesn't need to happen. Hopefully by next Summer, vaccine or not, we'll be able to have summer camps again. 

 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Note … after reading this 82 page document, there is no way our Troop will be willing to take on putting up our own summer camp.  We were initially talking about this option, but it is a no go now.  If our summer camp is cancelled or if there are not enough families interested, we will cancel this year.  

We talked with a lawyer friend about this issue… he said that if his kid ended up with Covid-19 from a camp, he would sue the Troop leaders, charter org, council and national and let the courts figure out who pays what.  It will be tough enough for council camps to comply with all 82 pages … I know our Troop will not be able to without a council camp structure.

Would your lawyer friend sue if their kid got bronchitis or the flu from camp? If camp opened against health codes, or violated established codes, I could see a lawsuit. Otherwise, being able to sue people because I got an illness from them sounds ridiculous (although I am not a lawyer.) How would they prove the kid got COVID at camp and didn't have it asymptomatically before camp?  

Personally, I think camp and HA should be cancelled, but the liability piece is fascinating. 

Summer residence camps in Dan Beard Council (Cincinnati, Ohio) were cancelled. There will be some sort of day camp option announced in the next few weeks. 

Camp Friedlander in Cincinnati Ohio will be announcing their summer plans on Monday. 

15 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Im Cub Scouts so this would work well for us.    

Agreed. I'm not sure what @David CO's comment about primitive camping meant. I've taken a number of Scout crews backpacking, and there was no potable water or restrooms. It is primitive. We used hand sanitizer and biodegradable dish soap. For cub groups, given that they aren't backpacking, even in a primitive campground (no potable water), it'd be possible to use a handwashing station like @5thGenTexan's. 

I'm not sure what the issue is. For trailer type camping I love the set up @5thGenTexan posted. If it's backpacking, at least on my trips, everybody brings a small bottle of hand sanitizer. Use it before eating or after using the cat hole. 

23 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

66%?  I suppose it's possible to believe 66% of the residents of NYC are liars is an explanation.  Another is that the stay at home orders are a farce.

I don't believe that 66% are intentionally lying. People's reporting of their own events are notoriously unreliable in a medical setting... "How'd you get this injury?" "How many alcoholic beverages do you drink in a typical week?" "Do you have thoughts about self-harm?"

Much depends how the question is asked. "Have you been following the stay at home order?" Answer "Yes.". Reality: They have to go to the grocery store, they go outside for exercise and pass their neighbors doing the same. They visit with family members they do not live with, they visit with neighbors they don't live with... they go to public parks. (Especially in NYC.) Do all members of the household follow the stay at home order? What kind of activities outside the home do they get involved in? I see a lot of kids outside at the basketball court near me, while it's possible they are 10 siblings, I find that unlikely. Many people mean to be following the stay at home orders, but all the exceptions are opportunities to be infected or spread the infection. Now with states reopening businesses, the orders are even more confusing to follow. In my state, next week outdoor spaces for restaurants can reopen. Does the Governor want me to stay at my house or patronize these reopening restaurants? 

@yknot's point is well put. There is a variability to living conditions in various areas that makes following a stay at home order difficult. As a suburbanite, I have storage space for food, and a car to transport it that many in NYC may not have. I also don't have a spouse or kids, making my trips to the grocery store less frequent. 

If we're being totally honest with ourselves, very few people are completely and totally following the stay at home orders in their entirety. I know I've broken the stay at home order a few times. Most of it was for selfish social reasons. I did the best I could to minimize risk to myself and others, and I've won the gamble. Other people have not won their own gambles. Thankfully, nobody I know has been diagnosed or hospitalized. 

Stay at home orders are an attempt to deal with what could be an overwhelming health crisis. Only time will tell if it was an overreaction. There will be some case studies to look at how countries have handled this: Sweden vs their neighbors, Taiwan, Korea, China, Italy. At least in my state, the stay at home order has worked, even with mixed compliance. It bought the hospitals the time they needed to get their supplies in place. It gave cities in my state time to plan and create additional care facilities. Hopefully by the end of the month we'll have a decent amount of tests here. By the end of June, we'll know more if the re-openings are premature, or if the lock downs were unnecessary. 

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-coronavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html

People would never lie to their doctors/health providers about their compliance with medical advice/the law! Would they? 😄

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

For camping, I'd fully align with council direction.  I'd fear beyond normal personal liability if my troop camped while our council cancels their own.  I'd only support unit camping if the council explicitly says units can resume their own camping. 

It's not just personal liability.  We are talking real risk.  Plus, I'd be tormented forever if I was the leader that ends up with sick kids and sick adults after being told the council is canceling their own camps.

Not only that, but most campgrounds are reopening under the requirement that the groups are less than 10 people, and that all campers are from the same family/household. 

16 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Hope it is not a sweetheart deal.

It has to be... how do you sell something if nobody knows it's for sale?

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

He (Kiko) also noted that the event is an absolute auction, during which each section of Stigwandish will be sold the highest bidder. There will be no required minimum bids set for the parcels to be sold.

As of April 29, no advertisements for the Camp Stigwandish auction have been placed in The News-Herald. The event also did not appear in the Upcoming Auctions section of Kiko’s website.

Basically a fire sale.... Sold at any price. They must already have a prospective buyer lined up... 

3 hours ago, MattR said:

My council doesn't mention the virus on its website. However, if you read the state and county sites it's hard to imagine how they can operate a camp. Well, it would all be fine except for doing any events or eating.

My guess is my council is desperate and have been doing a lot of rationalization.

Seems to me there's an opportunity here for scouting. Ten people can do something together. That's a patrol and two adults. Think of the possibilities. This could be the most fun summer ever.

 

Only if the wilderness areas and campgrounds open up. Many of them have been closed because of the mobs of people who were flooding into them with nothing else to do. 

2 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

2 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was thinking today... I really wish National would make the unpopular call to cancel all camps for this Summer.  Let us start small and get back to having meetings first, preferably outside and by Den or Patrol.  Let us camp on our own this Summer and stay away from other people.  I know it sucks for people counting on the big shebangs, but that is just the way it has to be sometimes.

Yea, that's a tough call. Has some big impacts on a range of people. Probably in the next week or two they'll need to make that decision. @RememberSchiff had a great post, that I'm going to shamelessly turn into a Scoutmaster minute if I needed.

This would not be the first time in the history of Scouting that there has been a disease outbreak that closed camps. 

2 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

1.  Leadership training is boring.  It shouldn't be but it is.  Sitting on a picnic bench on nice day and being lectured to is deadly, especially to the youth. 

4.  Despite the hoopla, most people will never be leaders.  At least not in the manner presented in our leadership training.  And that's okay.  Not everyone wants to be a leader.  There will always be a place in scouting for that First Class scout who will never make Eagle, even though his buddies are pushing toward that goal.  Yet this scout is often the dutch oven dessert expert, or a great instructor in other scout skills, and the kids look up to him/her nonetheless.  There are adult equivalents as well.  The troop treasurer, the 3rd string ASM...these folks will never get the recognition they deserve, but their long-term commitment and superb performance keep units going.

Solution:  Drop the powerpoint death marches, and the inane icebreaker/non-scout-skill-team building events ("who can build the tallest structure with 12 pieces of spaghetti, string and marshmallow?") and take a page from Scouting's past.  Scouts learned to be leaders by actually leading.  When they mastered the art and science of fire building, and then taught new scouts how to build a fire, they were leading but didn't realize it.  The old "game with a purpose."  And it's a heck of a lot more enjoyable than sitting in the classroom, too.

 

I'll bite on this one. I'm making an assumption that you are referring to NYLT. I can't speak for other councils other than my own, and I'm definitely biased. I went to NYLT as a Scout, and have been on staff as an adult. This summer would be the third summer, but I doubt we're going to have any courses. The program isn't feasible with social distancing, even if we were allowed. As an assistant Scoutmaster, I've seen the effect of NYLT on my Scouts. As a fresh out of high school ASM, I used many of the skills I learned at NYLT to help my newer to Scouting scoutmaster team build a better vision for the patrol method and youth leadership in our Troop. NYLT was the first place as a Scout that I saw a functioning patrol method. It planted the seeds for me of what Scouting was supposed to be. My childhood troop had patrols, but we didn't really use them. We used them even less as the old guard of troop leaders from the 90's retired and the next generation took over.

I'm going to mostly defend NYLT. Both NYLT and Wood Badge are not supposed to be outdoors skills courses. It's expected that Scouts or (adults) have already received those skills in their rank advancement or adult leader training. It's also expected that Scouts have been practicing positions of responsibility in their Troops, and that would likely include teaching other scouts how to make campfires. If a troop program is deficient in these areas, making NYLT a week of outdoors skills practice wouldn't likely fix it much anyways. Most Troops struggle with outdoor skills because they don't get outside enough, and they don't do activities that require them to use their skills, or they take the easy way out (line guy out clips, pop up tents, lighter fluid on campfires.) 

When I was in high school band, my director had a saying, "There is no boring music, just boring musicians." NYLT and Wood Badge are much the same way. If you have an unprepared and boring staff, then the course would be boring. If the staff is more interested in them having a good time, than the participants having a good time, then it will be a terrible experience. Look no further than Summer camp, which when done wrong can take swimming, shooting, and a week in the woods, and somehow make it boring and tedious. 

That's not to say the NYLT program couldn't use a rewrite. (I believe that is in the works.) It's mostly the same that it was over 10 years ago when I went as a participant.  I'd love to see a little less corporate management type stuff, and a more about helping Scouts execute a better program back home. Like Wood Badge, I can't help if other Councils program sucks, or if their staffs are full of self-important types, but I do know that Scouting in my council and in my Troop would be significantly weaker without my council's NYLT program.  In my council its well attended, and even Scouts that initially don't want to go typically enjoy it and recommend it to others. I've seen stalled out Scouts, bored of the advancement grind, become re- energized for Scouting because of NYLT, including myself when I was a youth. Some of the youth on my staff's found in NYLT a place where many core aspects of Scouting were truly practiced (Youth leadership, patrol method, outdoors, that wasn't in their own units. Even more, they finally felt like they were being challenged and allowed to meet those challenges without undue interference from adults. Even an activity totally unrelated to Scouting skills, like the marshmallow-spaghetti challenge, help teach and reinforce leadership concepts from the course. The course still includes usage of backpacking stoves, realistic first aid, lashing skills, pioneering projects and an overnight outpost. Using Scouting skills to help teach and reinforce leadership.

I do wholeheartedly agree that leadership comes in a variety of forms, and it's not only the titled leader up front that matters. Being a good team member can often be its own subtle form of leadership. The world doesn't need (nor can it support) everybody being the stereotypical leader. It needs all sorts of players to make things work. 

Elitts, are you pointing to a specific BSA posting somewhere, or just the GTSS requirement of two adults at scouting events being applied to online settings? 

Good topic @Eagledad I think the aims and methods are mostly fine as they are. I agree adding leadership development is unnecessary, but here we are. In some ways the aims and methods are a marketing document as well as a statement of organizational goals. 

I liked @DuctTape's comment and I don't have a ton to add to it. 

The methods are how we achieve the aims. This creates a very simple litmus test for us. (And maybe I'm underthinking this.) "Does what we are about to do with this method accomplish our aims and how?" For example, creating online merit badge clinics, and packing them full of Scouts, and signing them all off for the badge.... Does that develop character, or leadership? Does it help develop good citizens? Does it improve their personal fitness? If the answer is no, or only kind of, then how can we change our course to be an emphatic yes? 

Whether or not we consider advancement to be a goal or a method, it should always be kept in context of our aims. "Does the way we are doing advancement help us achieve our aims?" 

2 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Our Council recently had virtual Key 3 fireside meetings.  One of the questions was why did our Council wait 3 weeks to develop any virtual MB events.  Central Florida Council was cited by our SE as an example of why they put thought into it and didn't rush it along, and why they put limits on our council sessions of 15 Scouts.  

There are plenty folks involved in this program who can't see the forest for the trees.

50 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Camps have closed for the summer due to swine flu or polio and have come back the next summer.

Total infections and deaths were far fewer than covid-19,  but children were more susceptible to polio though adults would contract it too.  Some kids spent years in iron lungs, the ventilators of back in the day. A few used leg braces or wheelchairs for life. 

The threat lasted for decades before vaccines were developed.  Some of us grey beards have a round polio vaccination scar, the mark of vaccination, on our upper left arm.

Summer camps,  beaches,  pools, and movie theaters  (popular due to AC)  were closed.

1921:  Some believe FDR contracted polio at a Boy Scout camp (Bear Mountain NY).  A week later he was stricken at Campobello. His camp visit had been as chairman of the Greater New York Committee of the Boy Scouts.

1935: first National Scout Jamboree delayed two years (1937) due to polio.

1943: Lone Tree Scout Camp (MA) which had been dedicated in 1929 was sold, some think for fear of spreading polio.

Sept, 1943: All Utah unit meetings suspended because of polio outbreak.

1945: No summer camping at  Ma-Ka-Ja-Wan  (Wisconsin had a serious polio outbreak in 1944). Camp resumed in 1946.

1950: Polio scare closes Camp Perry.

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/03/16/polio-epidemic-covid-19-coronavirus

https://neic.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Don-Martin-Written-History-092316.pdf

We need another Dr. Jonas Salk and Dr. Albert Sabin.

My $0.02,

Great research! Thanks for sharing!