SemperParatus

Woodworking (4,5,6) Metalwork (3,5) Electricity (11) Drafting (2) Painting (3,4) Agree with EIKY'mon that sometimes things should be done because they need/want to be done.

Welcome aboard and good luck as Committee Chair. I am sure you will do just fine.

Welcome to the forum. Ed is right. IMO, it is not so much about age, but attitude. What your post does not seem to address is any sense of reflection or remorse from the boy about his recent actions. Based on your conversations with him, has he demonstrated any sense of shame, or sorrow for threatening a teacher or fighting in school? Or does he only feel bad about the consequences he suffered? If its all just a big joke to him, then he needs help and pinning an Eagle badge on his chest will not help and will also be a joke. He needs to be able to reconcile his recent actions with the Scout Law, reflect on the conflict between the two in his life, seek a way to make amends beyond serving his suspension time (perhaps through personal apologies to the teacher, other student), show that he has learned from the experience and is serious about trying to follow the ideals of the Scout Law. Good luck.

My all-time favorite scouting cartoon... http://members.tripod.com/~BFarns/grimtoon.gif or try http://members.tripod.com/~BFarns/index-humor.html and click on Pinocchio (This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

I really miss that sanforizing stuff.

BW, YPT does not cover the nuances of the BSA's Congressional charter, which is the subject of the recent discussion. If that is what you are teaching in YPT courses then I would seriously suggest you refresh yourself on the training content. The Congressional Charter states that the BSA's purpose is "to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves...". The Congressional Charter does not mandate the use of the CO concept, that idea is a pure creation of your own imagination. The CO concept is BSA procedure, not a requirement of the BSA's federal charter.

acco, Here is a list... http://dmoz.org/Regional/North_America/United_States/Society_and_Culture/Organizations/Congressionally_Chartered/ http://www.google.com/Top/Regional/North_America/United_States/Society_and_Culture/Organizations/Congressionally_Chartered/ (This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

OGE, See Accepted box http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf I guess 'Accepted' is the same as 'Approval' since the Annual Charter Agreement states that the council "shares in the approval of leaders."

Has anyone ever seen historical data on the total acreage controlled by BSA and councils?

BW, Thank you. Yes, I have seen the material you referenced, but that is BSA (not Congressional) literature. When I read the Congressional Charter it only states in 'cooperation with other agencies'. Now, I suppose the last part of Section 23 'using the methods which were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916' could possibly place some restriction that the CO concept is mandated by Congress, but only on the basis that the CO concept is a deemed to be a 'method' that was in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916. Of course, relying on this clause would pose additional problems in that the BSA could be precluded from ever adopting different 'methods' than those that may have existed on said date.

BW, Section 23 of the Congressional Charter states "The purpose of the corporation [bSA] shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them..." How does the open-ended language 'cooperation with other agencies' translate to the restrictive 'the BSA can only deliver the program through other organizations'? Isn't the CO concept a BSA mandate, not a Congressional one? As always, your extensive knowledge and kind reply is sincerely appreciated. **** The BSA National Charter [uS Code, Title 36, Chapter 2] June 15, 1916 21. Corporation created. Colin H. Livingstone and Ernest P. Bicknell, of Washington, District of Columbia; Benjamin L. Dulaney, of Bristol, Tennessee; Milton A. McRae, of Detroit, Michigan; David Starr Jordan, of Berkeley, California; F. L. Seely, of Asheville, North Carolina; A. Stamford White, of Chicago, Illinois; Daniel Carter Beard, of Flushing, New York; George D. Pratt, of Brooklyn, New York; Franklin C. Hoyt, Jeremiah W. Jenks, Charles P. Neill, Frank Presbrey, Edgar M. Robinson, Mortimer L. Schiff, and James E. West, of New York, New York; G. Barrett Rich, junior, of Buffalo, New York; Robert Garrett, of Baltimore, Maryland; John Sherman Hoyt, of Norwalk, Connecticut; Charles C. Jackson, of Boston, Massachusetts; John H. Nicholson, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; William D. Murray, of Plainfield, New Jersey; and George D. Porter, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, their associates and successors, are created a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia, where its domicile shall be. 22. Name and powers of corporation. The name of the corporation created by this chapter shall be ''Boy Scouts of America'', and by that name it shall have perpetual succession, with power to sue and be sued in courts of law and equity within the jurisdiction of the United States; to hold such real and personal estate as shall be necessary for corporate purposes, and to receive real and personal property by gift, devise, or bequest; to adopt a seal, and the same to alter and destroy at pleasure; to have offices and conduct its business and affairs within and without the District of Columbia and in the several States and Territories of the United States; to make and adopt by-laws, rules, and regulations not inconsistent with the laws of the United States of America, or any State thereof, and generally to do all such acts and things (including the establishment of regulations for the election of associates and successors) as may be necessary to carry into effect the provisions of this chapter and promote the purposes of said corporation. 23. Purposes of corporation. The purpose of the corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which were in common use by Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916. 24. Acquisition of assets and liabilities of existing corporation; Said corporation may acquire, by way of gift, all the assets of the existing national organization of Boy Scouts, a corporation under the laws of the District of Columbia, and defray and provide for any debts or liabilities to the discharge of which said assets shall be applicable; but said corporation shall have no power to issue certificates of stock or to declare or pay dividends, its object and purposes being solely of a benevolent character and not for pecuniary profit to its members. 25. Executive board; powers. The governing body of the said Boy Scouts of America shall consist of an executive board composed of citizens of the United States. The number, qualifications, and terms of office of members of the executive board shall be prescribed by the by-laws. The persons mentioned in section 21 of this title shall constitute the first executive board and shall serve until their successors are elected and have qualified. Vacancies in the executive board shall be filled by a majority vote of the remaining members thereof. The bylaws may prescribe the number of members of the executive board necessary to constitute a quorum of the board, which number may be less than a majority of the whole number of the board. The executive board shall have power to make and to amend the bylaws, and, by a two-thirds vote of the whole board at a meeting called for this purpose, may authorize and cause to be executed mortgages and liens upon the property of the corporation. The executive board may, by resolution passed by a majority of the whole board, designate three or more of their number to constitute an executive or governing committee, of which a majority shall constitute a quorum, which committee, to the extent provided in said resolution or in the bylaws of the corporation, shall have and exercise the powers of the executive board in the management of the business affairs of the corporation, and may have power to authorize the seal of the corporation to be affixed to all papers which may require it. The executive board, by the affirmative vote of a majority of the whole board, may appoint any other standing committees, and such standing committees shall have and may exercise such powers as shall be conferred or authorized by the bylaws. With the consent in writing and pursuant to an affirmative vote of a majority of the members of said corporation, the executive board shall have authority to dispose in any manner of the whole property of the corporation. 26. Annual and special meetings; quorum. An annual meeting of the incorporators, their associates and successors, shall be held once in every year after the year of incorporation, at such time and place as shall be prescribed in the bylaws, when the annual reports of the officers and executive board shall be presented and members of the executive board elected for the ensuing year. Special meetings of the corporation may be called upon such notice as may be prescribed in the bylaws. The number of members which shall constitute a quorum at any annual or special meeting shall be prescribed in the bylaws. The members and executive board shall have power to hold their meetings and keep the seal, books, documents, and papers of the corporation within or without the District of Columbia. 27. Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words or phrases. The corporation shall have the sole and exclusive right to have and to use, in carrying out its purposes, all emblems and badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases now or heretofore used by the Boy Scouts of America in carrying out its program, it being distinctly and definitely understood, however, that nothing in this chapter shall interfere or conflict with established or vested rights. 28. Annual report. On or before the 1st day of April of each year the said Boy Scouts of America shall make and transmit to Congress a report of its proceedings for the year ending December 31 preceding. 29. Reservation of right to amend or repeal chapter. Congress shall have the right to repeal, alter, or amend this chapter at any time.

Aaron, Welcome, we are glad you are here. I know your post seems innocent enough, but I am afraid you are about to get a big lesson in correct BSA terminology and we can only hope that the uniform factions on this forum do not commence beating each other about the head and shoulder region with their epaulets. In our troop, we generally wear the field shirt and pants/shorts (class A) to every meeting. That was a decision that the PLC made years ago. IMO, it should be the boys' (re PLC) decision, after their due consideration. If a boy shows up in 'street clothes', it is really no big deal - doesn't happen too often. Again, welcome and stay awhile.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

Okay, okay...it was 6 feet. Gosh...nothing gets past you guys.

"Based on my observations, demographics is the single biggest factor that influences a packs success." Why is it that your pack should be considered a success? Because it is big? If a competing pack with a fun and exciting program were started in your neighborhood tomorrow, I would expect your unit would hear a giant sucking sound as kids/families bolted out the door.

I'm 5'9". My pool is 6" deep at the far end. Today, I jumped in feet first as demonstrated in the handbook with the notion that I would not touch bottom before leveling off. I was able to do so. What's the problem?

SP, More so as something that Troop's could consider. I really think it would work best as a reasoned, intentional act of unit leadership based on its specific circumstances. SP

Thanks for your thoughts on my proposal, which I meant purely as a supplement to CNYS' brainstorming... I guess my thinking is that a spin-off is not quite like a start-up. The old troop can provide some seed money (many large troops have a small war chest built up) and equipment donation, loaning, sharing to minimize the financial burden on the pioneers. The new troop comes out of the gate at full speed (after associating with a CO)...it has trained leaders with recent experience in running a quality program, it has a sizable contingent of young men at different ages/ranks with scouting/leadership experience, it has parents that understand the program, it has a support structure of people committed to its success (the old troop), it has some seed money from the old troop. In short, it is a fully functioning, BSA-modeled troop from the get go, capable of reaching more boys quicker than a pure start-up. In my perfect-little world, both the old and the new troop would continue to grow and spin-off more units. Of course, I know there are many areas where the population does not support large multiple units. However, most large urban/suburban areas can. This would be a way of passing on the 'good genes' of successful units. Is it hard to say goodbye to great scouts and scouters that have been a part of the unit for a couple of years? Absolutely. It really needs to be on a volunteer basis, but by sending out our best we can all be part of strengthening the BSA in our area and the country. As far as egos, I guess that is totally dependent upon the folks involved. It could certainly get in the way in the case of scout leaders that are focused purely on increasing their numbers. I think most experienced leaders will admit that at some point the law of diminshing returns does kick in. I suppose the spin-off concept can work for those that define their program based on quality rather than quantity. Its been my experience that units that focus on quality, let the quantity take care of itself. When the quantity can support a spin-off (60-80-100 scouts whatever the number is), why not further share the quality component with the community. In the end, quality units will eventually increase and muscle-out the poor units. Of course, turnover of leaders can have dramatic effects but I suppose it all boils down to mentoring our future leaders.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

Didn't the Supreme Court state in Torcaso v Watkins (1961), Footnote 11 that secular humanism is a religion? Is not secular humanism a form of atheism? http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=367&invol=488

After meeting with your Patrol Leaders and Scoutmaster (and having solicited ideas from the scouts in your troop), what do you have so far?

Just to add another log on the fire for thought... In my other spare time, I am involved as part of a church planting team. Over the past five years, our home church has planted three new congregations, all within a 15 mile radius. With the most recent church plant, we opened the doors with a congregation in excess of 600 families. Our church has experienced phenomenal growth over the past two decades and we have home-grown outstanding leaders that have easily transitioned to the role of Senior Pastor and other roles in our new churches. The best way to spread the gospel is to create new churches. It is painful when a portion of our leadership and congregants are called to be a part of the foundation for a new church, but it is oh so rewarding to watch as folks accept and meet the challenges before them and become a big part of such a meaningful endeavor. Most new scout units are formed because someone either cannot find one that meets their needs, or because a personality clash between adults results in a splintering of factions. In either case, the impetus is in many cases negative. I am wondering if scouting would be better served, if large successful units that are adherents to the BSA model spun off new units as their numbers grow, populating them with adult leaders that are experienced, trained and dedicated to keeping the scouting promise, and scouts of all ages that can be a core nucleus for the new unit. Initially, the new unit would be small, but its programming would attract new scouts and eventually, its growth could likewise birth another unit as well...and so on down the line. In my mind, the best way to spread scouting is to start new units. The best new units are those whose leaders and scouts have experience with successful units. The troop that I serve will no doubt be hitting 100 scouts in a few more years. We have an incredibly talented group of assistant scoutmasters, anyone of whom could easily step into the role of scoutmaster. Wouldn't it be cool to spin-off a new troop of 20 or so scouts, in a postive fashion, to spread scouting's message and reach. It would be painful to see some scouts and leaders join in a pioneering effort to form a new troop, but incredibly satisfying for the new unit members and the old unit in supporting such an expansion. Just a thought.

It really is great. But don't forget to keep momma happy. Cause if momma not happy then your not happy and if your not happy then the scouts ain't happy and if the scouts ain't happy then the unit suffers and if the unit suffers then the BSA is weakened and if the BSA is weakened then the moral fabric of the nation declines and if the moral fabric of the nation declines the commies will take over and if the commies take over then we will all end up eating bad potato soup...so keep momma happy!

Good story...great reminder...thanks.

Right on! You did pick him up, didn't you?

Our CO sponsors both a Pack and Troop with the same number. I guess the 'farm team' analogy is one way of looking at it. We definitely have a special relationship. The boy scouts are very involved with the pack...helping with special events (B&G, PWD, Halloween Party, etc etc), providing den chief assistance, appearing at pack and den meetings when called on (and sometimes just showing up for fun). The pack/troop leaders get together periodically to synch calendars and goings on, sharing resources, ideas and figuring out ways to create opportunities for the cubs to get some sense of boy scouting and the boy scouts to act as role models. As a result, we have an almost exclusive relationship. The troop reserves a spot for all pack webelos to crossover, and we probably get 95% or better of the crossovers (some going to other troops because of siblings in another troop). Consequently, we never recruit at the boy scout level - although arguably we have greater time invested in ensuring that we support the pack program as much as possible. While this may be a 'district' startup (whatever that is), the fact that your CO is involved as the sponsor means you should have legitimate interests in the program. Call your COR and offer your services to help in the getting-started process. Maybe have an ASM join you in this to act as the troop's continuing pack liaison. There may be parents in your troop (with younger children) that would be interested in getting in on the ground floor of a new pack and act as pack/den leaders. You would not be out of line. In fact, you will likely be the only one in line.

I've never been in the Coast Guard...although I do like their uniforms (and motto) and have visited the New London academy. I've never been in the Coat Guard either...although I did have my Members Only jacket stolen in 1983.