SeattlePioneer

> I tend to agree. However, let's face it --- that version of the advancement program went away when Scout Camps began engineering easy, efficient ways to get advancement requirements signed off. Scout camps tend to be the prime offenders on that except for things like swimming, which camps tend to take seriously.

> I'm a good observer of such things. I see the boys and parents working together, by and large. The parents and Scout have to decide on a design for the car, which usually involves using a saw to cut off some chunks of wood. The parents tend to help decide how much to cut, and the Scout may need some help doing some of the sawing. Most of the time I see that partnership working. Some of the time the Scouts need help with the sawing or something else, and they look for another parent to provide some guidance and help as needed. No tantrums. Having done this three times, these are no tears PWD. The Scouts generally do the things they can, and they choose who they want to race against, and they may race twenty times or so in an hour or hour and a half. Most of the parents get that the idea is for the boy to do as much as they can. I have more trouble with parents horning in to flip pancakes at our overnight camp breakfast. Parents don't put cars on the track. The Scouts either decide who they want to race against or they race against whatever Scouts are at the front of the line when they get there. The Scouts are the ones lining up to race, not the parents. > We make building the cars a partnership between the parent and Scout. The parents supervise the use of tools by the Scout and may help with some sawing and such when the Scouts find that too much. The norm that is established is for the boys to do as much as they can. If I see a parent taking over, I discourage that. I'm sensitive to the issues you raise, but I just don't see it as much of a problem. FAR better than the adult dominated, hyper competitive Pinewood Derbies I see all too often. All too often in thosde kinds of races the Scout has to check in his car two or three days before the race and he doesn't touch it again. Adults decide which cars will race and put the cars on the track and such. My PWD model is designed to avoid those kinds of issues, and I think it does it quite well. Like a lot of things though, we probably ought to change up the style lest it become too predictable, which it probably has. In four years of Cub Scouts, I've used up my good ideas. Time to move on, really, and let the new parents who are the program decide what to do.

Hello Baden P, There are certainly a variety of ways to conduct a PWD. You describe a method you are happy with and I have a method that works for me. The method I describe is competitive for boys. They compete to see how many stickers they can get for their Pinewood Derby Racing License, and that is age appropriate competition for most boys below Webelos age. And any of the Scouts who want sharper competition are welcome to attend the district PWD, which is a lot more competitive and has trophies as prizes. We keep Dads busy helping boys make their cars as needed, then running the races,m awarding stickers and such. Parents attending our Committee meetings have been uniformly supportive of this method. In my view, most Tiger Cub, Wold and Bear Cubs just want to race as many times as possible against their buddies especially or anyone else who has a car. They want a method to keep score too, which the stickers provide. I use this model for the PWD and just used it for our fall recruiting night, where new families came in, made a stomp bottle rocket with their boy and then watched the boys launch their rockets. Boys whose rocket goes the farthest each time get a sticker for their Rocket Pilot License. I might add that we don't recognize the boy who gets the most stickers. Scouts are free to count up their own stickers and they can compare that number with others if they wish. After a while I look for boys with no stickers and encourage them to race against each other. It's a format I continue to like a lot. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Jblake, You are dropped the day your two year YPT training expires, not at the end of the recharter. But neither that person nor anyone in your unit is notified of that fact, so people will routinely continue to serve despite being dropped. That's my point, really. Dropping someone often just means that BSA isn't collecting it's dues money. Often they will continue to serve in their unit as a leader, registered or not. And really, does it make sense to drop someone as a leader who has jumped through all of BSAs hoops but whose YPT training expired after two years? What that often means is that some troop leader has to make repeated contacts with someone to persuade them to take the training and turn in a certificate. Is the benefit really worth the burden? There are several pack leaders in my who took YPT training two years ago when they registered as leaders. I've already e-mailed them once reminding them of the need to take this training again. No response. Would it be wise for the pack to suspend the Committee Chair, Cubmaster and Den Leaders over this as soon as the YPT expires? A year ago I couldn't get into parts of MyScouting.org to use certain features. When I reported this to the District Executive, he TOOK HIS TIME to investigate the reason and discovered I was no longer a registered Scouter because the YPT had expired. It seems like an e-mail reminder would be a good practice rather than just suspending someone's membership.

I took all the training for Scoutmaster including IOLS in 2004 although I had been an AS in 1981 and Scoutmaster from 1982-1987. It was a useful review, and the IOLS course in particular gave good examples of how to teach the varying Scout skills and the current recommended methods for various Scout skills. In particular, I had always ridiculed the "contact method" of cutting kindling as "the way lawyers would chop wood." When I actually tried it, I found it a good method and a lot safer and more controlled way to split kindling than the wilder axe swinging methods I was used to using. Also, the IOLS program I took had an excellent example of a ceremony that gave me a much better understanding of the power of a ceremony and methods for making ceremonies impressive and a valuable experience. While IOLS is burdensome, I recommend it even for those with good outdoor skills. Would I kick an existing SM or AS out of the program for failing to take it? No, but I would recommend it. I just did!(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

I'd start by looking at what BSA and your council already has as program. For example, there is the "Climb On Safely" program that provides a basic introduction to a few climbing skills that would provide a guide to some of what you discuss: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Resources/ClimbOnSafely.aspx My council has one or more of these training programs per year. You might consider getting certified in the skill and helping with the program. Your council probably has districts that do IOLS training, which includes a segment on knife and axe use and fire building. Being a student there and then offering to be an instructor might be worth considering. For a number of years my council had a day of training in Dutch Oven Cooking designed to train adults in the skill. It was a popular program, with a couple of dozen troops having teams of leaders perform as instructors. These might be examples of how you might structure programs of the kind you describe. Your district might be a good place to float a training program. Attend a district Committee meeting and talk with the district leaders about your ideas and see what you can work out.

Hello Two Cub, Refuse a boy summer camp because he doesn't have the health form A WEEK IN ADVANCE? That's unreasonably severe, in my opinion. Refuse a Scout a ride to camp without his health form in hand? That's a lot more reasonable, as described by sbemis1. One is an arbitrary deadline --- the other is dealing with reality. I would have no objection to setting the arbitrary deadline to get people going and getting the form in hand. But if a Scout had the form in hand when it came time to leave for camp, would you really refuse him?

Hello Sentinel947,

I've dealt with a number of home schooled youths. Generally speaking I find their achievements and deportment to be much above that of public school students. In particular, I'm thinking of a Webelos Scout who is home schooled. His father was Cubmaster for two years, and is an insurance salesman. Two years ago the Scout won first place in the council popcorn sale, selling $6500 in popcorn. Last year he came in second place with $13,000 in popcorn sales. The boys and his father spent a lot of time together selling popcorn. The boy is a very personable kid and a model of good and respectful behavior. There are parents of every stripe and variety who spoil their children in one way or another. I think you just found one of them. But I don't find that to be common among home schooled children at least in my experience.

I am delighted to hear that Deaf Scouter and IM Kathy frequently used craft projects using trade type skills and projects with practical results. As I noted earlier, that's a lot less common among female Scout leaders than among male Scout leaders in my experience. Males and females often tend to have different interests and skills. If that seems hard to believe, compare the number of boys and girls attending ballet classes as children. And furthermore, from what I observe, all too often fathers are comparatively isolated from raising their sons compared with the roles mothers play --- even leaving aside the single parent mother raising children. In the four years I've spent rebuilding a Cub Pack, every Den Leader, Assistant Den Leader and Cubmaster has been male. I think Dads have seen other men leading the program and figured they have "permission" to use Scouting as a way to interact with their sons and other boys as well. I've certainly heard a number of Moms comment that they would like to have men as role models for their fatherless boys. Deny those realities all you wish under the theory that men and women are the same. Just isn't true in my experience.

If families choose to not join Scouts or to drop out of Scouting for ANY reason, I fully support that right and liberty. It's a part of our freedom to associate with those groups and people that we find congenial and desirable. I find it rather amusing that people who object to BSAs freedom of association take their own very seriously.

> Exactly the same thing that happens when the trained, registered Treasurer walks off with the $$$. > So Sentinel947, that means you are willing to do the rechartering and nag people repeatedly to update their YPT and to complete the training and paperwork needed to register people as leaders? Will you be doing the rechartering and nagging for your unit this year? I'm perfectly willing to have someone else do that task this year, it just isn't going to be me. In the past I've made a point of registering all our adult leaders, but that has become too burdensome a task for me to do. I suspect that it will be an unreasonably burdensome task for a significant percentage of units. BSA and councils are creating rules that units aren't going to follow. Complain about that all you wish, but it's a predictable result of implementing these policies.

> Too severe a consequence for a common human failing, in my opinion. Unfortunately, one of the facts of life for leaders is that it can be necessary to nag and remind people of things that need to be done. If you aren't willing to do that, expect to lose a significant part of your membership from your program. Deaf Scouter attempted to do that by designing and supplying a notebook as an aid to people maintaining their own records. That attempt largely failed when people didn't utilize this aid. He made another effort in that direction by making duplicate copies of the form so he wouldn't be reliant on Scouts and parents. He took the additional step of finding another leader to take charge of this responsibility this year. Those all sound like worthy leadership efforts, although ones that perhaps really belonged to the Senior Patrol Leader or Committee Chair to sort out.

Sounds like it might be a case of Scoutmaster burn out. Does your troop have other people helping out, or is he likely to be feeling trapped in the job with no one to turn to, lean on or take over.

Hello Joe Bob, > The IOLS class is designed to be an INTRODUCTION to BOY SCOUT skills. I think it does that for knife, axe and firebuilding pretty well. It was also a good example of how to teach those skills to a group, which was good. So my comment stands. You are talking about different issues, in my view.

I'm expecting that a lot of Assistant Scoutmasters will be registered as Committee Members to avoid IOLS training. I'm expecting the number of registered leaders to go down as well as more units decide that jumping through all the hoops to register adults just isn't worth the effort. Perhaps we will see Cubmasters and Scoutmaster who have left their units retained as leaders for rechartering. As the process of registering leaders gets ever more burdensome, I expect that more units will discover that all they really have to do is the minimum for rechartering.

I designed our pack Pinewood Derby to be easy to stage and to put all Scouts on an equal footing. We build all Pinewood Derby cars in about an hour or so on a Saturday, then spend another hour and a half with boys choosing who they want to race against and racing as many times as they wish. The winner of each heat gets a sticker for their Pinewood Derby Racing License, so boys compete to see how many stickers they can get. Boys may race 15-20 times or more, lining up with a buddy with the boys putting their cars on the track each time and picking them up after each race. We may run three heats a minute at a peak racing level. Compare that to the dull, slow rate of racing common at elaborate Pinewood Derby races. This works great for Tiger Cub, Wolves and Bears. Webelos Den Scouts can compete in the district Pinewood Derby race. They are often ready for a more competitive event. On that Pinewood Derby Saturday, each Scout gets a Pinewood Derby kit in a box. Parents are encouraged to bring wood working tools they have, and we usually have a good selection of hand saws, chisels, sandpaper, clamps, paint and other tools and gear. The Scouts then work with their parents in designing and building their cars, and can also go to any other adult for help doing particular tasks. So if Mom isn't much good at sawing, the Scout just seeks help from an adult who is good at that, and adults are always glad to help. It's a friendly atmosphere for all. Moms aren't left out and everyone has a good time. We buy some pizza and drinks when the racing starts. I'm not partial to overly competitive Pinewood Derbies that tend to have a lot of adult competition ladled on them. The model I describe above avoids that, and creates a level of competition with which most boys are happy. For those who want MORE competition, I point them to the district Pinewood Derby where they can get as much competition as they want.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

The past couple of years I've done the rechartering. I was pretty diligent in getting people registered as adult leaders, but if people doing committee work couldn't be persuaded to complete an application or YPT training, they didn't get registered. Nothing says a unit Treasurer must be registered. This summer I e-mailed everyone who needed to renew their YPT training or complete training for their position. No replies --- zero. So I'm fobbing off rechartering on the Committee Chair. You only HAVE to have people filling the mandatory positions needed for rechartering. People who aren't registered can still function as Committee Members --- even Assistant Scoutmasters and Den Leaders, as far as I know. Does this offend official policies on Youth Protection and other training? Sure it does. But when you erect too many hoops for people to jump through, people are going to quit jumping. That's where I'm at anyway. Perhaps the Committee Chair will want to do more jumping --- although I doubt it. The net result of all the BSA and council hubbub over YPT and training is that my aim is now to do the minimum required. I note however: I wont be doing the rechartering myself.

We've done a craft project at each of our Cub meetings this fall: September 12th Recruiting night: Cub Scouts and new boys and the parents made model rockets out of a sheet of paper and then launched them by stomping on a soda pop bottle rocket launcher September 17th-- firsat Tiger Cub Den meeting: New Tiger Cubs and their parents worked together to make a hot dog roasting stick, using small diameter steel wire cut to length using bolt cutters and making a wooden handle cut from a tree limb using a lopper. The handle was drilled with a hole that the wire fit in, and the wire was then glued into the handle. A separate plug of wood was drilled to form a guard for the end of the wire. We did a hike September 22nd and a hot dog roast using the new sticks at the end of the hike. October 1st the new Tiger Cubs made family albums that can also serve as scrapbooks for Cub Scout memorabilia. In each case parents worked with their Tiger Cub in making the project. Often Tiger Cubs needed at least some help in completing the project, but I figure that's what a Tiger Cub Partner is for. Hard to say how many times the parents just took over making the project, leaving the Tiger Cub with little to do but watch. I try to discourage that.

My bias is to make Scouting an affordable and relatively low budget program. If a family is motivated to do expensive activities for their son, they are welcome to do so, but that not something I'm inclined to work at. I have my doubts about the huge Scouting Disneyland programs and projects that seem to be the obsession of BSA national. The cost of maintenance being what it is, it seems likely to be a black hole sucking up dollars. Just not something I'm interested in. I'm working to get a new Tiger Cub Den up and running, to get a Webelos Den doing more adventurous activities, and to promote Cub Scout and Boy Scout recruiting and membership.

In my opinion, we usually ignore the fact the Scouting is in part Adult Leadership Training and Experience. Learning the methods of small group leadership is something adults learn in Scouting, not just youth. Monday I was involved in the first Tiger Cub Den meeting led by a new parent. The parent is an attorney but he still has some things to learn about managing a Tiger Cub Den meeting! Expecting people to lose things like medical forms is a no brainer. A smart precaution to avoid the difficulties that might cause might be to make a copy before handing the original back to parents, or perhaps keeping the original and giving parents back a copy. Part of being an experienced leader is understanding the weaknesses youth and parents are likely to experience and taking precautions to avoid the consequences. Of course youth and adults need to experience the consequences of poor personal management as well, so as to manage their own affairs better. When both leaders and followers are taking steps to manage such issues effectively, you are likely to have a minimum of problems.

Hello Joe Bob, > Personally, I think the knife, axe and saw introduction at IOLS provides a useful introduction to those skills that can be supplemented with practice. Fire starting is relatively straight forward to learn. But most of the rest require extensive practice and/or training to become competent as a leader, in my opinion. Completing a Merit Badge honestly provides Scouts with the ability to do the basics in many of these areas, but a lot more experience is needed to be a competent leader. And this thread appears to be about being a leader.

Once I was a zebra.... It was a BIG Wood Badge.

I'm afraid Baden P's last post is all too true. I started out with a fresh program four years ago, but it's been repeated several times. I'm out of ideas and other families haven't stepped up with new ideas. A pack for which I'm unit Commissioner has new leadership and is trying some exciting new things. They are doing the traditional Halloween party, but with a largely new program. It's nice to see and exciting for parents, and will probably be exciting for Cub Scouts when they see it. I attended the Pack Committee Meeting last night, which had eight parents plus myself as UC attending --- pretty good. The new Committee Chair has a lot of energy and new ideas, which is terrific to see.

As I think about it further, a Religious Emblem Co-ordinator might be recruited from among the parish members, someone not otherwise involved in Scouting who would like to inform parish members in the pack about the religious emblem program and to encourage and assist them in completing the award. It could be a way of expanding the pack leadership and building closer tied with the Chartered Organization, a Catholic parish in my case.