SeattlePioneer

Treat the remark as "No thanks" and go on to the next prospect. Unfortunately, some self righteous political actors are going to feel they have a license for boorish behavior. That doesn't mean we are entitled to respond in the same coin.

JM Hawkins describes the situation in my district very accurately, except the Boy Scout side is weak at the district level too. Frankly, as I read the BSA advice for how to run a district, "retired Scoutmasters" aren't recommended as district leaders. Instead, you should have able and ambitious business and community leaders taking charge of making the district run and recruiting volunteers. That would be FINE with me if it were happening. And indeed I'd like to see our district nominating Committee try out that model for a district chair. But it aint happening --- so far anyway. So I'm trying to find ways to make things work.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Personally, I wouldn't be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. I'd be looking carefully at who will be doing it, who is supporting it and who has approved it. Has it been approved by the Scoutmaster? That's the most critical decision maker. What are the expectations of the Scoutmaster for how such a program will be conducted? Frankly, once it gets started, it's probably going to roll over any opposition, since Scouts will be invested in a poor program, if poor it is.

Hello Two Cub, Thank you for your thoughtful post. No reason for me to take any offense. I'm struggling in a district that has provided excellent services for units, but that has been dwindling away as volunteers have left an few replacements found. I'm trying to figure out how to reverse that situation before there is a general collapse. I have a question:

> Abel hits a new low by a comparison with the Nazis. What a despicable character.

> I guess if the DE is motivated, he can be the Cubmaster for "many" packs. Sounds like a formula for a lot of weak units to me. If I were a DE and wanted to help get weak packs going and growing, I might be looking to expand the number of district level volunteers --- Unit Commissioners and Membership Committee in particular. Throwing your hands up and saying "It's not my job" doesn't sound like it would be of much help.

Abel Magwitch wants to make this issue the problem of BSA and Scouting. That's an easy and futile way to ignore a tough problem that has EVIL PEOPLE as the culprits, not Scouting. And as Beavah has tried to illustrate, going after such people is no easy task, even for the cops. FAR more difficult for BSA to deal with sly, stealthy people. If BSA attacks someone's reputation, you should EXPECT that families and children will refuse to testify to things they say happened, and you should EXPECT to be sued and pay huge damages if you can't prove in court what you claim happened. By and large, I suspect that BSA should be commended for trying to deal with this issue for many decades as best as possible. It's hardly surprising that some stealthy and devious and EVIL characters would not be deterred by what BSA has been able to do. After all --- the prisons are filled with evil lawbreakers. Most of them will be convicted again when they get out. I think BSA has made a good effort to deal with the problem over the decades, and very likely current efforts are better ---I hope.

Hello Abel, > Unfortunately, Abel provides us with an illustration of WHY district activities are important to units. To the list of things his units don't have that districts provide we might add: training camporees Cub Scout Day Camp Assistance in recruiting and forming new Packs, Troops and Crews Unit Commissioners Merit Badge Universities (whether you like 'em or not) Council fundraising Advancement (Eagle Scouts and recording unit advancement) Camp promotion and outdoor activities Service Programs (Scouting for Food) I suggest that if the district volunteers were really up to doing their job THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO EMPLOY A DISTRICT EXECUTIVE!

For those units that participate in the Scout popcorn sale, what methods do you use to manage your sale and make it a meaningful part of your program? I say MEANINGFUL, since I think it should be a positive Scouting experience for Scouts and families, not something they are flogged into doing. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

> Ummm. This was the first mistake. Completing the original project should have been the objective! > This was the second mistake! The Institutional Head should have been referred to the Scout who is leading the project! Few things are as common as discovering that the scope of work on a construction task expands when doing work on an old existing structure. This should be a lesson for the Eagle Scout ---- PLANNING for such an issue should have been a part of the project! I would say that carrying out the original project is the responsibility of the Scout. He ought to be prepared to carry out the original project as specified and if that involves additional time and materials ---- tough! The beneficiary of the project isn't entitled to unilaterally expand the scope of the project or impose additional costs and time on those who agreed to carry out the original project. If the beneficiary now desires an EXPANDED project, that is something to be negotiated with the Scout who is carrying out the project. The Scout may need the beneficiary to supply additional labor and materials to do the additional work desired. Or perhaps he will hold the beneficiary to the SIGNED agreement to carry out the original project. The main issue here is that the Scout Troop --- probably the adults involved, have allowed themselves to be involved in managing the project. If that were left just to the Scout, the relationship between the Troop and the COR would not be at issue. My inclination would be to put the onus of completing the project as agreed back on the Scout where it belongs!(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello ghermanno, I'm just pointing out that units will do burdensome tasks that are nuisances when they need to do so. I think we need to convince units that extends to a broader array of things.

Personally, I have a hard time finding much of a use for "The Law of the Pack." I'd be glad to get some ideas on how to make it a meaningful part of the Cub Scout program.

> I had exactly the same experience when I joined the Eagles at age 49. I was interested in a service oriented club. What I found was an eating and drinking club. Never went back.

We have four WebIIs this year for the first time, so we need to establish a program for dues and crossover and such. Families benefit generously from popcorn sales, getting a free membership for selling $200 and 30% of sales above that as Scout Accounts. Also, our Webelos Den Leader just hasn't been applying for awards for boys, so not much expense there. We also plan to allow Scout Account balances to be transferred to troops that have Scout Accounts, and they can be used for other Scouting related expenses. I'd like to have a no cost way for WebelosIIs to transfer into Boy Scouts. The neighboring troop charges $25 + BSA and Boys Life fees pro rated. WebIIs transferring into that Troop would need to pay the Boys Life fee prorated + the $25 fee. I might negotiate with the troop about that fee. I'm not sure what it goes for right now.

>"Units tow the line to do rechartering, a council function."> Just what I said. Rechartering is a huge nuisance that is imposed on units by the council and national. But they do it because they MUST.

Hello Scout Nut, > Thanks for describing your experience. Perhaps I'll try your methods tonight and see how it works. I have the Tiger Cub Den Handbook in Spanish and English and I'm expecting to hand that out to parents as I use it to describe some of the program I'm doing. I minimize or avoid talking to parents during den meetings. I figure it's the boy's time, and talking to parents over the heads of the boys is boring for boys. Often I talk to boys in ways that the parents are encourage to hear, though. So when I'm talking about the Bobcat award to boys, my aim will be to have parents following along in the Tiger Cub Handbook in English or Spanish. How did the Shared Leadership concept work with Spanish speakers as leaders? I'm imagining it would be an interesting experience for English speaking boys and parents to have the den led in Spanish!

I'm interested in finding someone other than ME to do the rechartering. It's grown to be more of a PITA each of the last two years I've done it. I sent out e-mails to all leaders whose YPT is expiring and those who need to get training to qualify for rechartering. I pointed out that summer was a good time to get that out of the way and get the paper work in to me. Results: NOTHING. I can see that a new qualification for rechartering will be being the pack nag to get this stuff done.

Who does the rechartering for your unit and how is the task organized? That thankless task has been made a good deal more difficult by Youth Protection Training requirements and mandatory training now required by many councils. The person doing the rechartering can often shift people around to different jobs. and may have plausible reasons for doing so. A good deal of mischief could be done by someone with a mind to do so and unit leaders who aren't paying attention. Anyway, how do you get this done?

> Units tow the line to do rechartering, a council function. I imagine that 30-40 unit volunteers help organize and present our Cub Scout Day Camp. If you can make a case to Troop and Packs that they need to do more to support district activities, perhaps more help will be forthcoming. I can't say I've figured out how to prove this theory though. The idea of inviting CORs to attend is an opening shot. After all, they are supposed to be there anyway. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Once again we have Merlyn_LeRoy exaggerating what Scouting officials might have known in order to besmirch the name of BSA. The simple fact is that allegations are very tough to prove, but making public attacks on someone's character can lead to very expensive lawsuits. Kicking someone out or allowing someone to resign might very well be the best and smartest decision to have made especially when provable facts are limited. Whether BSA's current policy of reporting allegations to the police makes much of a difference in practice is an interesting question. For Merlyn_LeRoy to say that Scouting "abetted" molesters by keeping unproven allegations confidential is an outrageous calumny, but oh so typical of Merlyn_LeRoy's hate campaign against BSA and Scouting.

Hello 5 Year, > Excellent post! Your early parent meeting is just what we'll be doing September 24, although it wont be "mandatory." Instead, we'll be coming off a terrific activity at our recruiting night, a model first den meeting and a terrific hike and hot dog roast. A series of hit activities for new parents provides an incentive to see how that's done at the parent meeting. But I'm all in favor of bribery and treats ---- do you have any you recommend in particular? Also, I favor limiting parent meetings to no more than an hour. If parents know there is a realistic timetable and they wont be talked to death, they are a lot more likely to attend. Personally, I wouldn't do a long description of positions. I should have our customized (brief) family survey forms which will allow us to tentatively match people up with jobs that need to be done. So we can ask people to do specific tasks. Hmmmm--- I have a new Tiger Cub father who was in Cub Scouts and an Eagle Scout. We have an overworked Cubmaster who is also a Bear Den Leader. How soon might you hit that new parent up to be Cubmaster?

> Heck, we have several vets who are parents of Cub Scouts, and we had one Cub Scout Mom whose husband was in Afghanistan when the family joined the pack. I did a Veteran's Day recognition recognition of Vets during the November pack meeting, asking Vets to come forward, recount their military service and the unit they served in. We had vets from the Korean War, Vietnam, the Gulf War and Iran/Iraq recognized in two years. That was one of my favorite activities since you never knew who might be stepping up, including other family members who were visiting the pack meeting.

Hello Fehler, Nice! We make the popcorn sale optional. Those who want to pay cash are welcome to do so and skip the popcorn sale. Those who want to sell popcorn can probably get a free membership and pay for books, uniforms, activity fees or whatever. It's up to each family. Most families got at least the free pack membership last year. Some got a good deal more in credits to pay for uniforms, day camp and such.

>"Pointing people to a canned program is not a formula for a quality program in my experience." On several occasions I've lost families who've joined the pack and whom I've NEVER been able to communicate with after that. One of my aims this fall to avoid a repetition of that problem is to try to find someone who will take charge of communicating with those Spanish speaking families. Another idea is that of collecting Spanish speaking families as a Tiger Cub Den as I've described. My hope is that those families can use whatever combination of Spanish and English they find convenient to participate in the Tiger Cub program and activities. I want to give those Tiger Cub Partners the role in the den and with their Tiger Cub that they are supposed to have, and which English speaking parents have as a matter of course. Maybe that wont work, but I'm inclined to give it a try and see what happens. We had several poor Spanish families join the pack at our recruiting night --- people who completed Spanish BSA applications and listed their occupation as "laborer" or "cleaner" self employed. I'll be damned if I want to see them put up scarce money for a program for their children and then leave them isolated by their language. One of my MAIN AIMS this year is to find ways to make a primarily English speaking Cub Scout pack work for Spanish speaking Latino families. That's something I've been researching since October, 2010, and THIS is when I'm going to find out if I can make that work. So far I've done reasonably well recruiting Latino families. Now the challenge is making the program work for those families. That is a substantial challenge. I believe Basement Dweller has had experience with that.

Hello Thomas, The new IH sounds like a manager with problems who is looking for ways of dealing with those problems. Can't blame him for checking out possible resources. Sounds like he needs a course in recruiting Cub Scouts that he could apply to recruiting more Veteran members. I suppose that advice would be unwelcome? I'd go with the flow and see what happens. Basement comments on possibly switch COs could be something to keep in mind if the issues don't blow over. I don't suppose there is a Veterans of Foreign Wars post nearby?